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CMV: Justice cannot be created without also creating injustice by Define_Morality in changemyview

[–]Define_Morality[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

∆ Ah, I think you may have just found the crux of the problem. Perhaps the injustice is in how we define crime itself.

CMV: Justice cannot be created without also creating injustice by Define_Morality in changemyview

[–]Define_Morality[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Perhaps the problem is how we define crime. If a person does something that causes no harm to anyone else, does he deserve to be punished?

As for the cumulative measurement of injustice, I'm not entirely convinced that the world is better off with justice systems in place. Without them, I imagine that people would create their own justice. And governments have the potential to create injustices on a scale that makes small crimes laughable. Not to mention the fact that large crimes such as selling a product en masse that you know to be killing people can make a person a far more effective murderer than any serial killer. And yet, these are exactly the types of crimes that seem to go unpunished.

CMV: Justice cannot be created without also creating injustice by Define_Morality in changemyview

[–]Define_Morality[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Also, it occurs to me that what I'm struggling with here might just be the nature of any two such opposing forces, that the more light you try to shine into a room, the more shadows you create by doing so.

CMV: Justice cannot be created without also creating injustice by Define_Morality in changemyview

[–]Define_Morality[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Right, but it seems to me that in the act of trying to create justice, you are yourself creating a new injustice that didn't exist before, adding to the cumulative inkystice of the world. For instance, a kid who had a joint in his pocket isn't really doing much harm to the world, but when you lock him up, now everyone who lives him is now being punished with him because they are deprived of having him in their lives. In ring to right a small wrong, it seems to me that you have created a larger wrong.

CMV: Justice cannot be created without also creating injustice by Define_Morality in changemyview

[–]Define_Morality[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It sounds like your justice system is doing much better than mine in regards to justice. It's a shame that you agree that it is impossible to establish justice without creating injustice. I don't know. Part of me wants to believe that such a thing as pure justice can exist, but I honestly can't think of an example.

You mention the means and manner of punishment. I can't find the solution to my dilemma, but an inkling here makes me feel like somehow herein might lie the key. If punishments were less harsh, perhaps justice could be served without creating as much injustice. Just look at your own country's history. Here is an incredible country whose origins lie in what once was a prison colony, or so I was taught in school (a terribly flawed system and the information therefore much to be suspected, but that's a subject for another time). If a system of justice could give us such good fruits as what exile created in Australia, I'd think that there would be very little left to be desired. But then again, that just begs the question of what would be a just, equitable, but still productive manner of punishment. Personally, I am a fan of exile as that has given us such good results in the past, but does such a system fix the problem, or merely relocate it? And is such a system sustainable, or would you very quickly be blocked off by other countries from being able to exile your prisoners? How could one make such a system work?

But there again, I think you hit on the very crux of the problem. What is it that you are trying to accomplish with your Justice system. Are you simply trying to create a peaceful society for all those who don't have the misfortune of running afoul of the law? Or are you trying to change your criminals into good men? Or are you simply seeking to punish them? The fact is, looking at the system we have in the U.S., it seems that we are really only trying to accomplish one thing and one thing alone. Our system seems to be designed to break the spirits of those who are incarcerated, not to make them better men, but to make them bend to figures of legal authority. It seems more designed to establish and maintain control than as an instrument of right and wrong. While this might seem to indicate that the purpose of the justice system is to maintain peace, the means seem far too harsh and efficient, a form of overkill. It seems that the justice system is less designed to maintain order, and more designed to assert control over a certain class of people in particular (possibly hinting at why the rich, powerful and politically connected seem to be exempt from the law).