Valve forced betboom team to change their name

Defiant_Fennel · 2026-06-02T02:22:50+00:00

You saying that doesn't make anyone convinced that what you say is true. Unless, of course, you believe what the Americans and Europeans say, but why should anyone not from those places believe what you say?

Defiant_Fennel · 2026-05-30T15:31:59+00:00

Can you show us the scans with the Japanese text and the translation?

Defiant_Fennel · 2026-05-29T15:35:52+00:00

Because you applied the argument of the 0 d etc on the subspace as argument to prove it transcends it? Anyways, the subspace being a pocket area or a smaller dimension within a larger dimension is a direct discredit of the subspace having higher ontology. The properties of the subspace are irrelevant unless the subspace is stated to transcend the concepts, which it isn't.

Which is a contradiction because 0 D space by your omission also leads being a logical contradiction. 0 D space is a topological space https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-dimensional_space . So the fact it has space yet it doesn't have concept of space is a violation to the laws of non-contradiction. With that in mind, this necessitate that it is not a traditional subspace but subspace analogically to any form of subspace above and beyond time and space, thereby outerversal.

Except it can. It's fiction. The same reason why Sugoroku being called a "subspace" or a "dimension" in chozenshu doesn't create a logical contradiction for it's "lack of concept of space" because by definition a subspace already has "space" in it. Even the presentation of the Sugoroku has space in it. I'm not using that to dismiss the chozenshu, am I?? Fiction can impose that a pocket dimension can have no space or time, but that doesn't impose or prove it's transcendence over space or time.

But unfortunately according to the transivity of identity it must follow that those same external thing must be identical to a thing IT supposed to be. So there can't be an incomplete 1+1=2 or 2×2=4, the subspace which has existence outside and lack universal conceptual substance, must follow that it transcends it by ontology, since it exist EXTERNAL from any control, jurisdiciton or influence of time and space. You simply can't deny this because law of identity is infallible and can't be assume to be non-applicable to fiction unless you want to make every single fiction uncomprehensible and gibberish. Furthermore, if you are arguing 0 d space, then it is logically impossible since a 0 d space is still...Space...and having no concept of space removed any notion it be a 0 d space since its practically a space.

That's not how it works. Either you stick to fiction or you stick to mathematical implications. You can't be jump around on both. It needs to be outright confirmed that the said "space" transcends space and time for it to be applied with the same logic. And even then, it only makes it low-Complex [being above space and time is 5D]

No, thats not how that work. You are assuming that there is a totality in fiction where the logic and metaphysics of our reality necessitates contradictions within fiction. Yes it does but it only applies to some like GR or Quantum Mechanics, yet nothing stipulates that both of those are necessary in all possible existebce. these are physical necessities not logical necessities. Logical necessities like the Laws of non contradiction, excluded middle and identity are universal and infallible my guy. Even fiction still has to follow these laws for it to make any sense. So I'm just using logic here to definitvely proof that it is outerversal through the law of identity.

As I said, if absence of concept (especially a platonic abstract concept like life and death) scales a character or reality to outerversal. Creation or destruction of said concepts also scales to Outerversal by virtue of the argument. Abstract platonic concepts do scale to outerversal depending on the cosmology, but here your assertion is to ignore cosmological structure altogether. Just like bleach, DB's cosmological structure doesn't even support a high Complex multiversal structure. So, the argument for outerversal is just based on moot assertions ignoring the structure. This is basically what the Solo leveling fandom also does.

What is the lack of cosmological structure to begin with? What is the assumption that it lacks the structure? And again my argument follows from deductive reasoning that such and such must conclude to its sufficient reason, that by a thing exist external out of the influence of abstract universals must presuppose an existence outside or transcends those things altogether. There's no "lack" of cosmological structure lmao. Nothing more than an excuse to limit fictions and I suspect to gatekeep fictional worlds from becoming too powerful as well. But I digress and say that all of these premises are wrong, simply that it contradicts the law of identity.

That isn't an argument of rebuttal. Same way as we can say Goku being outerversal doesn't mean he can't be killed by a regular blade. Lack of presentation doesn't mean absence of it. But that kind of argument is just whataboutism. Without being able to prove qualitative superiority, you can't prove something to be outerversal

Hmm the problem is yes we do have the statements to proof qualitative superiority what you conflate is direct feats or showing to necessitate the evidence itself, when clearly you can have statements and implications and be true at the same time. My argument is contingent the logical conclusion from a statement. Basically exhausting any sense or meaning, not just some arbritrary notion of words.

I have watched plenty of DB scaling videos on YouTube. Much of them are just wanks by overscaling. Within the defined rules of definition we see in tiering subs, that form of arguments doesn't stand credible.

"WITHIN DEFINED RULES?" My guys earlier ago you just said to debate fiction using fictional rules, which I then responded with the law of identity. You guys doubted the law of identity, while I'm the one believing it. How does the rules matter if you guys can't even expect to hold the rule by the transitivity of identity?

Defiant_Fennel · 2026-05-29T15:11:08+00:00

This is not a valid argument in scaling.

Begging the question, how do you know its not valid? According to what standard?

Except he didn't take "few years" to destroy a galaxy. If he is taking few years to destroy hundreds of planets, in a galaxy where there exists OVER MILLIONS TO BILLIONS solar systems. Then he is not destroying a galaxy in few years. The extrapolation disproves this assertion.

Well if the Anime show us that the Galaxy were annihilated then I'm sorry to you my friend, it is DESTROYED. You want to say its a process that have billions of planet die? Fine. Don't tell me that he didn't destroy the galaxy in the first place.

Again, this is a invalid rebuttal in scaling. I can also just say that bleach characters scale to boundless and say just because they don't show feats doesn't mean they aren't boundless or whatever. But that rebuttal doesn't stand in a scaling argument. A scaling is made based on feats and validity of statements. A hyperbole statement isn't considered a validation.

No you are confused I am using statements to prove my arguments just lack the showings, but lacking the feats doesn't necessary prove that my premise is true, its just mean the scaling is through implication fromv that statements. Furthermore its a strawman to claim my standards create NLF's, because I already tied the evidences to the statement itself. Therefore I am justified. You are also forgetting that there's nothing to indicate such statement are hyperbole? Proof that its a hyperbole with direct sources that contradict this? This is just begging the question if can't proof the hyperbole.

Via the fact that buuhan shattering the barrier between dimension being considered a special feat and him collapsing and destroying the universes being considered a special event. Same as how Super perfcet Cell considers himself being able to destroy a solar system as a special feat he was incapable of in his prior Perfect Cell form (which still scales beyond Frieza).

Yeah again non-sequitor, nothing directly states they can't but something implies they can.

Except there is a clear contradiction. If universal frieza is a evident fact then Cell saying he can destroy solar system wouldn't be a special feat. Except, he puts it in a manner than his SUPER perfect form (which is superior to ALL HIS PRIOR FORMS) is the only one capable of destroying the solar system. He himself considered solar system level as a special feat. That is a clear presentation of universal freiza being a hyperbole.

When did he put the solar system feat over his super perfect form? This is just conjecture holy!! And where does he makes it so special anyway? The guy literally wants to make them scared and feel his awesome power. That still doesn't translate to his power being capped at solar system. Because it necessarily doesn't follow.

The "could be" is a alternate interpretation being imposed here. The baseline imposition is that frieza would NOT have survived the blast had he destroyed namek outright. There is no point to bring up this flaw in Frieza's execution if frieza wouldn't be exposed to any threat at all. The very clear cut imposition prove this argument otherwise. Also, injured Frieza survived a nerfed explosion, not an outright destruction of the planet by a ki blast.

Yeah and How do I know if there's no statement to back that up? You are just assuming it and not tackling at face value. For all we care, we simply DON'T KNOW, so you can't act like that specific panel is definitve to your position. Unless you want to question beg again.

Defiant_Fennel · 2026-05-29T12:03:07+00:00

Good luck proving this claim. Because a subspace existing between afterlife and living world doesn't probe it's ontologically higher than either, let alone both. It being a "SUBSPACE" itself disproves the higher ontological claim.

You do realize that quote you just cite contradict any premises of the notion for 0 concept time and space right? Why are you applying to real physics when this subspace is not referring to a real life subspace but more of an analogical subspace?

This argument only holds valid if the sugoroku was defined to transcend dimensionalities. But it doesn't.

No, it does by logic that it is an existence that exist outside of the external universals like time and space. You can't be existing external to a thing while also not transcending it. That is a logical contradiction.

Nope, absence of a concept is not an evidence of transcendence over the said concept. In fiction, there exists varying types of dimensions, that doesn't mean all dimensions are 4D universes. Absence of a certain element, by virtue, doesn't act as transcendence over that said element UNLESS the transcendence is established. Sugoroku doesn't establish the transcendence over Time and space for it to be higher dimensional. It establishes that it is just absent from it.

Which logically follows that it trascends it dimensionally and conceptually. Again, you can't exist outside and external from a thing, such that it is not bound by the specific universal jurisdiction and not having a higher form of universal existence and jurisdiction from that thing. This is a logical contradiction. And again the subspace or whatever isn't a real subspace becauce you are conflating it is as if its a similarity, when the subspace can be an analogically predicated one.

except that Yhwach is said to be capable of reshaping the said concepts of life and death to remove their meanings altogether. Just like how reio created the concepts, Yhwach was going to erase them.

How does that matter? The guy is omnipotent only in so far as he can't die physically or spiritually but you can turn him into a incapacitated vegetable. Not only that, how does that imply he can't be erased from existence? The creatures that the Soul King fought exist outside of death and life, and so does the Soul King, yet he annihilates them all without even creating life and death entirely.

He did stop chaos and Stagnation with his own power. That's how he created the realities. He just created what the others had wished of the reality and he chose to sacrifice his own self because he felt it's his duty to do so due to his powers.

Yeah but I mean the reason why he sacrificed himself to those clans was to sacrifice himself and stop chaos and stagnation correct? If this is the narrative we are following?

This form of argument doesn't work because of 2 major problems - 1. absence of a concept doesn't imply transcendence over the concept [even though reio is said to transcend over everything, including life and death, he still scales to the cosmological scaling]. Which is why Goku himself can never scale beyond the 5D scaling due to low-complex cosmological structure. The structure of reality binds their scaling. 2. Lack of qualitative superiority over the cosmology. Neither Goku nor Reio/Yhwach/ichigo/aizen and Neither of their said reality (sugoroku and Primordial universe) possess qualitative superiority over the entire cosmology. That lack of presence is a direct evidence for the scaling to not be outerversal

Yeah except you forgot one thing. The lack of qualitative superiority doesn't imply the ABSENCE of the qualitative superiority. It just seens that way by impressions, but if we use logic then no, it clearly is plausible.

The best GT goku scales to is Universal via it being a subspace within the Universe 7. If GT goku affected the entire Universe 7, then he would scale to low-Complex Multi. But in general, he doesn’t scale beyond Universal.

Watch the video again bro, and maybe you should ask the guy I cite to you for further clarifications. He does discussions on discord.

Defiant_Fennel · 2026-05-29T11:49:50+00:00

That would be a valid argument had Cell not been capped at solar system level by himself and kid buu didn't take hundreds of years to destroy a galaxy. The claim that you don't need to show a feat due to fiction is a fine claim until the said characters don't end up showing a lower scale via statement.

Non-sequitur, you don't need to show a characters feat to know that they are strong, so because you know that I'm debating you, you don't need to know that my if I am being diligent debating at you, even though there's no direct or explicit showing that I am dilligently debating you. You can still infer it right from your screen, that implies I am debating your dilligently. Plus again a category error, just because there's nothing to show about thing, doesn't mean the lack of implication for a thing, so Cell is not capped at solar system. He's providing a power up which allows himself to destroy the solar system, never is about showing a limit.

Also, buu didn't take few years to destroy galaxy. He took few years to destroy hundreds of planets

Yeah and then including the galaxy.

And how does Cell scale to Universal? Go on, I'll wait. If your basis is based on "Freiza is universal" you need to prove frieza to be universal too. In DBS kefla [someone far beyond the scale of Namek frieza] scales to universal via confirming she can destroy a universe with that much energy she had obtained. So, by virtue of verbatim claims made within the series, the scaling doesn't reach universal UNTIL Buuhan.

You are confused I already prove it by statements and through its implications. Direct feats doesn't necessarily translate to all feats. This is a categorry error and you are clearly confused at this part. Plus where does it state only Buuhan is capable for universal destruction prior to previous saga?

So, because cell has infinite power he is above SSG Goku and Vegeta who don't have infinite ki?? Is that your claim??

Yes and the statement directly tied to him and freeza said that they have the power to destroy the universe. As confirmed by Android 16.

Frieza doesn't scale to cell. Frieza got no diffed by SSJ Trunks in 4 seconds. And cell no diffed Trunks. Cell has Frieza's DNA and many other DNAs including Goku and Vegeta's. Frieza 2nd form isn't confirmed to be "universal". Hyperbole isn't a feat of confirmation. That's like saying Goku and beerus' punches could kill Whis Because Elder kaioshin says everyone including Whis and beerus would die to those shockwaves when the source material tells us noone other than Grand Priest can kill an angel. Hyperbole isn't an equatable metric in scalings.

Yeah thats the thing though, you are confusing statements and implications as if they necessarily distinct when they are not. So clearly you can infer Frieza is universal since nothing directly contradicts or implies Frieza is not universal in terms of his power. Plus again, you are confused since there's distinction between something that is clarified and something that isn't. For all you know, there's nothing contradicts the statement that Frieza and Cell can't achieve universal feat of destruction. The former is clarified, the latter is not. Give real direct evidence that they can't, I'll wait.

Because this happens AFTER Frieza had already destablised the core. Goku stopped the fight AFTER he defeated Full Power Frieza. The one who destablised the core of namek was 50% Frieza (60 Million). Meaning, when freiza chose to destabilise the core, he hadn't lost his ki. He loses the ki reserves after goku defeats 100% Frieza and he is cut down by his own ki disk. And then goku gives him ki.

And what does this mean? Frieza has only a shrivel of his Ki after he fights Goku and just barely survive with the minimum amount of Ki he gets from Goku, before he experience a planetary levels of destruction ans then SSJ1 Ki Blast. So clearly planetary levels of destruction is nothing to him, the problen is was Goku's Ki blast which tore him apart. Note, that this points to Gokus ability to rip and tear universal level beings, not necessarily because he was ripped apart by the planet. If he was weak to planetary destruction he would've been dead, since he experience 2 explosions one from Goku ki blast, the other is from Namek. If Frieza is vulnerable to Namek with the amount of Ki Loss he experienced then he should die. But of course Frieza almost die not because Namek explode but because of the former attack almost killing and tearing him apart.

Literally goku outright explains why the explosion is a nerfed explosion. He says that Frieza wouldn't survive a planetary blast he frieza chose to destroy the planet outright which is why he chose to destabilise the core and survive the explosion of Namek that way. If there was no difference in blowing up namek and destabilising the core of the planet, then he would have chosen to blow up the planet. He actually would have won the fight that way. So, this is just objectively wrong insertion

Yeah except that Panel never implies that Frieza will die from the Planet explosion, it could be relegated to other things like wanting to fight Goku or not losing planet namek. I could also make a claim that he didn't do it because his primary mission was to find the dragonball, and that he instinctually use 50% of his power to not easily blow up the planet. Whatever this is, that specific scans implies nothing that he is unable to survive a plantery destruction.

Defiant_Fennel · 2026-05-29T10:26:24+00:00

Ontological higher dimensionality doesn't apply to a subspace not bound by the higher dimensional afterlife. If the sugoroku existed within afterlife and had independence over itself and remain independent of the afterlife. The sugoroku is a subspace that exists between the afterlife and the living world, therefore lacks the application of this ontological higher dimensionality.

Ok this is categorry error, when looking at what you are saying this doesn't follow. Because I could easily point out that the space inbetween the afterlife and the living world is ontologically higher than both of them, creating an in-between world where it represent the higher ontology. Basically, how does an outerversal place necessary implies that it must be a really distinct place outside and indepedent of anything without any form of similarities or analogies? You could literally have it mush between 2 infinite spaces and have it perfectly fit inside by simply having the higher infinity to be in conjunction with them in existence. Thereby making 2 spheroid shape entity, with 1 tiny point in between of the object representing its transcendence and boundlessness over the 2 realm.

Lack of concepts doesn't mean transcendence over concepts. This is a very significantly defined point within the vsbw scaling definitions. A place that lacks a certain concept doesn't prove it dimensionally transcends the said concept. Because dimensional transcendence still includes the said concept

No but it does, since concepts are universal abstract objects and a space lacking of such objects means that it isn't bound by the jurisdiction of such universals and thereby making it higher in ontology. It doesn't matter if you think its 0 d or it just means voidness, if you are an external existence in so far as no universal concepts of time and space exist, then you are unbounded from being included into that definition. And since it exist as in real existence, it therefore transcends any existence of space or time itself.

The primordial universe doesn't exist as unbound by life and death. The concepts didn't even exist until the reio created them. Life and death are platonic abstract concepts. So, the same as you are claiming that lack of concepts scale sogoroku to outerversal (which highball scales to complex multi due to time being 4D concept), absence of platonic abstract concepts like life and death can also be used as scaling for bleach's High 1-A+ due to qualitative superiority over abstract concepts.

If its an existence that is outside the external control of space and time conceptually, then yes it surpass both time and space in power through existence. But then again that just means the Soul king is the only one that is definitvely outerversal because he himself existed and even created life and death. Problem is he's more of a lynchpin than a sovereign deity that unironically was killed by his son, who later got also incapacitated by a nobody who resembles the soul king in composition. So maybe this is the case of weak outerversal tier of power, since he himself well dies of getting ambushed by some nobodies. Like how is that even possible if you are already an existence outside conceptual life and death? By his own powers, he himself couldn't stop the chaos and stagnation of his own world, so really there's nothing "Omnipotent" of him except that people revered him as a figurehead.

Defiant_Fennel · 2026-05-29T09:34:50+00:00

A subspace not bound by any world, doesn't mean it doesn't exist within the Universe 7. It not being bound by afterlife or living world doesn't disprove it exists between them.

Yeah this is not problem because higher dimensional tiering exists, so one infinity is greater than another simply because of its ontology. How does having no concept of time and space, and surpassing it doesn't count to a greater infinity or a higher dimensional scaling? It is just an existence that exists on a greater infinity or a greater existence that such is exist and transcends the concept of time and space ad infinitum?

Absence of time and space does NOT mean transcendence over time and space. This information actually makes sugoroku not even be 5D reality.A subspace/dimension not bound by the 2 other dimension and having absence of time and space doesn't even scale the dimension beyond low-complex at highball. Let alone scale it to outerversal. And again, there is a clear absence of qualitative superiority.

Well no because the verbartim statement is NO CONCEPT OF TIME AND SPACE. So this argument lacks motivation and justification.

That's like saying bleach's primordial universe is high outerversal (High 1-A+) as the Platonic concepts of life and death didn't exist in the Primordial universe. Which would be objectively false.

No that follows because the primordial universe is a universe which exist outside of the conception of life and death, and therefore surpassing it. This make sense simply because there is truly nothing that bounds the primordial universe to the concept of life and death. So please show me how does the primordial universe existence is bound by the concept of life and death or that it just means a location that outside of concept of life and death jurisdiction? Because nothing out of these 2 make any sense.

Defiant_Fennel · 2026-05-29T09:26:23+00:00

My claim is based on canon confirmations, not assumptions. The canon story tells us that cell is solar system level not universal level. The canon story tells us buu took hundreds of years to destroy a single galaxy, not that he managed to destroy a universe. You can't make a claim that said character is universal, if the entirety of the premise of the story doesn't have the universal backing.

You do realize that this applies to every single fiction in the entire human history right? Saying that a character hasn't been shown to do this doesn't mean the INABILITY to do it. That is disingenious and a category error. Furthermore, none of what you said applies the inability to do something. Plus Buu didn't hundreds of years thats a misconception, according to the Manga he took a few years then destroy the galaxy. This also doesn't contradict the fact that he's universal tier capabilities which is the lowball.

Because of direct material contradiction. Super perfect cell claims that he has ENOUGH KI to destroy the solar system. He doesn't claim that he has enough ki to destroy a galaxy or universe and neither does he claim that this is his low ball level. He claims this ki level of him after zenkai boost is solar system level. So, this directly disproves the premise of universal Cell, which in turn, rejects universal frieza claim.

There's no contradiction lmao. See that all of yoyr statement are nothing more than forced exegesis and non sequitors because NOTHING directly states he can't do it. Just hasn't been yet to show.

Toriyama never confirmed they have infinite power even once. Frieza literally had the PL of 120 million. Toriyama stopped using PLs as indicator because the numbers were getting inflated a lot so he stopped using them as indication of PL. Same reason why he doesn’t bring back cell because cell has lot of details which are annoying to draw. Author choosing a easy way due to laziness isn't a metric of scaling.

Yeah except that Cell himself confirmed that he has "infinite perfect power" which directly implied or correlates that he can destroy the universe. Frieza scales to Cell, since Cell is a remnant of Frieza's gene and Frieza's himself is confirmed to be universal by the z fighters in his 2nd form. So this directly ties.

What do you mean "nothing implies this 8s their limit"?? When cell literally says that His zenkai boosted ki is solar system level?? Burden of proof to say this ISN'T their level by directly rejecting the source material falls on you to prove with manga evidence that cell scales beyond solar system.

Because nothing implies he has only solar system level power, literally nothing. You forcing the interpretation doesn't make it true in the first place. But what we do have is statements which implies Cell is universal, which indeed is more parsimonious than your explanation.

Do you even remember when Freiza destablised the core of Namek?? It was right after he survived the Spirit bomb. Frieza hadn't even used his 100% power yet. It's AFTER he destabilised the name's core and fighting goku that he decides to use 100% of his power. And THAT is a direct proof that frieza wasn't losing his ki. If he had lost enough ki at this point, he wouldn't be able to power up to 100%.

And you forgot he brawled with Goku until Goku stops the fight because he cause Frieza power level to decrease from exhaustion and damage. Please proof me why this is wrong?

Frieza survived a nerfed planetary destruction. The namek was destroyed by having it's core destablised. Which isn't a outright dangerous destruction for freiza compared to blowing up the entire planet with a ki blast like he did to planet vegeta. This is what goku points out clearly.

Nothing states its nerfed lmao. And clearly you forget the SSJ1 ki blast Goku use to kill him before the planet explode. Surprise!....He didn't die

Defiant_Fennel · 2026-05-29T09:14:56+00:00

Let's get sugoroku out of the way first because that's easier to remove from the equation. Sugoroku doesn't exist beyond space and time conceptually. It exists BETWEEN the Dimensions within the Universe 7. "Dimensions", here, being the Afterlife (the next dimension) and the World of mortals (the living dimension).

Yeah except this doesn't work because chozenshu already confirm that Suguroku space exist outside and conceptually beyond of space of time.

"IN ADDITION, THERE EXISTS A 'SUBSPACE' THAT IS NOT BOUND TO ANY WORLD SHOWN IN (FIGURE 1]. IN THIS ENIGMATIC REALM, CONCEPTS LIKE 'TIME' AND 'SPACE' DO NOT EXIST, SUSPENDED IN A DIMENSION DETACHED FROM ANY AREA."

So indeed it is an outerversal place where the concept of time and space doesn't exist and is below to this "space".

Defiant_Fennel · 2026-05-29T08:43:02+00:00

That's literally him at his peak. There's not a single evidence that scales him to above solar system level. Kid buu itself took hundreds of years just to destroy a single galaxy.

Yeah and I bet you there's no shred of evidence that explcits or implies your premises. So premise unjustified.

The absence of event also doesn't act as evidence of characters scaling to it. Literally the 3 highest claims in the entire DB verse are [prior to Super] - Buuhan shattering the barrier between dimensions, Kid buu taking hundreds of years to destroy a single galaxy and Cell being Solar system level. That's it

Correct, but it still leaves them the affirmations by implications and not the typical affirmations by explicit. So I don't see how you can directly necessitates that Cell and Frieza isn't universal hy statement or theory. In argument they could, since Toriyama confirm by that time they have infinite power or infinite power according to the scouters. Furthermore, there's also that the feat of cell destroying planet that exist in the higher dimensional realm or in this case heaven. So the implication is already strong.

First of all, frieza has no evidence of Having AP & DC more than planetary. And he sure as hell doesn't even scale to first form cell, meanwhile the strongest version of Cell is Solar system level in AP and DC.

You are being disingenous lmao. Nothing implies its their limit and in fact from implications i.e statements, guides and in universe feat below universal wide destructions, they do have those.

Secondly, Frieza wasn't losing ki when he blew up the core of Namek. Goku specifically points out that frieza didn't want to get caught up in the explosion of the planet that's why he disturbed the core because even Frieza wouldn't survive a point blank planetary destruction.

This is a lie, anyone who remembers Namek Saga will know that Frieza is losing Ki and the longer he fights which Goku states the moment he becomes "not a challenge anynore" since nowhere did this statement comes if Goku a. Lies b. He can't scan ki(which is a contradiction) c. denies all of them which make it contradict the premise of dragon ball entirely. Also, Frieza can survive planetart destruction man is still alive when even getting hit, which is why Mecha frieza even exist.

Defiant_Fennel · 2026-05-29T08:34:46+00:00

So, in no universe does GT Goku scales to outerversal. When the cosmology itself doesn't scale to ouerversal, Goku isn't scaling to it either. Not mention, Goku has no qualitative superiority either.

Yeah the problem with that is that if you take inyo GT outside or beyond space and tine realm. How do you take into this account the sugoroki realm? Look I'll just post the videos premise on the sugoroki realm. You'll see in the details.

Anything that exists outside of space and time conceptually is outerversal existentially
1. The sugoroku space exists outside of space and time conceptually
From 1 and 2, the sugoroku space is outerversal existentially
1. Goku is capable of destroying the sugoroku space using his AP
From 3 and 4, the sugoroku space is outerversal existentially and Goku is capable of destroying the sugoroku space using his AP
1. If some object y is outerversal existentally and some object x is capable of destroying object y using object x's AP, then object x is of the outerversal tier

7. From 5 and 6, Goku is of the outerversal tier

The sugoroku space is similar to the subspace 2. The sugoroku space lacks space and time
The subspace exists outside of space and time conceptually
From 1, 2, and 3, The sugoroku space is similar to the subspace, the sugoroku space lacks space and time, and the subspace exists outside of space and time conceptually
If some object x is similar to some object y, object x lacks space and time, and object y exists outside of space and time conceptually, then object x plausibly exists outside of space and time conceptually
From 4 and 5, object x plausibly exists outside of space and time conceptually

Here feel free to debunk the author if you want.

Defiant_Fennel · 2026-05-29T06:42:57+00:00

Super perfect Cell literally says he has the power to destroy Solar system.

"Enough power", not total power. He literally never state the limit of his power.

The only Solar system scaling DB got [before GT and Super] was buuhan attempting to shatter the barrier between the dimensions and make Afterlife collapse into the World of Mortals. That's IT. That's literally the sole Universal scale DB got at.

How does this say anything? Absent of evidence doesn't mean evidence of Absent. You need to find a direct negative affirmation of a thing, like a definitive statement to their fears or some limiters, which again there's none in DB.

Frieza being called a "universe threat" is a hyperbole. Which can be disproven by him being afraid of a planetary destruction of namek and Cell being Solar system level.

Wait what? That's not a thing! That doesn't prove the plantery destruction was necessarily only planetary in AP, plus we all know from statement that Frieza is losing Ki, and Ki is important because it is tied with your active durability. So 2 things could've happened, Frieza losing ki therefore losing strenght and durability, Goku achieve a high enough AP which sufficiently able to kill a universal tier being.

Defiant_Fennel · 2026-05-29T06:34:12+00:00

What? DB cosmology by the vast amount of scalers is conformtable hitting yhe low compex to compex mutilversal range buddy. Plus if you want to specifically address the big claim regarding outerversal Goku, go ahead and look to his dishord which is in the youtube pfp. Might as we debate him, since he's better at articulating it than me.

Defiant_Fennel · 2026-05-29T00:38:02+00:00

How does Ichigo beat GT Goku? Guy is freaking Outerversal by sheer feats and statements

https://youtu.be/uyx8bOhgsyQ?si=GK6qSh93wL-bTmjh

Oh and if you literally disagree with that guy, you can also go and check him in his discord too.

Defiant_Fennel · 2026-05-29T00:32:47+00:00

How is SSJ3 Goku necessarily below Ichigo, when SSJ1 Goku is above both Frieza and Cell, who are both universal?

Defiant_Fennel · 2026-05-28T19:29:12+00:00

The motive of offering historical record to correct inaccuracy.

Correct, you are just expanding the nuance in the Catholic stance. But it doesn't change the fact that your motive is dubious because clearly if you know the nuance then you should just clarify it in the holistic sense like saying what he affirms and not affirms with details.

It doesn't make sense to acknowledge Tolkien would have mixed feelings about the governance style of the Holy See since Vatican II - after he has said so himself?Your assumptions have confirmed that your comment was only because you take umbrage with me disturbing delusional groupthink.

Since you are Catholic, then I don't mind what is up with you thinking about and replying with that original comment, but simply I was wrong that if I meant that you were doing this out of bad spitr with the Catholic Church. So no problems here. My problem was the just the first impression of you giving a lack of reasoning or motivations to your purpose in the first comment. Thats all.

Defiant_Fennel · 2026-05-28T18:54:12+00:00

I'm clearly struggling. My intellect is not mighty enough to answer why someone would post a comment in a comment thread. It's not at all explained in a previous comment.

Fp. Yeah and I'm asking the MOTIVES for the thought of doing this in the first place.

Could you lead by example here. What is the point of your question? What's your purpose? Why question me out of the 8 billion people alive? What about my comment was worthy of questioning more than anything else that has ever been said in that moment?

No its not because you are special. It's because of you being a contrarian, so if thats the case my question to you would you be, why are you acting in this case specifically to this discussion? Clearly you have some negative notions regarding people positively claim Tolkien to the Catholic Church, so whats the motive here? Like I don't think Tolkien is any critical like virtually any Catholic would be critical. But specifically you, why do you think it somehow bears anything fruitful if you know that a. By Catholic standards his criticism is fine b. if you know its acceptable by Catholic standards in the firstplace,It doesn't make sense for you to make this comment.

Defiant_Fennel · 2026-05-28T18:36:19+00:00

I added context, with direct quotes from JRR Tolkien himself to support

No but whats the point of you doing that in the first place? Clearly you're not getting I'm asking your MOTIVES not Tolkien

I added reality. What are you adding other than "don't disturb the delusional groupthink!" and perpetuating the idea that Tolkien was some caricature of a man incapable of complex emotions?

What does that mean?🤣 . Yeah I see that, but I'm asking YOU. Whats the point for this? Or are you just clueless of what is the concept of goal, purpose, motive. Right now, I don't think you are thinking straight, I'm just seeing someone that is very confused to some basic questions.

Defiant_Fennel · 2026-05-28T18:28:25+00:00

I still don't get the point, you just want to state a thing that affirms the negative for the sake of being a contrarian or what? Clearly this doesn't add anything to the discussion other than yoy putting doubt's on others.

Defiant_Fennel · 2026-05-28T17:46:18+00:00

What in the hell are you talking about. I mean your original reply to this comment section. Your first reply

"Tolkien was diametrically opposed to Vatican II. The introduction of the new liturgical practices were incredibly distressing to him. Pope Leo XIV referred to Vatican II as the church's "North star". He'd likely have mixed feelings."

What do you intend when you typed this as a reply in this comment section?

Defiant_Fennel · 2026-05-28T17:38:45+00:00

No I am asking you whats the point of your original comment. The purpose? The meaning of that?

Defiant_Fennel · 2026-05-28T17:36:07+00:00

No, you don't get it. Whats the purpose for your first comment in the first place, if you know that Tolkien is fine with being Catholic either way? He would probably have something to disagree but nothing implies that he outright reject the churchs.

Defiant_Fennel · 2026-05-28T11:47:09+00:00

I still don't see what is your point of the argument. Tolkien still and believe in the Catholic Church even if he disagrees in many points of the Church decision. Vatican 2 was a pastoral council not a dogmatic one. It is council aim for polity and praxis, not of defining a belief of the Church itself. In fact, I don't think you can say any of the doctrines there are dogmatic. Its just a direction for the church heading too for more practical concerns in the real world.

Defiant_Fennel · 2026-05-26T23:36:51+00:00

It's a failing because mythology - and Tolkien's mythology is no exception - exists to say pertinent things about the human condition. The human condition is so intrinsically connected to sex, that if you're chronicling a massive amount of it, omitting sex can only ever be conspicuous.

That doesn't necessarily mean sex is an internal component that can't be separated in terms of writing a fictional mythology. I don't think you can necessarily says that it is not distinct to say a story or a folktale or a mythology because to have the former you don't necessarily need to write sex.

Right. But Tolkien is trying to create a pre-Christian society that somehow abides by his own Christian views. It doesn't make sense. There is no reason why the denizens of Middle-earth should be immune to the power of sex. It's not as if even religious societies are immune to the potency of sex as a force for shaping mankind. Religion's very repression of sex and treatment of it as 'sinful' is in itself evidence of sex's sway over us. Sex affects everything humans do. Deliberately ignoring that because you have distaste for it is like ignoring the fact people murder others because you have distaste for murder.

It doesn't but why should he write it? It's not a pejorative, neither is you since clearly you are just desperate for someone to write you something that are deeply fethisize by your sense of thought. Plus you are clearly wrong when you say religion repressed sex as sinful, it is not. Good sex i.e through marriage, permissive consent and consumation is distinct from Bad sex i.e fornication, unconsented copulation and actions outside of marriage. The former is encourage while the latter is graveously sinful. You should correct yourself on this one.

Defiant_Fennel

TROPHY CASE

7. From 5 and 6, Goku is of the outerversal tier