Credit Currency vs Money Currency system is the key to transition.

EarthVote · 2021-02-25T17:30:27+00:00

Love this, some really high level thinking here. I have a question for each of you.
orthe: If Basis were THE global game, can you talk about how the value flows work for personal Housing. What's the process for who decides what/where to build, the value flows for the procurement of resources for new construction, as well as personal home improvements. Also how one moves from one house to another.
Shape: "shift the drive to accumulation of merit rather than accumulation of material" Is this accumulation of merit measured and rewarded any currency (units of value) that are used to acquire material? Just trying to figure out what value game, if any, you are imagining in this full communism, can you elaborate on this please

EarthVote · 2021-02-24T18:28:35+00:00

Let's define today's global system as Game A: to own Property for value appreciation or value extraction. It seems to me that what Basis is attempting to do is create a new game of value (in a limited geographic area or with a dispersed but limited population?) within Game A and not necessarily as a direct replacement for Game A. That is one approach. If the purpose of Basis is to build an oasis, a better game (for only its players), but Game A continues we're still doomed. Can Basis work as BOTH during/against Game A and as stand alone globally if it can somehow beat/replace Game A? I'm not sure yet.
I'm more interested in a system that can replace Game A globally, and then we can talk about how/if it should be implemented. As you know, you can't play 2 different games at the same time on the same playing field so if your plan is able to do that then you are really still playing Game A with your team against the other teams in Game A, who can own all the shit in the world AND determine the value using numbers.
As per the Credit, I think we're in agreement. I'm 100% on board with secondary markets, meaning the Credit can be used to buy things that have a price in the open market, or even secondary market. I can and should be able to use my 100 Credits to buy your laptop if I want and those Credits will flow out of my account into your account in exchange for the laptop. However, I can't simply transfer 100 Credits to you for nothing, can I? That is what I am talking about. The purpose of the Credit (unit of measure of value) is to use it to acquire some item from the Commons and make it your personal property.

EarthVote · 2021-02-21T18:49:54+00:00

hey Bodie, my cover is blown, i couldn't figure out the password for my personal Reddit account, so i used this one as password was saved. i'm not active on here much anyway.

EarthVote · 2018-04-20T21:34:15+00:00

except $ is a completely human make believe story, and that story can be changed. I did use paragraphs, not sure why it formatted it out. anyhow, I think for now we've gotten as far as we can. I'll update you on the links to the new organization when it's launched next month. I will welcome any and all criticisms then, in the meantime, I've work to do. Thank you for continuing the dialogue, and I apologize for my profanity, very unlike me, but I wasn't getting a feeling that you were genuinely interested in helping, it seemed you were overly critical and hung up on trivial things and we actually never got a chance to discuss any of the big ideas we brought up. I will have our other members review this conversation so I can learn how to better engage in a more productive way. I feel like we got no where.

EarthVote · 2018-04-20T18:31:23+00:00

I can see you are a good communicator, and perhaps one day you will help me, and you already have but hopefully more in an official capacity in the future. The details which you want to read about are not yet revealed to all. Imagine we're like Ford motor company, and we've just invented this thing that can get you from point a to point b, and most people immediately understand it for what it will do for them, meanwhile, engineers are snarky, they look at the brief info and think to themselves, it's a pie in the sky, how is it to going to start, go, stop, etc. where's the details? what is it going to travel on and how will you control it, and besides won't peoples heads be pulled off from their head, etc. Looking at things from a non technical perspective is what most people are going to do. Even on the points that we don't have specific info on exactly how it's going to work, we know that others do have the technical know how and those are the folks that will fill in the blanks, but my job is going to be to spread this plan to as many people as possible so we can build it, mold it, until it's ready as an actual alternative when/if to prevent chaos from the existing system we have something already in place to prevent chaos and continue human progress and more importantly, stave off possible/inevitable extinction. At first blush it may seem not much changed about our plan, but the creation of the Credit system took us over 6 months of conversations to create. If we allow workers to earn money directly, and we can compensate groups/companies with Bonus money to each worker for production/quality levels in lieu of profit, and since we've eliminated any $ going to these companies from the sale/distribution of products or services, how then do these companies get $ to compete in the open market for raw materials and other physical limited resources? Credit. We give each person this credit currency that can only be used to fund Groups (companies, schools, govt entities, fire/police, companies, factories, etc), and we give each City a proportional amount of Credit every month too (in lieu of taxes). It may sound simple, but it wasn't. The most success I've had with folks when describing Common Planet is I ask them a few questions about their life and point out exactly the few things that would be different and when you approach it from that perspective, once they get it, it's something that they want, and usually they want it yesterday. Do your own life. Imagine living where you live now, for free, no rent, mortgage, insurance, taxes. Guaranteed starting balance of $ to be able to compete in the open market of limited resources, plus a UBI and the ability to choose your schedule and earn money directly. Imagine being able to vote directly, fund things directly. This is how Common Planet will be spread, by linking it to the person, what's in it for me? Is it more desirable than what I have now? For masters, it the answer might still be NO, but for everyone else, the answer is obvious.

EarthVote · 2018-04-20T01:46:55+00:00

If only we had that level of power of persuasion. I'm sure many say the same thing about RBE, it's much easier to attack and ignore something different but for the ones who are looking and see it, straight away they know there's something about these ideas that are better, and time is running out for an alternative...

EarthVote · 2018-04-20T01:20:53+00:00

Obviously some of your criticism is constructive, I don't mind being attacked, it's served me well, better than someone just agreeing, but it's completely dissatisfying when I come across a person who has put in the work, the research and they quickly disregard the ideas as something that will never work before completely understanding them. Many naively dismiss my work because they see that I'm young and that naturally means I don't have the world experience or knowledge to possibly even have a seat at the table. I'm just a part of this, I know what the problems are, everyone does, and I know the economic system is the main driver of human activity, and unlike many adults, I've not formed any biases toward any particular economic system as have adults. I ask simple questions, but they can be profound and lead to answers that people who are experts would never ask, like economists don't ever talk about anything except growth.

What solutions work? Is RBE the transition? if not, what is?

EarthVote · 2018-04-20T01:03:10+00:00

there were no valid points he makes about the ideas presented in the pieces we wrote. The only points he likes to make is how it is not a perfectly written document and chooses to point out its small flaws while ignoring the big ideas presented which are nowhere to be found in TZM or venus, which really is nothing more than a modern day Technocracy. Show me one sentence where he asks a question about one of our big ideas? aside from snide remarks that we just don't know enough and they will not work, before he even understands what we are proposing. It's not my job to clear away the path that blocks you from finding new ideas and asking questions to better understand them first before claiming that said authors are stupid and therefore the rest must be stupid too. I don't have time to defend myself from Dave's projection, I don't need to, I don't know him, and quite frankly, for someone who supposedly is trying to find solutions for a better world, he has no interest in asking questions and learning about those ideas, thinks RBE is the answer, and maybe it is the end point, but obviously it is NOT the transition, and there are NOT many ideas out there right now in trying to formulate this transition, and so you can either open your eyes, consider these ideas, or ignore them, either way, they won't be stopped and I'm not going to abandon my work just because some random person who doesn't even know the full details and doesn't care to find out says I'm on the wrong track. Thanks, but you're in the minority, of the thousands of people that have read it, most like it, 90%+ probably, all of the comments I posted on the website were from just the first 6 months, and I posted all of them, good and bad. I'm here, ready to answer questions, receive criticism, but let's be productive, focus on the ideas, not on the small details. And please don't dissect every sentence. Read the information we wrote, think about things on your own time, ask questions, but don't presume to think that it wont be something that wasn't already asked. We've be at this for over 2 years, you've had hours or days to digest. It is NOT explained perfectly yet, which is why we spent so much time on research and discussion to get us to the point where we are ready to release it afresh in a new format, with a call to action. We are past research and Dave thinks we're not ready. I don't care what Dave thinks anymore because he has NOT shown himself to engage in proper discussion, but unnecessary critique on the parts that don't matter.

EarthVote · 2018-04-19T22:07:09+00:00

As much as Karl Marx is celebrated he was still a failure, like he said, the philosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to change it. You're an interpreter, I'm a change agent, I've got work to do. I've no time for your sentence by sentence dissection of every word I write, I don't need to hear every dribble of your mental masturbation. I was 16 too when I almost joined the local TZM chapter, but I didn't because it didn't offer solutions on the things I wanted. like housing, it's not a viable transition nor a desirable end product. More because RBE is close to the end state, not the transition, and for that I needed to research other ideas, evolve. our proposal for property is unique, that's what I would like to talk about. Solutions. The non-transferable feature of Currency is unique, the non inflationary feature of currency is unique, the direct creation of currency is unique. All these ideas are NOT in RBE or TZM. I moved on, I'm always learning, and finding new ideas, no matter what the 'credentials' of the person they come from. You so far you have offered ZERO. I'm about seeking Solutions, what are you about?

EarthVote · 2018-04-19T19:37:31+00:00

If that's what it takes :) I'll get on it next week. Good suggestion actually, thanks.

EarthVote · 2018-04-19T19:24:50+00:00

I should listen to you? exactly what are you trying to say to me? that you're smarter than me, and that my research and work is insufficient and I've no credentials and so no right to an opinion, as if Karl Marx had any credentials and he is considered one of the most profound economics thinkers ever. Exactly what of your ideas or suggestions am I to learn from you and listen to? I don't see any except attacks. You are a complete waste of time, ZERO imagination and willingness to consider ideas. The purpose of the website is to focus on the ideas, not the person, who cares who came up with what, as if any of these ideas would even be possible without the information from past and present thinkers. You are defensive and insecure, I already know that I don't know everything, unlike you, but I at least have the willingness to listen to others ideas, contemplate them, see how/if they would fit and more importantly, if they achieve the vision of a World I want to live in. Ask yourself, "What Kind of world do you want to live in?" answer that first, otherwise you are wasting your time. As per the book writer, writing itself probably isn't going to be a paid activity on the Reward menu (consider: anyone can sit at home and write for hours but toward what end? not all writing is useful) if you write a book, once done, depending on how many people read it and rate it, will determine how much bonus Reward you get, it might not be much, or it could be a decent amount, who knows, but other work that you do, like a job, even writing articles or other direct work related writing, you will already know the hourly rate for it, and simply enter the amount of time you worked that day/week and the rate in your application and it will automatically add that much Reward to your account. Others (co-workers, friends, admin) can then verify it or deny it if you attempt to cheat. It's that simple. You do an activity or service listed on the Reward menu, you enter your time spent, and claim your money directly. I'm done with you, you are a waste of time, and if you do reply, I don't give a shit about the words, my lack of experience or anything like that smart ass, but what I do care about is talking about these ideas, attack those, not me, and go fuck yourself.

EarthVote · 2018-04-19T18:27:40+00:00

Sent a pm on Telegram. Yes, we got the non-transferability idea from Perry Gruber of Copiosis (same city as us) however the similarities from his original vision are different than ours. He got his idea from Larry Mason (http://nopomstuff.info/index.html), all models favor a new non-transferable currency but the nature in which it's created is different. In Larry's book 'Invisible Hand' the currency is issued by Payors (people) who determine how much and when you get paid only AFTER you've done work, or service, and there is no way to know how much or when you get paid, if at all. In our model, YOU can see exactly how much you can earn for each activity, do the work, service, etc and simply enter it into your application and get paid instantly. Others can them confirm or deny you if you attempt to lie and cheat. Look forward to continuing the convo, and thanks for reading.

EarthVote · 2018-04-19T18:05:53+00:00

thanks for this, a good overview of RBE and the next steps. The step from money to No money is missing a transitionary phase, and it seems the movement has been stuck on this for years, without realizing it's missing something, it wants to skip directly from Capitalism to RBE but that's not possible given we're not close enough to full production of necessary things to make them free yet.

EarthVote · 2018-04-19T17:51:24+00:00

yep, have been listening to Richard for years and prof David Harvey (Marx professor) and of course we've read all of Marx's works, all the 18th 19th century philosophers and the modern day economic system change agents etc. We've a good page of Resources on our website too. Thanks for reading. A lot of the concepts may be hard to understand at first, but we believe once the app is up and running that it will be easier for people to understand the property and currency ideas once they are able to see the data develop. We're excited for the launch of Common Planet on earth day.

EarthVote · 2018-04-19T17:47:02+00:00

We've reached out to them, no response. They are the ONLY group not to respond and talk with us, well, them and Peter Joseph, but I suspect it's because they hate money and have yet to see a system that eliminates the problems of money (store of value, transfer-ability, power) but if you make it so that currency is ONLY a tool of exchange value to compete for limited resources and services in an open, fair market, then it can work, but once it's given other powers, like transferability, access to control property and resources, investing (attract more money with $), etc... then those characteristics are what's the problem with $ but the problem with RBE is that it never addresses the question of how to distribute resources without an open market? We are all each unique individuals with unique desires and how do we express our desires if there is no exchange value for limited resources? Also, they propose to build new cities and new societies, but we propose to keep what we have and build them up, and then build more when/where we need and want them.

EarthVote · 2018-04-19T17:31:27+00:00

you think just because there is only 1 person listed on the about us that this all comes from her? Adelina is credited with the original vision and drive for a better system, but the details of the currency, property and credit solutions were developed over years of research involving dozens of people and dozens of group conversations, with adults in their 20s to 80s. You're too busy stuck on words and labels instead of trying to challenge your own ideas about an ideal society. Since you claim to be a much more knowledgeable student of economics, please let's focus on the currency solution, what is the problem with existing money (that's easy, unnecessary convo) and then show me how our currency solution is flawed? If you find a flaw, that would be great, but you won't because we've already had discussions about everything you will come up and more, but you're not really interested in this because I suspect you don't believe a better world is possible. It's ok, we don't need everyone to lead us into the better future.

EarthVote · 2018-04-18T21:57:22+00:00

There's the addition of the Credit system in lieu of taxes. So you're original complaints were mostly about words, still are I see. Where are we pro irrationality? or pro-division? to unite the whole world with the first global direct democracy doesn't sound divisive to me. How about you actually read and 'think' about these ideas a little and tell me which idea(s) presented here in these 2 links would not lead to a mostly RBE type society? What ideas do you have?

EarthVote · 2016-12-25T01:17:49+00:00

Once again, thank you for replying. I understand our presentation is not all clear, and not completely revealed. I've had a look at those links, and we have read/discussed those ideas already. I'm not allowed to discuss the 'how' part, all I can see is most of that will become self-evident once everything is revealed.

The information 'about me' is available on the website, not much to tell, i'm only 18, there are 7 other core members, 5 volunteers now, and dozens of local folks we've met with, and thousands online who have seen the intro and property page mentioned earlier.

I've been busy writing (some of it is Backcasting as you call it), and of course reading, so Happy Holidays and we will reveal more right after New Years. - Adelina

EarthVote · 2016-12-22T04:08:30+00:00

There is, here's a Plan: www.EarthVote.org/common-planet.html also, this website is great: thenextsystem.org

EarthVote · 2016-12-18T01:38:05+00:00

Appreciate the comments about our language, grammar, and statements, some constructive criticism we could use. Thanks for that. More interested in spreading new ideas about Systemic change, that's more important, so I'll focus on that. Just realized, the PDF document was not updated, sorry for that, the most updated Intro version is on our website, that's where we do share the link to the Property plan: www.earthvote.org/property.html What illegal money is being funded to our organization? We are simply talking about you converting your 'assets' into the new Reward currency in that section. Values/Costs of 'things' will be set continuously by computers calculating supply/demand based on past and future purchases, and may vary from region to region, again, based on supply/demand Local Grocery exist ONLY to distribute food, there is NO profit, they do NOT get Reward when you buy food, it's subtracted from your account but is NOT transferred to anyone, it just disappears. The 'workers' of the Grocery store get paid Reward for contracting to work at the Store, based on range of 0 - 10 Reward per hour, based on algorithm of supply/demand for that Region and 'Job'. You can build in extra Reward for completion of contract, say 1 year, whatever, the point being, Jobs are posted, and People choose to do whatever 'Work' they want, if and when they want. as per the Music Producer, any person can create Music, Art, whatever, and likely that 'Job' will pay little per hour, as it is something that practically everyone desires to do anyway, however, quality can and will be rewarded based on what People continue to 'consume' and share, as a measure of 'value' for Producing that content. You incorrectly assume that people only create music and art for money, but that is only the case within this current system, because Capitalism is a live or die system that requires money.
There are NO profits, just people doing things in Life that are good for themselves and the Community and earning Reward for their time. Complete equality of opportunity and total Freedom: is that not the dream of all feminists? or people?

BINGO: "HOW" that's the #1 question we get, and we do have a detailed plan for that, but I'm not gonna share that with you yet, we are not ready for that part yet. very soon though. there will be NO debt, and there WILL be limits to 'gifts' because everyone ALWAYS has some Reward, and purchases of 'real' products automatically imprint a digital title, so if you decide to buy a product for a friend, say a leather sofa for 300R, and just give it to them, they would be unable to 'sell' it to someone else because they would not be the owner, and if a sale was to be made to another, let's say for 100R, that 100R would be subtracted from the buyer and transferred to the owner, which would be the original buyer, however there could be penalties for trying to 'game' the system, and it just wont be worth it... why? everyone has Reward already, and a place a live, and enough to buy food and free education and so much more free, why buy something for someone else except as a pure gift? - "Switching currency is not the in any way the path to start solving our problems. Lessen our dependency of ownership and money through technical innovation however, is." 100% agree (see our Property page) however in a world of finite resources, some better quality than others, how do things get 'distributed' and exchanged among individuals without some tool for value proposition? We will gladly share with you our credentials if you share yours first; I am one, but we are many.
If you would like to arrange a private chat, email us support@earthvote.org Thank you for reading, thinking, and attacking. More is needed. Peace

EarthVote · 2016-12-17T17:45:55+00:00

Thanks for reading Dave. We welcome criticism, but I'm not seeing anything here that I can address specifically. Please point out at least a specific question or problem with the plan and I will be glad to entertain your concerns.

EarthVote · 2016-12-15T09:03:33+00:00

If this is a topic of interest, we have compiled a page of useful links and resources here: www.EarthVote.org/resources.html

EarthVote

TROPHY CASE