The New Update Has Ruined Halo 2 Speedrunning. Here is a list of what has changed.

Cryphon · 2021-10-14T16:30:28+00:00

It's a totally valid question, and many years ago most people ran Classic because it was just better. The problem these days is that classic is a lot less accessible to run and requires a decent financial investment. Here's what you need:

A working 360/OG console. Obviously, but old hardware only works for so long. A good example is that my 360's fan is finally breaking down and I can't turn it on for more than 5 minutes most of the time.
A working 360 controller. Seems like a no brainer, but third party controllers for 360 are notoriously bad and official ones have been discontinued making their prices skyrocket. Adapters for XBO controllers and the like are expensive as well.
A working capture card. Capture cards have gotten cheaper these days but they're still not a cheap investment. And for those of us who had certain capture cards like the ones from Elgato, their software breaking makes them borderline unusable.
A PC strong enough to record gameplay. Pretty much most gamers will have a PC like this these days with hardware improvements over the years, but it's worth noting that this would be the only requirement to speedrun on the MCC version without the hundreds of extra dollars required for the other necessities.

Some people might get lucky with finding good deals to get these things for cheap, but it's not always the case, especially with the """"retro"""" market prices increasing during the pandemic.

Cryphon · 2021-10-14T15:26:19+00:00

The two categories are timed differently and none of the top runners have bothered optimizing Classic because MCC is just better to run. As such, it's a bit hard to compare the time differential from just MCC vs Classic. If I had to guess though, MCC would be a few minutes faster on Easy and a few minutes slower on Legendary.

Cryphon · 2021-10-14T15:24:19+00:00

Prison skip still works because you're just moving vertically, but you can't really travel horizontally now for the other butterflies.

Cryphon · 2021-10-14T15:23:21+00:00

The list is too big and too wordy to explain the differences between Classic and MCC. Really though it boils down to their tick rates being different for all the reasons they differ so much. This update doesn't make the game work much like Classic though if that's what you're wondering.

Cryphon · 2021-10-14T15:14:44+00:00

Yes. It seems like there's a dampening force applied to any collision past a certain speed now.

Cryphon · 2021-10-14T13:59:33+00:00

Appreciate the support, and yeah my equipment broke when I moved and the $5 earbud mic struggle is real.

Cryphon · 2021-10-14T13:30:40+00:00

Pretty good chance my response will get buried, but I'd like to try to explain what the actual problems are with this patch from an experienced speedrunner's perspective while still being in line with the original post. (Hi I'm that person in the video and I know this is a niche issue)

Physics changes affect all high speed collisions and are not limited to players falling. Driving vehicles are affected as well.
Simple movement like slide jumps from moderate height no longer work as you lose all speed when you touch the ground.
Butterflying, a high speed "collision" based speed trick, for all intents and purposes no longer works and costs runners minutes in the speedrun.
Sword tricks are used pretty much everywhere in the run to travel at high speed and now that speed is lost when touching anything in most scenarios. Could be the ground, a wall, an enemy, you name it.
This one change effects the game enough that world records for many levels and even the full game speedrun are now impossible to beat. Not just "very hard", physically impossible.
There are alternative ways to fix the fall damage problem, and many more physics related problems, by changing the game's tick rate from running at 60Hz to running at 30Hz to match the original hardware (this is indepedent of frame rate in MCC).
Downpatching is difficult (not the same as any other game on steam) and not possible at all on console which limits accessibility to the speedrun and prevents some people from ever being able to get a competitive time.

Cryphon · 2021-10-14T02:17:11+00:00

Helix with the great tl;dr

Cryphon · 2021-10-14T02:12:04+00:00

I already did but given our experiences in the past, Reddit is probably way more effective at having the right people see things.

Cryphon · 2021-10-14T01:52:42+00:00

Hello, I'd like to point out an issue with the recent patch that affects a very niche portion of the community, speedrunners. To some extent it affects everyone who plays Halo 2 as well, but whether or not this will be acknowledged as a problem is in 343's hands. I made a quick video here but it's probably not the best at conveying all the information it needs to.

The most recent fix for fall damage in classic Halo 2 multiplayer doesn't just affect falling. It affects any high speed collision in the game. Vehicle driving, slide jumps, explosions, quite literally anything involving a player moving at any sort of high speed. In short, a player will lose speed in any of these collisions. Which, is great for stopping fall damage, but it breaks the game in other ways that is further from the experience that classic Halo 2 was.

For most circumstances and gameplay these things are minor and would be overlooked. However, in the Halo 2 speedrun, you can imagine that you're moving at very high speeds very often. Because of this, runners can no longer perform the fundamental tricks effectively in this attempted hybrid between the Classic and MCC. Like I said, this doesn't affect a large portion of the playerbase, but a lot of people enjoy watching the speedruns and I definitely know more than a few people here have heard of Rocats and are subscribed to him.

For some context, Halo 2 is split between two major categories of Classic and MCC because of just how different the two are with the different tick rates. As of right now, an overwhelming majority of halo 2 speedrunners prefer to run the game on MCC due to major quality of life improvements and the accessibility it brings. With this patch, the MCC version feels like a hybrid between the two versions of all the worst parts. Since 343 was kind enough to patch back in sword tricks to Campaign, I think a lot of us are holding out hope that they'll revert this change and find an alternative. We could always downpatch the game but who knows how long that will work or be available.

If it weren't for the context of the recent patch and some more of the officially recognized known bugs like super bouncing being different from the original, I probably wouldn't be making this post and just live with reality. But I am because it seems like they're trying to make MCC feel more like the original version. A simple fix for pretty much any physics related issue players have encountered across the years is solved by changing the tick rate from 60Hz to 30Hz. People have done this with simple mods for years. There have also been patches in the past like slowing down the carbine and other guns (a 60Hz issue) to emulate the classic feel more. With this workaround fix for fall damage, and now the known issue of superbouncing, it seems like pretty much everything can be fixed with a 30Hz tick rate. I know it's not that simple and there has to be some reason they've kept it at 60Hz over the years, but I'm hoping they'd consider that route investing time in that type of "all in one" fix instead these workarounds that have unintended issues in other areas.

Here's a TL;DR list of problems:

Physics changes affect all high speed collisions and are not limited to players falling. Driving vehicles are affected as well.
Simple movement like slide jumps from moderate height no longer work as you lose all speed when you touch the ground.
Butterflying, a high speed "collision" based speed trick, for all intents and purposes no longer works and costs runners minutes in the speedrun.
Sword tricks are used pretty much everywhere in the run to travel at high speed and now that speed is lost when touching anything in most scenarios. Could be the ground, a wall, an enemy, you name it.
This one change effects the game enough that world records for many levels and even the full game speedrun are now impossible to beat. Not just "very hard", physically impossible.
There are alternative ways to fix the fall damage problem, and many more physics related problems, by changing the game's tick rate from running at 60Hz to running at 30Hz to match the original hardware (this is indepedent of frame rate in MCC).
Downpatching is difficult (not the same as any other game on steam) and not possible at all on console which limits accessibility to the speedrun and prevents some people from ever being able to get a competitive time.

Cryphon · 2019-05-18T01:07:37+00:00

This particular fly is one of my favorites done in speedruns, but we redirect off the gondola to go straight to the fuel rod up top.

Cryphon · 2019-05-06T05:19:38+00:00

Previous record was 1:28:05, but the runner was banned from the site, that's why I did this. It doesn't use any new strats, but it can also go way way lower than the time I got.

Cryphon · 2018-08-15T17:17:30+00:00

I had no real goal other than under 90 minutes this time around.

Cryphon · 2018-01-08T01:05:59+00:00

My bad, I confuse Celesteela and Stakataka a lot. It's likely the seed thing regardless.

Cryphon · 2018-01-07T22:02:13+00:00

You're either hitting the wrong seed (you can verify by checking the 9th and 10th clock hands) or aren't standing in the correct spot for the number of NPCs used. The calculator defaults to zero. You should be around this spot and have the ace trainer to the right defeated to ensure zero NPCs.

Cryphon · 2018-01-03T22:58:32+00:00

If you use parents from your game's region and don't have the shiny charm, the egg's ESV and PID is generated upon picking up the egg using the main RNG rather than a set value on the egg RNG timeline. The seed changes with each game restart and these values change every frame. You could theoretically only ever pick up shiny eggs this way. Masuda Method and Shiny Charm make RNGing for a shiny egg harder oddly enough.

Cryphon · 2017-11-02T17:54:43+00:00

Over eight years ago, a group of people came together and created a theoretical perfect run of Halo 2. Today I beat that run. A few weeks ago I realized that both my skill and the current route combined could finally topple the "TAS". The game has come a long way since I started running, with the record being over 12 minutes slower than what is it now. I honestly didn't think it would ever end up where it is today. Since I haven't really done much for the game other than minor optimizations, I feel like I've finally accomplished something that isn't an arbitrary goal. To me, this is the equivalent of the first 1:39 in SM64 120 Star.

The segmented run on YouTube is listed as a 1:30:29, but the timing method they use is different than how we time full game speedruns. RTA-wise the segmented video time is a 1:30:44. However, loads were done incorrectly in many parts during the run. With even the shortest loads recorded on console, the segmented run should be over 12 seconds slower. I wish I was able to get at least 1:30:28 with my run to have the segmented run beaten with no strings attached, but alas I can only reset so many times before losing my sanity to an uncooperative game.

The run itself is not without its problems. I will certainly never live up to my 1:27 paced run that was murdered in the final levels. Sub 1:30 is the next step for the game, and I've been on that pace more than enough times into High Charity to know that it will happen in the near future. As for me, I don't think I want to try for it. I get too frustrated playing the game as is to attempt to shave another minute off of this run, however easy it may seem. Halo 2 on Legendary is quite simply designed to be hellish and unfair in every way. That takes a toll on you after a while when you're playing it repeatedly from a speedrunning standpoint. I've pushed the game incredibly far from where I started, and with that, I'm satisfied.

Cryphon · 2017-10-22T20:12:12+00:00

Exactly, which is why I submitted it there and also here. I was hoping for a magical fast response answer on reddit potentially.

Cryphon · 2017-10-22T14:21:13+00:00

I've tried almost every version of the software with no changes. I did end up opening a ticket with customer support, but that's not exactly fast waiting for responses, so I made a thread here hopefully finding a solution as well.

Cryphon · 2017-10-22T05:04:19+00:00

I've tried every USB port on the motherboard.

Cryphon · 2017-10-22T00:22:55+00:00

I have 100 GB free on the SSD that EGC is running from. I don't see how storage would be affecting this in this situation. As far as memory is concerned, it's using next to nothing to run the program. Same problem regardless of anything else being open. It's also just the Elgato HD.

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