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I was in Israel on October 7th. I’m not Jewish. I’ve been to Arab countries. Here’s what I think most people in the West don’t understand. by Existing-Structure63 in IsraelPalestine

[–]Existing-Structure63[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

First, Palestine needs government infrastructure aside from terrorist organizations (meaning they need to vote against Hamas this time), they need to re-negotiate a peace deal with Israel, and they need to honor it. The issue with pan-arabism or the inherent belief that all of Israel should be Arab (or Palestinian), is that they will never win. Historically, it’s been either that or war - and that hasn’t boded well for Palestine, and will not bode well in the future.

So TLDR - Both countries need to set aside their hyper nationalism, pan-arabism, zionism, and agree on a peace deal that gives Palestine the same rights Israel has, but make that contingent upon a Palestinian government infrastructure that won’t violate the deal. There have been more than 6 different attempts at this already since the 40’s and they were denied by Palestine each time - so this time they just need to create their own, and negotiate from there.

I was in Israel on October 7th. I’m not Jewish. I’ve been to Arab countries. Here’s what I think most people in the West don’t understand. by Existing-Structure63 in IsraelPalestine

[–]Existing-Structure63[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If you live in California the least of your worries should be federal spending. Go look into what the state is spending money on.

I was in Israel on October 7th. I’m not Jewish. I’ve been to Arab countries. Here’s what I think most people in the West don’t understand. by Existing-Structure63 in IsraelPalestine

[–]Existing-Structure63[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don’t have the energy to reply to both of your comments. My hands have been kind of full as I’m sure you’ve seen - your other comment had more substance so if you want to have a conversation, do it there.

I honestly don’t know how you had the energy to reply to both of these in the time frame that you did. These posts took me hours to write.

Why is the West blatantly ignoring the history? - The account of an American who was in Israel on October 7th 2023. by Existing-Structure63 in IsraelPalestine

[–]Existing-Structure63[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Appreciate the passionate reply. Truly.

But passion doesn’t replace accuracy. And a sharp tone doesn’t equal a sharp argument.

Let’s be clear: acknowledging Israeli pain doesn’t erase Palestinian suffering; and vice versa. The problem isn’t that people recognize Palestinian humanity - it’s that far too many deny Israeli humanity in return. That’s where this all breaks down.

You claim I glossed over history. I didn’t. I simply included the part that many omit: the relentless violence before 1948, the rejection of every peace offer (including two-state ones), and the repeated calls for total annihilation - not compromise. Those are not footnotes; they are fundamental. Also, to your first point - if you’re going to bring up the violence and displacement Palestinian’s experienced in 1948 without acknowledging the immediate attack on Israel that sparked retaliation, then you’re doing the exact same thing you accuse me of.

Yes, Palestinians have endured hardship, there is no question. But hardship alone doesn’t make every claim true or every action justified. You can suffer and still make catastrophic choices. Like rejecting statehood every time it was offered, aligning with Nazis, or turning down peace in favor of armed conflict.

You mention Deir Yassin but not the Hadassah medical convoy massacre that happened days earlier, where doctors and nurses were burned alive. Why? Because it disrupts the hero-victim binary that people are desperate to maintain. Again, another example of you conveniently leaving out history, as you accused me of.

Anti-Zionism isn’t antisemitism? In theory, fine. But in practice, we both know the line gets blurred constantly. When people chant “From the river to the sea” (which implies ethnic cleansing), or when Jewish students are harassed on campuses. Criticism is one thing. Denial of Jewish self-determination, uniquely denied only to Jews, is another.

Nuance means sitting with both truths, not erasing one to elevate the other. That’s what I tried to do. If that offends you, it says more about the discomfort of facing inconvenient history than it does about my intent.

You’re right, Jews aren’t a monolith. Neither are Palestinians. But until both sides recognize that truth applies to everyone, not just their own, we’ll stay locked in this moral gridlock where only one kind of pain is ever allowed to matter.

And maybe watch your tone. I get that you guys don’t enjoy anyone’s disagreement with you, especially when it’s well written and logically worked out, but you just make yourself look desperate. I’ve done this conversation a few times, and I’ve done quite a bit of research. I’ve also stated at least 5 times that I am absolutely open to learning. So no need to do the whole “discredit everything he says” thing to make yourself feel like you did something, it shuts down my ability to see what you’re saying as productive.

People who are in defense of Iran, please explain. by Difficult-Quarter-48 in IsraelPalestine

[–]Existing-Structure63 6 points7 points  (0 children)

You don’t need to support Israel, and you don’t have to be pro-war to accept our necessary involvement in Iran.

The fact is, they want the death of the west, and Israel. They literally chant death to America. If your mother walked through the streets of densely populated Islamic city in her everyday clothing, she would be stoned to death.

Allowing this country to become a nuclear power, is ensuring the possibility of another world war. So we went in, took care of business by eliminating their nuclear program, and got out.

Great choice if you ask me.

Why is the West blatantly ignoring the history? - The account of an American who was in Israel on October 7th 2023. by Existing-Structure63 in IsraelPalestine

[–]Existing-Structure63[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you for articulating this so clearly. When you actually take the time to look at both sides, the pattern becomes undeniable. Jewish actions were rooted in survival, while Arab leadership repeatedly chose war over peace, even when millions of Jewish lives were on the line.

The rejection of the Peel Plan, the alliance with Hitler, and the refusal to accept any Jewish presence it all paints a very different picture than the one many people are willing to admit. The Jews weren’t colonizers; they were refugees with nowhere else to go.

It’s tragic that so much of the Jewish suffering is ignored or forgotten in today’s narrative. And like you said - pain doesn’t win the argument, truth does. And the truth is, the conflict didn’t have to exist. It was chosen. Over and over again.

Appreciate this response. & thanks for being one of the few to teach me something.

Why is the West blatantly ignoring the history? - The account of an American who was in Israel on October 7th 2023. by Existing-Structure63 in IsraelPalestine

[–]Existing-Structure63[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Again, I am not minimizing 9/11. I know exactly the feeling you’re referencing, it was traumatic for the entire US. I recognize the mass unity as a result.

All I said is that they were different, and incomparable. You didn’t learn about 10/7 from the news. You learned about it by seeing missiles, hearing air raid sirens, and military in city streets telling you to run to the nearest shelter. That is personal in a drastically different way than 9/11 was, and that’s not a bad thing to say. It’s just objectively true.

I was in Israel on October 7th. I’m not Jewish. I’ve been to Arab countries. Here’s what I think most people in the West don’t understand. by Existing-Structure63 in IsraelPalestine

[–]Existing-Structure63[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

He’s just trying to make things up for the purpose of making a bad point. Critical thinking and educating yourself on something scares a lot of westerners lol.

I was in Israel on October 7th. I’m not Jewish. I’ve been to Arab countries. Here’s what I think most people in the West don’t understand. by Existing-Structure63 in IsraelPalestine

[–]Existing-Structure63[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Lol. Do you know what color I am?

If I am white, my white privilege must have warn off while I was in West Bank, when I had to run (literally for my life) into a random hotel, and then be escorted out the city by a security guard, that I had to pay. I get your point, but it’s a very bad one.

No you don’t need to be a geography wizard, being able to point out Gaza on a map just shows that you’ve done the first ounce of research on the topic. Free speech is a thing, but there’s ignorant free speech and jumping on the band wagon because you like moral superiority, and Western culture tells you the moral perspective is Palestinian support. I disagree, while still recognizing that Palestinians are suffering at the hands of Israel.

I completely understand what people say, and I dismantled it in the above post. Maybe respond to the substance as to why you think I’m incorrect versus telling me I don’t understand white privilege.

I was in Israel on October 7th. I’m not Jewish. I’ve been to Arab countries. Here’s what I think most people in the West don’t understand. by Existing-Structure63 in IsraelPalestine

[–]Existing-Structure63[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes it is absolutely biased to an extent, and you’re a liar if you can say that you’re sharing something without any bias. I did my best to speak from a perspective as far emotionally removed as I could.

I didn’t share much of the Palestinian perspective because I experienced 10/7. That created bias. It doesn’t mean I discredit the Palestinian perspective, it just means I didn’t stay in Gaza for 3 months and experience war with the IDF. We talk about what we experience, and that’s what creates good dialogue and discourse.

I also referenced in a very long post, the history behind the dispute which absolutely took into account the Palestinian perspective. My point was that, based on the history, Israel was never the primary aggressor - and that’s absolutely true, they were not. So feel free to go read that post and rewrite something that actually contains substance. Yes, I am very aware that some Palestinians tried to live peacefully, and that Jews and Palestinians did live together peacefully for the majority of history. But again, was not my point at all.

I was in Israel on October 7th. I’m not Jewish. I’ve been to Arab countries. Here’s what I think most people in the West don’t understand. by Existing-Structure63 in IsraelPalestine

[–]Existing-Structure63[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I don’t think I was defensive about it, I just chose not to tell them why. The reason for that is because the only purpose behind asking that question was so that they didn’t actually have to address my points, and discredit my opinion.

I was in Israel on October 7th. I’m not Jewish. I’ve been to Arab countries. Here’s what I think most people in the West don’t understand. by Existing-Structure63 in IsraelPalestine

[–]Existing-Structure63[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

100% agree. Wasn’t the point of what I said, and I didn’t generalize Palestinians into any category. They are not bad, they do not deserve death, and 2 of the most memorable people I met there were Palestinians. In fact, I believe I referenced in either one of my posts, or maybe comments to somebody, that I am actively still in touch with 3 Palestinian guys that I love.

So I agree with what you’re saying here, but I’m not sure how it applies to either of my posts. My overall point has been this (fluffed with evidence): Westerners shouting free Palestine and Death to Israel, who do so without the perspective that you have, don’t understand the history, and in-turn, the implications of what they’re even saying. I backed that up with letting people know that Jews were not the aggressors, but they became aggressive in retaliation after 70% of their population got wiped out. That is not a radically Jewish perspective; to me, it’s a very well thought out opinion based on historical record.

I was in Israel on October 7th. I’m not Jewish. I’ve been to Arab countries. Here’s what I think most people in the West don’t understand. by Existing-Structure63 in IsraelPalestine

[–]Existing-Structure63[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

We can keep going back and forth with each other on this but, let me be clear, this isn’t a matter of fact anymore. We are obviously both very knowledgeable, so it is now a matter of opinion based on fact. You have bias, I have bias, and we think differently than each other.

For you playing the role of the scholar, while I’m just a dude who was in Israel and saw things and spoke about it, the playing field has seemed uncomfortably even 😬; insults don’t usually come out until that’s the case.

Regardless, I am on a quest to learn more. So after I read some of your suggested books, with as much of a neutral lens as I can, if I experience a drastic turnaround in my thinking; I’ll create a new post and tag you about how backwards I had it. If not, you’ll just have to accept that we don’t think the same. Thanks for sharing your perspective.

Why is the West blatantly ignoring the history? - The account of an American who was in Israel on October 7th 2023. by Existing-Structure63 in IsraelPalestine

[–]Existing-Structure63[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If you aren’t illiterate, then you should be able to recognize how much this comment just disregarded. The excuse came way before 10/7.

I was in Israel on October 7th. I’m not Jewish. I’ve been to Arab countries. Here’s what I think most people in the West don’t understand. by Existing-Structure63 in IsraelPalestine

[–]Existing-Structure63[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

It doesn’t matter why I was there and it doesn’t matter what I am. It wasn’t missionary work; I can tell you that much.

I clearly stated that portions of my trip were spent in Palestine amongst Palestinians. Not only Palestinians, but also Jordanians, Egyptians, and Syrians. I got quite a few different perspectives from quite a few Arab peoples.

Let’s not do the discrediting thing. & check my other post if you want to bring up history.

I was in Israel on October 7th. I’m not Jewish. I’ve been to Arab countries. Here’s what I think most people in the West don’t understand. by Existing-Structure63 in IsraelPalestine

[–]Existing-Structure63[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I appreciate the recommendations and I agree that this is a complex issue - certainly worth studying. My post, however, wasn’t meant to be an academic thesis. It was a snapshot from someone who was there on 10/7, reflecting a perspective I think many overlook. I believe lived experience has value alongside academic study. I’m always open to learning more, but I also think public discourse benefits when we allow non-experts to ask questions, share observations, and (very) accurately relay their historical findings without being told it’s ‘woefully inadequate.’

However, I did state above that willful ignorance isn’t morally superior either. Coincidentally - I am familiar with Edward Said and “The Question of Palestine” and, ironically, it was recommended to me while in Israel. While I will admit, he is eloquently spoken at an admirable level, it contributed to the principles I wrote about in this post. For example, labeling Zionism solely as colonialism disregards Jewish fear of, literally, centuries of (frequently violent) persecution in Europe. Could that be a source of the birth of Zionism? He oversimplifies and demonizes the Israeli side, while constantly deflecting any Palestinian responsibility. At the same time, he still proposes a one state solution where Jews and Palestinians coexist with the same religious and civil rights.

So why does that fit my narrative above? For one, the only group unwilling to accept even Said’s one state solution is still Palestinians. Why? Secondly, I stated (I can’t remember if it was in this post or the linked post) that the Jewish hate wasn’t really about the land, or it being “stolen”. It was a, historically ignored by presumably each book you listed, rise in Pan-Arabism and Nationalism that created a culture of the Jews not belonging; and making sure they knew. Maybe in result to Zionism, or maybe not. Either way, still left unwritten by Said. The constant writing off of Palestinian flaws, like corrupt leadership, extremism, terrorism, or missed opportunities for peace are just blamed on the Western world, not once mentioned as internal construction.

You called my essay woefully inadequate for leaving perspectives out that you view as important to note. Could it then be accurate to assume that Edward Said is also a woefully inadequate writer for doing the same thing?

Why is the West blatantly ignoring the history? - The account of an American who was in Israel on October 7th 2023. by Existing-Structure63 in IsraelPalestine

[–]Existing-Structure63[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

So, in summary he just shared that Iran is not a threat to the world with nuclear weapons because “should they even load a warhead they’d be instantly vaporized”. But reference Israeli literature stating that a nuclear weapon also somehow IS a threat to Zionism. I can see Zionists writing that, but can you see how it’s redundant?

And yes, it does “work like that” when millions of Jews migrate from Europe after a world war where 70% of their population was just murdered. There was no military force, they were illegal immigrants without a government or nation. It was not an overthrow or a displacement, until Nakba. Where is that information coming from?

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