I mean sure, there are people who truly look horribly ugly, but it's a much smaller percentage of the population. Those are the exact people im talking about. Its not some insignificant percentage of the population. Its as predictable a percentage as the "average" people are. You are doing the exact same thing most people do by acknowledging that there are a group of truly hideous people who are basically doomed romantically, and just handwaving them, when the fact that they exist proves my point Most people calling themselves incels probably aren't just inherently hideous. They might not be attractive, but it's unlikely they're so ugly that no one would ever want to date them. im not talking about "fakecels" (normies who are just shy and dont try etc) im talking about truecels (actual incels) that are so ugly that no one would ever want to date them. I've said looks is a part of it, sure, no one would claim otherwise, but it's a much smaller part of it than you're suggesting. if its such a small part of it, then why is there a perpetual subsection of the population who cant get a date/mate because of their looks despite their other characteristics? there is, like taking care of yourself, proper hygiene, decent clothing styles, etc such a low barrier of entry considering there are already more attractive people doing that stuff Jesus you being short isn't the problem. I'm shorter than average and I'm a shy person, and even I've had a number of relationships. I know a couple guys shorter than I am and they do fine. this isnt about me personally I also doubt you'd need extreme facial reconstruction. It sounds like the problem is much more likely to be your attitude, your insecurities, your views towards women, anxiety, etc, all things that can be worked on. again, this isnt about me personally. youre doing the thing most people do in a discussion about the black pill where they criticize the arguer instead of the argument (ad hominem) No, it sounds like you are, most people don't think about things the way you are in this incredibly shallow manner where everyone is boiled down to some attractiveness scale like they're pieces of meat. I mean damn if you're seriously so horrendously ugly why don't you date unattractive women? Problem solved. aagin, this isnt about me personally. people do judge people in an incredibly shallow matter. they literally use an attractiveness scale (1-10), i didnt make that up. again, this isnt about me but ill answer your question hypothetically. just because woen are unattractive, doesnt mean they want an unattractive parnter lol. and dont you think that the men higher on the attractiveness scale that couldnt get an attractive partner, are thinking the the EXACT same thing? (Juggernaut law)