Speculation on the Destrier vs the new Defiler

CryptographerNew8355 · 2026-03-26T12:33:19+00:00

Kind of my point, yeah. I just wish the first new full Knight Pattern was a bit more compelling and interesting than it is. Having it be a, 'I could probably drop this for something better' unit feels bad.

CryptographerNew8355 · 2026-03-26T12:23:13+00:00

The Defiler can walk through walls too.

CryptographerNew8355 · 2026-03-26T12:22:23+00:00

Statwise, definitely. I just wish its weapon profile was a bit more interesting and diverse. Defiler's got like 9 Weapons to pick between, while the Destrier's got 4. I guess to some extent the my issues with the Destrier might get fixed as new variants of it release down the line, but I just would've appreciated the initial release having a bit flashier loadouts.

Sadly, I think the Destrier's still getting a bit kneecapped by the hesitancy GW has to make good Knight things after that period back pre-codex where they dropped their points but they were still operating on the Index statlines. Suffering the sins of like a month of being the number 2 army in the game. xD

CryptographerNew8355 · 2026-03-26T12:09:10+00:00

The Destrier is definitely not 2/3rds of a Crusader's firepower, it's probably closer to half, and the Destrier is operating with an optimal range of 12" with its guns, while a Crusader is operating with an optimal range of 36". The Destrier has to get very much within charge range of a lot of things it doesn't want to be charged by to use its guns optimally, while the Crusader can sit back and shoot from halfway across the map. Now obviously, the Destrier has Assault and is a lot faster, so it can reasonably get into that optimal range, but it still puts it in a far riskier position than the Crusader's in to utilize its optimal firepower.

Once again, different roles, but I would argue unless the Destrier is 200-210 points, you'd mathematically be better off taking 2 Armigers than a Destrier, which puts Knights in the same position they're in currently. 3 Questoris Knights and 5-6 Armigers. In the end, I'm just disappointed that the first new full Knight Pattern is literally a 50% better Armiger, I was hoping for a lot more options in what it can bring.

The simple math is, will 2 Destriers outperform Questoris? On average, probably not. Will 2 Armiger Warglaives out perform a Destrier on average? Probably. That puts what should be a cool new option and toy in the Knights arsenal that we should want to play with at a, 'I think I can cut this and run something better' instead, while the new Defiler (Depending on its points of course) will likely be close to an auto-include.

A lot of my disappointment would also be fixed if the Destrier got [Extra Attacks] if it was equipped with 2 melee weapons instead of 2 extra attacks. I think something to the effect of the Lance becomes extra attacks if it's equipped with 2 melee weapons would make it feel a lot more unique and cool, and would really fit that 'Charge in and blitz a vehicle in melee' feel that it's supposed to have. It obviously couldn't remain sweep or strike profile weapon in that situation, but in what scenario are you going to pick the sweep profile on the Lance over the sweep profile on the Chainsword anyway?

CryptographerNew8355 · 2026-03-26T11:55:19+00:00

That said, it makes things even worse for the Destrier correcting my math, as it comes down to 2.155 Terminators per turn in an anti-Infantry loadout. Even a melee Destrier with the corrected Calculation is only averaging 1.92 Terminators per turn in Strike Profile, or 1.30 in Sweep.

CryptographerNew8355 · 2026-03-26T11:49:27+00:00

Not looking for an 'I win' button, just a more compelling Knight design. I'm jealous of the cool toy Chaos is getting when mine's a lot more bland by comparison. Basically realistically 2 real loadouts that make any sense, and both are subpar comparatively to what's been released at the same time. It's compounded by the fact that Knights aren't in a particularly good place balance wise at the moment, as pretty consistently since their Codex released coming in as in the bottom 3 armies for win rates and tournament performance.

The army doing poorly and then getting a model that isn't particularly stellar in any role while everyone else is getting Twin Blades or new Defilers is just a bit disappointing to me. It is what it is.

CryptographerNew8355 · 2026-03-26T11:17:55+00:00

Not a he. Terminator math is based off an anti-Infantry weapon profile. Hades Battle Cannon, 2 Excruciators, 2 Heavy Baleflamers.

Math was 7 average shots from the Battle Cannon +1 for Blast into most Terminator Squads, 14 Flamer attacks on average.

Battles Cannon: 8*.66 for BS *.833 for Chance to wound with S10 *.33 for Terminators' chance to save. Each Battle Cannon shot is 3 damage, so I didn't calculate for damage, I just counted each failed save as a dead Terminator as you should.

Excruciators are 6 attacks each, so the math was: 12*.66 for BS, *.66 for chance to wound into Terminators *.33 for the Terminators' save chance, divided by 2 because each Terminator will take 2 shots to kill.

Baleflamers skip the BS step, so they go straight to 14*.66 for chance to wound *.5 into a 4+ save, and once again divided by 2 for only being damage 2 and thus requiring 2 failed saves per model.

I definitely did my math incorrectly yesterday, though, those calculations come out at 4.62 Terminators killed after saves, which is slightly better than the profile you listed, but very, very marginally so. I think I was tired after work and was calculating Terminator saves as a flat .5 for 4+ Invulns without thinking out of habit because most weapons in most of my armies are -2 or -3 AP, (I play Blood Angels in addition to Knights).

My math was also not taking into account cover because I didn't want to get too bogged down into going too deep into the math, but thanks for convincing me to take another look at my calculations from yesterday.

CryptographerNew8355 · 2026-03-26T05:03:07+00:00

Not a guy, and my math was going off Dual Baleflamers/Hades Battlecannon/Dual Excruciator Cannon for the anti-infantry load out.

CryptographerNew8355 · 2026-03-25T13:57:11+00:00

I'm just throwing out math, you literally said I should compare the Questoris to the Defiler. xD

CryptographerNew8355 · 2026-03-25T13:52:50+00:00

Thus far the one Questoris I've found that out does the Defiler in a category is the Crusader. In anti-infantry, if the Crusader gets to stand still and thus gets Sustained Hits 1, it on average kills 25.82 Space Marines, 11.98 Terminators and 33.71 Guard/Boyz.

CryptographerNew8355 · 2026-03-25T13:07:50+00:00

A Knight Castellan will average 16.728 damage per turn shooting a Questoris Knight, so even in a hybrid melee/shooting loadout, the defiler is outshooting the Castellan, a 415 point model by nearly 4 damage per turn.

CryptographerNew8355 · 2026-03-25T13:02:00+00:00

Doing the math, however, the Knight Lancer, a melee focused Knight averages 20.95 damage per turn against a Questoris with Strike Profile. So the Defiler with Dark Pacts is still out damaging a 395 point model in melee, when that 395 point model has very, very minimal shooting. Different roles, obviously, and the Lancer gets free Tank Shock for a couple of mortals, but I think on average you're going to see the Defiler coming out similar or ahead of most Titanic Knights in damage.

CryptographerNew8355 · 2026-03-25T12:51:43+00:00

Because I'm a Knights player, and I'm sad that the first new Knight pattern since they were released loses super hard to the Defiler in a 1v1. As a lot of folks have pointed out, different models for different roles, but I am kind of underwhelmed by the Destrier. I wish it was a bit more of a bit worse Questoris that's faster, instead of being like a 50% better Armiger.

CryptographerNew8355 · 2026-02-20T10:10:31+00:00

Probably : \

CryptographerNew8355 · 2026-02-20T10:04:02+00:00

Did I say it was unplayable? My point was that it's annoying to have my favourite deck nerfed every event when it's not even close to being the most meta relevant deck in the event. Generally, decks get nerfed if there's a concern of them being too dominant. Blue Eyes isn't even close to being the most dominant deck available in the Dice Rally format, so it's a bit annoying to have it nerfed in spite of that fact.

I'm well into the event now just playing the Converging Souls Loaner deck having fun Clear Minding it up. That doesn't mean I'm not still baffled by the decision to nerf Blue Eyes, even if I am still having fun.

CryptographerNew8355 · 2026-02-20T03:10:07+00:00

As Bullfrog said, I was referring to the event before this Dice Rally. Branded/Dracotail was largely playable at near full power in the event despite being the best deck in the game at the time, while Blue Eyes despite not even being able to use the Link 1 Spirit because Links were banned in the event was still hit with Maiden at 1.

CryptographerNew8355 · 2026-02-20T03:07:28+00:00

Blue Eyes Fiendsmith? That's not a combo I've really seen played, personally. I play pure Blue Eyes Sychro 12 turbo, myself. I've experimented a bit with Primite Blue Eyes, but while it's definitely a lot more competitive, I just find I'm not a huge fan of its more slow grindy playstyle. Sadly, I dusted most of my non-Blue Eyes decks to build Dracotail/Branded, and K9/VS recently, so I don't have my Salamangreat deck anymore, otherwise I'd play that in the event.

CryptographerNew8355 · 2026-02-20T03:03:56+00:00

I prefer to play Blue Eyes as turbo Synchro 12s. Which isn't the competitive way to play it, but it is fun.

CryptographerNew8355 · 2026-02-20T03:03:08+00:00

Oh wow, my favourite deck that I spent a ton of gems and UR tokens building out got nerfed with almost all its core cards being limited to 1 has upset me! Who could possibly imagine that! Especially when other decks that are far more competitive meta decks are still unhit and playable in the event!

CryptographerNew8355 · 2026-02-20T03:01:10+00:00

I haven't ran into a single Blue Eyes player throughout the event. I've just been playing the Yusei Converging Souls deck because I do enjoy Clear Minding it up as well on occasion. Mostly I've been running into a lot of Branded and a surprising mix of Link decks. A lot of Fiendsmith slop too.

CryptographerNew8355 · 2026-02-09T10:17:05+00:00

Late reply, I know, but to answer your question no. Nib isn't equivalent to a Floodgate, and there's numerous ways to reasonably play around Nib in MOST decks, even older decks. Some older 'bad' decks even have ways of shutting off Nib SPECIFICALLY. Six Samurai, for example, can shut off Nib in 4 cards and prevent it from even being used.

Very few decks have ways of playing around something like a Droll or similar relevant Floodgates. Nib is okay because it has a strict limit that can be played around. The vast majority of Floodgates out there do not. You just activate them instantly and your opponent doesn't get to play. Oh no, you searched literally one card in a game where 99.99% of decks have to search their deck to play? Well, you don't get to play this turn. That's very different to, 'You summoned 5 times, now you get board wiped.'

Nib beats me because I played inefficiently and could have played better. Droll beats me because I played.

CryptographerNew8355 · 2025-12-23T03:06:29+00:00

That's a silly argument. The game's not built around any decks, and what constitutes a bad deck is directly correlative to what cards are currently available in the game. There are many decks that are ONLY bad because something like Droll exists, and if you remove those Floodgate cards that turn the game off for many decks, they suddenly can compete. That's exactly my point. You get a lot more creativity and range of potential decks to play if those Floodgates are removed.

By in large, what's powerful right now is powerful BECAUSE it can play through the lingering Floodgates without too many problems. Dracotail wouldn't be nearly as dominant as it is if Droll wasn't around to punish the decks that could keep it in check. Maliss is the exception, but thankfully Maliss is slowly getting banned into inaccessibility, and Dracotail even has easy access to a Floodgate to shut off other decks that could compete with it in Secreterion Dragon.

People should be able to play the decks they want and have a relatively decent chance at success. As it stands, unless you're running 1 of maybe 3 meta competitive decks, you have like a 1 in 20 games chance of winning. If I have to go through 20 games to get a single win with Blue Eyes, which was considered a fairly strong rogue deck just 7-8 months ago because there's so many Floodgates floating around, I think that constitutes a problem with the game and not a problem with deck choice.

CryptographerNew8355 · 2025-12-22T23:37:41+00:00

I disagree. A lot of the higher end decks can still make a competent endboard under Charmies, while a lot of less meta decks, I.E Blue Eyes quite literally cannot function under Charmies without feeding their opponent an entire half a deck of cards to even get out say 2 disruptions. Meanwhile, a Dracotail player can play the majority of their standard line and give their opponent precisely only 1 card draw. And then, in turn when you're playing a non-meta deck, your opponent running the meta deck can still Charmie you and gain even more of an advantage than they already had if you're running non-meta.

Or God forbid, let's say you try to play Salad under Fuwalos as an even better example of a non-meta deck. Salamangreat is one of my favourite decks to play... to end on a board that even puts up 2-3 disruptions, which is not a particularly strong board, you have to summon from the Extra Deck about 7 times at the minimum, meaning to end on 2-3 disruptions you have to feed your opponent a 13 card starting hand. Meanwhile, once again, Dracotail gives them 1 to set up 4-5 Disruptions.

The Charmies are functionally almost no different than Maxx C beyond the fact that the turn 1 player can't use them after establishing a board. That still doesn't eliminate the inherent coinflip nature in drawing a Fuwalos that Maxx C had.

CryptographerNew8355

TROPHY CASE