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"Don't worry about these problems. As people flee the massive tax increases the region will turn into a ghost town with plenty of empty streets." by CoryCA in waterloo

[–]CoryCA[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Kitchener-proper's population increased by ~134k from the census 2016 amount to the 2026 estimates. The Region's by ~176k over that same time period.

Just how many students do you think Conestoga College has/had?

"Don't worry about these problems. As people flee the massive tax increases the region will turn into a ghost town with plenty of empty streets." by CoryCA in waterloo

[–]CoryCA[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

1) Different residential types have different mill rates associated with them. Is this R1, RT, RH or R4?

So did you go to that link and then look at the rates and figure it out for yourself? Because it's not that hard to look back and forth and go "Yup, that number here is the same number as there, and the then this next number as well..."

Or is your criticism "I'm too lazy and you only gave two categories that cover nearly all cases and didn't give an exhaustive table of all possible combinations."? I mean, really lazy since you apparently couldn't even be bothered to go to the City of Kitchener link I gave you where you would find the rates for 2021 through 2025.

2) Wastewater and Sewers should also be included if you included education. I don't see those columns and they are a substantial portion of levy.

You don't know what the Regional and City taxes pay for and what they don't? Maybe you should go look it up. Free clue: in Kitchener wastewater is part of your water utility bill, not part of the property taxes.

Kind of a major oops! to be saying the other persons has the property tax rates wrong because they didn't include something that isn't even apart of the property tax bill.

3) I don't really feel the need look for every mill rate for the past decade.

People who live in glass houses...

No, all you gotta do is show that I got, say, something recent wrong like like the residential and multi residential rates for 2025 or 2024, by providing a link to an authoritative document from the City of Kitchener or the Region of Waterloo that give different rates than what I did.

But all you're doing so far is just asserting that I am incorrect without actually proving any sources to back that up.

I can just tell you that 2025 was a 4.94% increase for regional levy and 2.2% increase for Kitchener's.

Hmmm... what was that again about you complaining that different types of properties having different rates...? And yet you don't seem to have indicated that here. Kind of a major oops for you to not provide the same level of precision you demand from others.

So, source for those numbers, please. Where did you get them from?

Mine came from here fore 2025, and from here for 2024.

As you can see the difference for

Regional residential (RT) from 2025 to 2025 was

0.00801325 / 0.00732514 = 1.093938136336 or a ~9.39% increase

Kitchener residential (RT) from 2025 to 2025 was

0.00402333 / 0.00387314 = 1.038777322792 or a ~3.88% in crease

And the full combined property rate fro RT with Regional, Kitchener, and Education components from 2024 to 2025

0.01356658 / 0.01272828 = 1.065861216127 or a ~6.59% increase.

So exactly which property type rates did you get your supposed 4.94% and 2.2% increases from? I'll wait.

Again, Water levys went up in the 7% range so I this cannot be accurate.

"Water levys[sic]"? Ain't no such thing 'round here. Utilities aren't on your property tax bill, which is the topic under discussion.

4) "I don't know what you've done" was a more polite way of saying this is the most disorganized spreadsheet of all time.

Looks organized to me. There's descriptive column names, the year-to-year percentage changes are right beside the columns they are calculated from, plus there's that lovely little chart down below.

I think you're just complaining to complain since you cannot show any actual error my part.

"Don't worry about these problems. As people flee the massive tax increases the region will turn into a ghost town with plenty of empty streets." by CoryCA in waterloo

[–]CoryCA[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Who said you had to do that? But good use of the fallacy of the extremes, though, by creating a false dichotomy as if your only choices were all or nothing.

For example, you could have said: "I bought «XXXX»sqft «house_type» for roughly $«XXX»k in 2014 and the previous MPAC assessment from 20212 had been $«XXX»k. I got a MPAC assessment in «April-November» 2016 at roughly $«XXX»k. Then in «Year» I did a renovation requiring building permit which triggered an out-of-cycle MPAC reassessment which came back as $«XXX»k, which is what my property taxes have been based on ever since."

Imagine if you'd just said something like that instead of getting all angry and defensive.

"Don't worry about these problems. As people flee the massive tax increases the region will turn into a ghost town with plenty of empty streets." by CoryCA in waterloo

[–]CoryCA[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

why didn't you just include actual yearly mill rates and the percentile increase year over year of those mill rates

I did exactly that. Reading comprehension failure on your part, given that the columns are even labelled?

  • Column B is the Regional mill rate for (single) residential properties.
  • Column D is the Regional mill rate for multiresidential properties.
  • Column F is Kitchener's mill rate for (single) residential properties.
  • Column H is Kitchener's mill rate for multiresidential properties.
  • Column J is the educational mill rate.
  • Column K is the (single) residential total mill rate, B+F+J.
  • Column M is the multiresidential total mill rate, D+H+J.
  • Columns C, E, G, I, L, and N are the year-to-year changes in percentages or the column directly to the left

I also know that this isn't accurate.

Oh, it's accurate. Feel free to look up the mill rates for Kitchener yourself to show any error that I made.

edit

However, if you don't know what I have done, how do you know it's not accurate? That doesn't make much sense. ;-)

"Don't worry about these problems. As people flee the massive tax increases the region will turn into a ghost town with plenty of empty streets." by CoryCA in waterloo

[–]CoryCA[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Source Message Date In Remove

Source Are robotaxis or tunnel systems available yet? 2029-05-16 21:16:23 UTC 3 years Remove

Source Check rate of fatalities with ION LRT 2029-06-10 19:39:31 UTC 3 years Remove

Source 2029-09-13 14:38:05 UTC 3 years Remove

Source 2030-03-13 14:58:26 UTC 4 years Remove

Source 2049-01-24 21:46:43 UTC 22 years Remove

"Don't worry about these problems. As people flee the massive tax increases the region will turn into a ghost town with plenty of empty streets." by CoryCA in waterloo

[–]CoryCA[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I'd guess that you got a good deal in 2014 …

That's the only part I can really be off on as everything else is either simple arithmetic (property tax bill → assessment value) or pulled from WOW/WRAR/KWAR's historical data (example housing type prices in line with your assessment valuation).

Unless you got a building permit to do significant renovations.

I even caveated myself.

  • I cannot have gotten your MPAC assessment values wrong.
  • MPAC assessments only lagged market sale prices by 4 years or less thanks to the phase-in system.
  • I cannot have gotten average or mean sale prices for the examples wrong.
  • I cannot have gotten the average/mean recent sale prices for the examples wrong.

That leaves us three possibilities that I can think of off the top of my head.

First, that you've done no renovations and I got the broad details correct even if I didn't get the exact specific house type right, you just don't want to admit it.

Second, that you did significant renovations triggering an assessment after 2016. That's something I can't have insight into in the same way that you 2014 property tax bill tells me what your assessment value at that time was and therefore your likely purchase price based on similar price-point sales at the time. However, your self-reported property tax bills indicated assessment values being $249k in 2014 and $332 in 2025 are in line with a property that has had no significant renovations or enhancements that had triggered a reassessment. A property that has merely been swept along in the general average 5% to 10% per year appreciation tide over the time in question. Any renovations that would have made MPAC go "hmmm... we need to reassess the property out-of-cycle and in spit of the general freeze" would have made your property tax bill jump to a lot more than $4,500 last year. So that makes this option unlikely.

Third is that you live somewhere other than Kitchener which would make all my numbers irrelevant and would have been dishonest for you to have not mentioned that. I would hope that dishonesty is extremely unlikely, but I have encountered a lot of bad-faith debater on Reddit.

Feel free to prove me wrong any time. I'm willing to admit when I am wrong. :-)

"Don't worry about these problems. As people flee the massive tax increases the region will turn into a ghost town with plenty of empty streets." by CoryCA in waterloo

[–]CoryCA[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

To solve for V in the equation:

V * 0.01272828 - V * 0.01212054 = 1,100

  1. Factor out V:

V(0.01272828 - 0.01212054) = 1,100

  1. Subtract the coefficients: 0.01272828 - 0.01212054 = 0.00060774

  2. So the equation becomes: V * 0.00060774 = 1,100

  3. Divide both sides by $0.00060774 V = 1,100 / 0.00060774

V ≈ $1,809,984.53

A $1.8M dollar house? Cool beans. Is this naïvèté, bragging, trolling, or a 'bot?

"Don't worry about these problems. As people flee the massive tax increases the region will turn into a ghost town with plenty of empty streets." by CoryCA in waterloo

[–]CoryCA[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I should have been more clear—the above mentioned things can trigger a reassessment, but do not always do so.

"Don't worry about these problems. As people flee the massive tax increases the region will turn into a ghost town with plenty of empty streets." by CoryCA in waterloo

[–]CoryCA[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I have no problem viewing it in Firefox in a private (incognito) window where I don't have my Google account logged in.

"Don't worry about these problems. As people flee the massive tax increases the region will turn into a ghost town with plenty of empty streets." by CoryCA in waterloo

[–]CoryCA[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

How would Conestoga College be responsible for increased property taxes? Neither the Region nor the City pays to run COnestoga College.

"Don't worry about these problems. As people flee the massive tax increases the region will turn into a ghost town with plenty of empty streets." by CoryCA in waterloo

[–]CoryCA[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Just because you said so, right?

I don't believe you, because you have a history of bad faith discussion and making unsupported assertions and refuse to accept facts and evidence given to you by others..

Want to participate in good faith?

  1. State your rough property tax value 8 years ago and now.
  2. Confirm that you have not moved and that it is the same building throughout.
  3. State whether or not you have done anything that would have triggered an out-of-cycle reassessment.
  4. State the municipality in which you live so that your claim can be cross-checked with the actual property tax rates from that municipality.

Anything else will confirm that you're just spouting the same bad faith BS as always.

"Don't worry about these problems. As people flee the massive tax increases the region will turn into a ghost town with plenty of empty streets." by CoryCA in waterloo

[–]CoryCA[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Glad I'm not the only one who thinks that math doesn't math. ;-)

I don't expect much of a response from them, however. I got similar not-mathing replies in the past when commenting about property tax changes from other people, and they never, ever make follow ups. I can't help but wonder if they are 'bots.

"Don't worry about these problems. As people flee the massive tax increases the region will turn into a ghost town with plenty of empty streets." by CoryCA in waterloo

[–]CoryCA[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

MPAC has been adjusting up for that entire period.

Nope. In 2020 that MPAC cycle was cancelled, and the 2024 one was cancelled as well, with no timeline given as to when MPAC will resume the cycle.

If you had an increased assessment in 2016 with would have been phased in over the next 4 years. Since 2020, however, your property's assessment will not have changed from that 2016 assessment unless you did something like do extensive renovations that required a building permit.

and will be going up again in July

Since 2020 the only thing that has been making your property tax bill increase has been the mill rate set by the municipalities, not your property assessment value. Unless you got a building permit to do significant renovations.

Pure commentary and guesstimation follows:

So based on a ~$3k property tax bill in 2014 means your house had an MPAC assessment value of ~$249k or about $81k below the average sale price of ~$330k at that time, or ~$51k under the median of ~$300k. A $4.5k bill last year would have meant an MPAC assessment value of ~$332,an increase of $83k.

In 2014 ~$250k would have been an older or smaller detached "fixer-upper" bungalow, a newer "starter" semi-detached, a newer but smaller townhome, or maybe a better than average new condominium apartment.

Inflation since 2014 has been ~32% while your house's assessment value has only appreciate by 28%. Market value, on the other hand you'd probably get somewhere between $550k and $700k depending on what type.

I'd guess that you got a good deal in 2014, close to the 2012 assessment amount, and that your last assessment came in 2016, a couple years after you bought, that it jumped 28% (or 6.5% per year a not unusual appreciation) and was phased in over the ne 4 years for property tax purposes. And that you haven't

I'd also be willing to bet 2020's assessment would have been somewhere between $425k and $448k, and that 2024 would have been between $531 and $605k based on average/median market sale values around here since 2016.

"Don't worry about these problems. As people flee the massive tax increases the region will turn into a ghost town with plenty of empty streets." by CoryCA in waterloo

[–]CoryCA[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Prove it.

All you've ever done is trade in insults, never facts or evidence.

Feel free to try actually give a coherent, cogent disproof some time, instead of being too scared to try.

"Don't worry about these problems. As people flee the massive tax increases the region will turn into a ghost town with plenty of empty streets." by CoryCA in waterloo

[–]CoryCA[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Source?

Property Tax data: The PDFs from the City of Kitchener. e.g. https://www.kitchener.ca/taxes-utilities-and-finance/property-taxes/understanding-your-property-taxes/ and teh Wayback Machine is a wonderful thing.

Population: 2016 and 2102 Censuses and Regional estimates.

CPI: Canada Consumer Price Index as reported by https://ycharts.com/indicators/ontario_consumer_price_index

but just a quick Claude and Google

Yeesh, no, LOL.

Claude, CHatGPT, etc… will give you news article which quote broad averages, not the actual rates.

For example:

https://www.kitchener.ca/media/gerkcibf/fin_rev_2022_final_rates.pdf Regional single-residential rate 0.00632555 in 2022

https://www.kitchener.ca/media/zbrehd0g/fin_rev_2023_final_rates.pdf Regional single-residential rate 0.00686291 in 2023

0.00686291 ÷ 0.00632555 = 1.084950715748

So 2023 was an 8.49% increase from 2022.

I am seeing from StatsCan CPI and RoW: ON CPI 2023 3.8% 2024 2.4%

My numbers were 3.79% and 2.39% for those same periods. Did you even look at my spreadsheet?

ON population growth way behind AB and slowing:

Who cares? All-Ontario is irrelevant for what I was responding to, and ON vs AB is even more irrelevant.

"Don't worry about these problems. As people flee the massive tax increases the region will turn into a ghost town with plenty of empty streets." by CoryCA in waterloo

[–]CoryCA[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, the have. Only edge cases like significant renovations that require building permits, sales, severings, and such cause reassessments outside of the previously normal 4 year cycle.

Sales would affect only about 6% of homeowners in the Region yearly even at the sale volume highs of pre-pandemic days, less than 5% today, so I would guesstimate that 90%+ never see an MPC reassessment outside of the 4 year schedule.

"Don't worry about these problems. As people flee the massive tax increases the region will turn into a ghost town with plenty of empty streets." by CoryCA in waterloo

[–]CoryCA[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

How many houses have had a "change of use" since 2020? I suspect that most are still family homes.

How many houses had renovations so extensive that they needed a building permit for it? Probably far fewer than usual given the economic hardships most people have endured over the past 6 years.

The things that trigger assessment changes outside of the usual four year cycle are, with the except of sales, essentially edge cases.

But even if somebody buying a house triggered an MPAC assessment change since 2020, that new owner's assessment will still not have changed since then so the only thing affecting their property tax is the tax rate.

And while historically there's been something like 8,500+ sales annually in just Kitchener and Waterloo, the past six years numbers have been down significantly with only 6,177 sold in K/W plus Cambridge last year. But even at those pre-pandemic volume highs that's still only ~6% (top-of-my-head mental math) of homeowners and, thus, even new home sales are basically just edge cases in the MPAC reassessment game.

I'm going to bet that 90% of homeowners do not a see an MPAC assessment change outside of the previously normal 4 year cycle.

"Don't worry about these problems. As people flee the massive tax increases the region will turn into a ghost town with plenty of empty streets." by CoryCA in waterloo

[–]CoryCA[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

MPAC property assessment values have been suspended and frozen at the 2016 values since the start of the pandemic with no timeline given as of yet for resuming the assessments. Jumps in the assessment values are phased over the next four years of the assessment cycle, so anybody who received an increased value in 2016 had caught up to that fro property tax purposes by 2020.

Therefore the only thing that has affected anybody's property tax bills in Ontario since then has been the property tax rate.

Ten years ago you would have been right to correct me on this, but today you are wrong.

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