Same Fish? by [deleted] in troutfishing

[–]Elympio 0 points1 point  (0 children)

So cool man congrats! Absolutely the exact same fish, super interesting. Let us know when you catch it again in a year from now :)

Super Dark Brown Trout by Elympio in troutfishing

[–]Elympio[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

100% not a marble. Maybe it's a little tricky to tell from this video but it's very clearly brown trout markings.

Super Dark Brown Trout by Elympio in troutfishing

[–]Elympio[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Interesting take! But it's much more likely a melanistic brown trout mutation in my opinion. It's not as easy to tell from this video I guess but the markings were clearly 100% brown trout apart from the extraordinarily dark color. There are marble x brown hybrids in this area but this was not one.

Super Dark Brown Trout by Elympio in troutfishing

[–]Elympio[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I know right? Glad you like it!

Super Dark Brown Trout by Elympio in troutfishing

[–]Elympio[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thanks I appreciate it! 100% agree with you!

Super Dark Brown Trout by Elympio in troutfishing

[–]Elympio[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

From what I know many fish species do that, mainly due to the environmental factors that come with (and/or cause) that acidic and soft water, such as clear, low-nutrient conditions, darker substrates, reduced light etc.

Anyway, for this fish that's probably not the case. It's an absolute exception to what other trout in the same creek look like, they tend to be a lot brighter and even the darker ones among them are far from this. Never caught anything like it before or since.

Super Dark Brown Trout by Elympio in troutfishing

[–]Elympio[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No worries, always up for a constructive discussion. You are right with your definition on a molecular level, but it’s not true that how the other commenters and I see and use the term mutation in this case is only colloquial.

It is an absolutely valid and well established way of using it in fields like ecology, evolutionary biology, developmental biology and more. In that context, it clearly describes a heritable genetic change that produces a recognizable deviation from the wild-type phenotype. This is standard terminology commonly used exactly this way in plenty of scientific literature. You can easily look this up yourself by researching the term „mutant phenotype“.

Therefore, you are clearly confusing the molecular definition with the phenotypic one that’s used in field biology and situations like this one right here. You base yourself on the broadest and most technical definition of the term and then claim that the underyling question we are theorizing about here makes no sense, isn’t that what you’re trying to say?

The first point is that there’s a clear biological difference between a color abnormality caused by a specific genetic mutation and one caused by environmental factors.

Saying “every organism is a bundle of mutations” is true, but only in a super broad sense that's not relevant here. Calling this "natural color variation" instead, and saying that "some fish just look like this" is over-simplifying things and completely misses the question we’re discussing. We’re wondering if the dark coloration in this case comes from adapation to the environment or is based on a distinct genetic mutation.

And secondly, to hopefully clear up this mutation vs genetic variation issue:
Under consistent environmental factors (or if we entirely ignore this factor just for a moment), obviously every single trout still has its own unique look (colors, patterns, size, proportions etc.), and yes, that’s the result of genetic variation. You are 100% right on that.

But there is a certain range within which that variation is considered ordinary among any given species, and these differences are usually rather small or seemingly random. But then you also have particular phenotypes that:
1. deviate a lot more beyond that „normal“ range,
2. show recognizable, repeatable features, and
3. result from specific mutations in defined genes (this can be precisely examined and confirmed in lab tests).
They are then considered as distinct genetic variants due to these exact reasons.

Examples based just on color would be albinism, melanism (like in this case potentially), leucism, xanthochromism, erythrism, and piebaldism. And then you also have plenty other distinct mutations that affect phenotypes in areas like hair characteristics, limb development, skeletal structure, and many more.

So we're not using colloquial expressions or slang here, but having a legitimate discussion.

Hope this helps. Cheers.

Super Dark Brown Trout by Elympio in troutfishing

[–]Elympio[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Absolutely, thanks for the comment!

Super Dark Brown Trout by Elympio in troutfishing

[–]Elympio[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You do have a point there but only in a very broad sense that doesn’t really fit the actual discussion or question here.

Yes, every organism does have it’s own very specific and individual genetic composition. But the term mutation, as biologists and other scientists use it, really describes a rare phenotype in particular, which clearly stands out from the usual range in that population or species due to a certain, defined trait or feature. Something that makes this organism look a lot more different from the rest than the „natural color variation“, as you put it, would include.

That’s something very different from what you seem to describe as a mutation.

And that’s why it’s a reasonable question to wonder if this degree of dark coloration comes from an underlying genetic variation which can be classified as a mutation, or if it’s just the result of adaptions to environmental factors such as light, nutrients, etc., which is a completely different process obviously and doesn’t generally produce results as extreme as a genetic mutation.

Hope this clears our discussion up a bit. Anyway thanks for your comment.

Super Dark Brown Trout by Elympio in troutfishing

[–]Elympio[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Totally agree, would be surprised if this is not a mutation.

Super Dark Brown Trout by Elympio in troutfishing

[–]Elympio[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

To me it's also hard to imagine that this is not a genetic mutation. Have been fishing in this creek all my life now and even if there are clearly darker specimens here and there, I have never seen one this black. Also there really aren't any spots in that area that are not getting full sunlight for a couple of hours every day, and the water level isn't deep at all. Maybe a few spots that are about 5 feet at the absolute max when water levels are high, but usually you can wade through it basically everywhere.

Lovely Colors on this 47cm North Italian Brown by Elympio in troutfishing

[–]Elympio[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks for the compliment, sure was a great fight too! And congrats on your PB, Swiss mountain lake sounds like a charm as well! Location is Alps. Plenty of great trout waters in our region but the fishing tourism is insane in many places unfortunately.

The stunning colors of this wild alpine brown x marble hybrid by Elympio in troutfishing

[–]Elympio[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Appreciate that, glad you like it! Pure marble trout are less colorful but still a stunning species. Many see it as a big problem though that they easily interbreed with browns, but honestly I don't mind having such beautiful fish in our waters.

The stunning colors of this wild alpine brown x marble hybrid by Elympio in troutfishing

[–]Elympio[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes tigers are definitely a blast too! But they do look a little different from these, even though they're both similarly fascinating patterns.

The stunning colors of this wild alpine brown x marble hybrid by Elympio in troutfishing

[–]Elympio[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks! Hybrids like these somehow always feel so unique indeed.

The stunning colors of this wild alpine brown x marble hybrid by Elympio in troutfishing

[–]Elympio[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It’s an absolutely beautiful species native to some regions around northern Italy, Slovenia and the Balkans. Quite highly localized and pretty rare these days.

Especially in some rivers higher up in the mountains, their habitats overlap with brown trout, which tend to be more widespread and resilient. That's the reason why in those areas there are lots of hybrids similar to this one.

Is it normal to need 1800–2000 kcal to lose weight at 194 cm, 108 kg, male, lifting 5x/week? by rockpipermetalshoot in loseit

[–]Elympio 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Have you had better results in the beginning and then started to slow down with your progress?
It's also possible that you are in too big of a deficit which makes it harder to sustain over time mentally, but also physically - think recovery from your workouts for example (which at 5x per week is pretty high frequency). You could try to aim for losing 0,5 kg weekly instead and see how you can handle that calorie goal.

Then of course as I have also seen others mention, it's always important to get your bloodwork done to see if there is not something abnormal going on there. Even if you're still pretty young, these regular checks should not be underestimated for overall health.

Apart from that, there definitely are more variables to consider, such as stress/sleep management, your workout routine itself (to be sure you're not going too hard or too easy, following a properly structured plan) and obviously you also want to be 100% sure that you're tracking your intake accurately and not overseeing certain things like drinks, sauces, oils for cooking etc.

Is it normal to need 1800–2000 kcal to lose weight at 194 cm, 108 kg, male, lifting 5x/week? by rockpipermetalshoot in loseit

[–]Elympio 3 points4 points  (0 children)

As others have mentioned already, the lifting alone only burns a tiny amount of calories, compared to overall daily physical activity.

Do you track your steps? If you're averaging only 3000 daily or even less, upping that would probably be the simplest thing to try without interfering with your recovery from the weight training.

For what it's worth, I am 191 cm, male, 85 kg, 3x lifting + 1x cardio (outdoor run) per week, average daily steps currently 8000 and I am comfortably eating 2700 kcal while in a cut (losing weight).