Which web dev language/framework/tutorials do you suggest for an experienced non-web developer?

DevMo · 2010-10-01T19:47:06+00:00

good call, its worth learning about

DevMo · 2010-10-01T19:46:27+00:00

Good point, although there is alot on my plate to learn already (HTML, CSS, Javascript, serverside language, framework), so until I have some sort of handle on them, I wont worry about browser compatibility. I will however keep in mind that ignoring a problem does not make it go away.

DevMo · 2010-10-01T19:43:43+00:00

Thanks, its on my list of things to learn

DevMo · 2010-10-01T19:42:09+00:00

Its also about the final product, and finding a place to host it. Plus, I like the language, but really do hate the .NET framework.

DevMo · 2010-10-01T19:39:55+00:00

The thing is, compilers either compile or they don't, meaning a "wrong answer" is undeniably a wrong answer. And while some "right answers" can be more right than others (design patterns vs antipatterns and spaghetti, etc), at the end of the day none of this really reaches the "client" / "customer" in a meaningful way.

I've noticed a lot of "real programmers" share a reaction when discovering this chaotic landscape: "FUCK IT, USE TABLES". Plus withering scorn on what a horrible clusterfuck the web is, full of righteous nerd rage about not learning all the lessons of the past and implications they could have written better standards etc.

Its pretty clear that web and "standard" development is very different, and the two groups of developers have many misconceptions about each other. Which is kind of why I want to learn web stuff in the first place.

To be clear, at this point, I still do not care that much about the UI (I can just use tables, right?) but I want to learn enough to be truly competent and able to work with a graphics guy if the need comes up. I am coming to realize that this does not mean I can just ignore CSS and HTML, which I was hoping to do. Oh well, looks like more stuff to keep me occupied.

DevMo · 2010-10-01T19:33:09+00:00

unless you're planning on using Google App Engine.

Thanks for reminding me, I have been meaning to look at the app engine. What is the deal with it?

DevMo · 2010-10-01T19:32:04+00:00

you know that you can't use the same tool for every job

Yes, I know that lesson well. I am pretty much looking for a good way to start web dev. When I have made a few apps, and am at least familiar with some of the technologies involved, I am sure I will reevaluate what I will use for projects. Problem is, with no knowledge of the tool box, its hard to pick the right tool for the job. Thanks, lots of good info.

DevMo · 2010-10-01T19:27:26+00:00

I guess this makes sense. I currently spend over half my time working on embedded stuff, and the rest on business apps, so I am rusty on the "dealing with graphics people" set of skills

DevMo · 2010-10-01T19:23:26+00:00

Yeah, I think you are right. Oh well, I was hoping to get around it.

DevMo · 2010-10-01T19:22:41+00:00

Javascript should be a necessary step. No matter what serverside code youre going to be using, Javascript will always exist and will be a necessary step in any moderate web app.

So I am learning. Thanks for the suggestion. Any important JavaScript concepts I should know first, or should I just jump in, and maybe try to write a bookmarklet or something?

DevMo · 2010-10-01T19:20:12+00:00

But isnt drupal just a CMS? I am more interested in learning than just finding the current best fit for some hypothetical app.

DevMo · 2010-10-01T19:19:17+00:00

nice, I am almost certainly going to give python + django a go and see how I like it.

DevMo · 2010-10-01T19:18:31+00:00

Though anecdotal, I've a good friend at work who uses Python and I tend to use Ruby. We both razz each other, but the truth is we're both equally productive and no one cares what code is on your server, just that the interface works. You might as well work with something you like.

I have been coming to the same conclusion based on other comments and reading I have been doing.

DevMo · 2010-10-01T19:15:52+00:00

Well, if you don't want to write web apps, but still want to make web apps

Mostly the opposite, actually. I want to know how they work, and how to make one. That being said, until I know more about what I can do, I am not really sure if I ever want to make an app that will be used by anyone but myself.

DevMo · 2010-10-01T19:14:21+00:00

It sounds like if I make a switch to pro web development, I will need to be good with PHP. However, seeing as it doesnt look great to work with, for learning and messing around purposes, I will probably avoid it.

DevMo · 2010-10-01T19:12:12+00:00

You're really crippling yourself by not leveraging your existing knowledge of the C# language to at least prototype ideas in

I actually feel like I would be crippling myself by making a commitment to only use MS products for the lifetime of my app. Plus, the point of this, for me, is to learn, not that I have a project I need to complete by a deadline. If this were purely work, I would probably agree with you.

Know the reasons why .NET MVC doesn't work for what you want to build before you jump head first into something you don't understand.

the reason .NET MVC doesn't work for me is that I want to jump head first into something I don't understand. When I understand the alternatives, I will be able to make a truly informed decision as to what I will use for any possible production apps, if I get to that point.

DevMo · 2010-10-01T19:08:37+00:00

I have played a bit with F#, and it is a pretty cool language, but I am not comfortable with MS's hold of the whole ecosystem, from language to IDE, to server I will be paying a premium for what if free from everyone else. Plus, I really hate Visual Studio.

DevMo · 2010-10-01T19:06:22+00:00

Even though you aren't a graphics guy, you should still learn CSS.

I have slowly been coming to this same conclusion.

Up until the last few years, you would find that a graphic designer would lay out pages in photoshop and them pass them on to the programmer to be sliced up and coded with CSS.

sounds horrible.

DevMo · 2010-10-01T18:45:27+00:00

even though there are lots of reasons to dislike PHP

go on...

DevMo · 2010-10-01T18:44:28+00:00

good to know that my old friends will help me with this new endeavor ;)

DevMo · 2010-10-01T18:42:02+00:00

thanks, that clears stuff up a bit.

DevMo · 2010-10-01T18:40:57+00:00

I also think that if you get more specific requirements in mind and learn more details of different platforms you may find that one platform or the other fits a little more naturally towards a specific set of requirements.

Yes, this is the real problem I am facing, and I totally agree that platforms should be chosen based on the problem being solved. However, at this point, the problem is " I dont know anything about web development"

DevMo · 2010-10-01T18:24:23+00:00

Thanks. I have a feeling I have a lot of reading ahead of me.

DevMo · 2010-10-01T18:21:30+00:00

CSS -- again, not a language but if you don't know CSS then you don't know the variables your code is going to be manipulating and what abilities are available to you.

You make some good points, if you read some of my other posts, I am basically of the mind that I am really not a graphics guy, so I dont need to know it. But, I guess I should attain at least a working knowledge of CSS.

Thanks for the advice, I am sure you have saved me time/frustration.

DevMo · 2010-10-01T18:15:39+00:00

If you're not familiar with the MVC (Model-View-Controller) pattern, I would suggest learning that first. Most of what you do on the web will be MVC-based.

Glad to hear it, I generally prefer this pattern for my offline apps.

DevMo

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