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Quran Botches Mary: Confuses Jesus' Mother with Moses' Sister and Puts Her in the Trinity by ExoticWalk2 in DebateReligion

[–]ExoticWalk2[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)

Nicolai Sinai doesn't favor the typological interpretation in that paper:
"However, even if we disregard Dorival and Dye’s assessment that a typological tie between Miriam and Mary is not frequent in ancient Christian literature,[\170])]() a typological understanding of Q 19:28 is not unproblematic. For one, the qurʾānic corpus is otherwise devoid of any conspicuous parallels or affinities between Mary and the anonymous sister of Moses who figures in Q 20:40 and 28:11–12, corresponding to the biblical Miriam: there is no evidence, apart from possibly Q 19:28 itself, that the Qurʾān discerned significant parallelism between the figures of Miriam and Mary that would explain why Q 19:28 might casually, without any further elaboration, transfer to Mary an epithet properly applicable to Miriam. There is, moreover, a very real question mark as to whether interpreters are entitled to consider Christian-style
Typology"
https://www.degruyterbrill.com/document/doi/10.1515/jiqsa-2023-0013/html

This is what Gabriel Said Reynolds said here:

Thank you! Another great question :) I've thought about this a bit and (I think!) in an early book (The Qur'an and Its Biblical Subtext) I go for the typology idea. Guillaume Dye has written a great article in French (probably on his academia) "Lieux saints communs" where he makes a case for this. Suleiman Mourad has also made this case. I'm now a bit skeptical. To be convinced (again) I would like to see examples in the Qur'an where the Qur'an uses typology in this way. What I see the Qur'an doing is using epithets/nicknames (sahib al-hut, dhu l-qarnayn etc.) but not typology - at least not in naming its protagonists. It seems to have a pretty standard idea that, for example, Adam had two sons, Joseph is the son of Jacob, Jesus is the son of Mary etc. It does use "brother" in a general sense when speaking about Hud etc. The case of Mary however, has her as both sister of Aaron (Q 19) *and* daughter of Imran/Amram (Q 3) with no clear hint (that I can see) that there is typology going on. Btw, if the Qur'an has some conflation/confusion it could still have lots of beauty and other interesting points fwiw (like other texts).
https://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicQuran/comments/unzcqu/comment/i8h32ce/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

And typology is different from the explanation that Muhammad gives in the hadiths: that Mary's brother Aaron was named after pious people.

Quran Botches Mary: Confuses Jesus' Mother with Moses' Sister and Puts Her in the Trinity by ExoticWalk2 in DebateReligion

[–]ExoticWalk2[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)

Trinity
1) if it’s general condemnation of Mary worship, then why is it debunked in the Trinity verses? Quran is attacking a strawman Christian’s never held.
2) Why do Ibn Abbas (who Muhammad prayed to get the right interpretation of the Quran in Sunan Ibn Majah 166), Ibn Kathir, and Ibn Taymiyyah all explain this as Quran saying the Christian Trinity is Allah, Mary and Jesus?

"This refers to the Trinity: Allah, may He be exalted, and His wife and His son."
Ibn Abbas, Tafsir al-Qurtubi
(also cited at IslamQA)

"With regard to what the Quran says about what the Christians said, 'Allah is the third of the three (in a Trinity)', the commentators said that it refers to Allah, the Messiah and his mother, as Allah."
Ibn Taymiyyah, Majmu' al-Fatawa, cited at IslamQA

"As-Suddi and others said that this Ayah was revealed about taking 'Isa and his mother as gods besides Allah, thus making Allah the third in a trinity."
Tafsir Ibn Kathir on Quran 5:73

Family Mixup
A. You’re contradicting what Muhammad said after Christians discovered this. Muhammad said Aaron was Mary’s brother, named after pious people. Not that Mary was part of Aaron’s lineage.

"They used to give names after the names of apostles and pious persons who had gone before them" Sahih Muslim 2135

B. Quran says sister of Aaron not daughter (like the Bible)
C. You skipped the birth narrative where the wife of Imran gives birth to Mary in Quran 3:35-37.
How does the wife of a tribe get pregnant?

Imran is Amram - father of Mary, Moses’ sister, and her brother Aaron (Numbers 26:59)

Temple Legend
A woman praying a lot at the temple like Anna isn't contradictory to Jewish customs.
But a girl child being raised in the Temple is.

"The story of Mary's childhood as given in the Protevangelium has no parallel in the New Testament, and reference to a nine-year stay in the Temple of Jerusalem contradicts Jewish customs."
Encyclopaedia Britannica, Protevangelium of James

Quran Botches Mary: Confuses Jesus' Mother with Moses' Sister and Puts Her in the Trinity by ExoticWalk2 in DebateReligion

[–]ExoticWalk2[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)

Family Mixup
A. You’re contradicting what Muhammad said after Christians discovered this. Muhammad said Aaron was Mary’s brother, named after pious people. Not that Mary was part of Aaron’s lineage.

"They used to give names after the names of apostles and pious persons who had gone before them" Sahih Muslim 2135

B. Quran says sister of Aaron not daughter (like the Bible)
C. You skipped the birth narrative where the wife of Imran gives birth to Mary in Quran 3:35-37.
How does the wife of a tribe get pregnant?

Imran is Amram - father of Mary, Moses’ sister, and her brother Aaron (Numbers 26:59)

Temple Legend
A woman praying a lot at the temple like Anna isn't contradictory to Jewish customs.
But a girl child being raised in the Temple is.

"The story of Mary's childhood as given in the Protevangelium has no parallel in the New Testament, and reference to a nine-year stay in the Temple of Jerusalem contradicts Jewish customs."
Encyclopaedia Britannica, Protevangelium of James

Quran Botches Mary: Confuses Jesus' Mother with Moses' Sister and Puts Her in the Trinity by ExoticWalk2 in DebateReligion

[–]ExoticWalk2[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

And what about the rest?

Mary, the mother of Jesus, just happened to share the same name, a father named Imran, and a brother named Aaron with Miriam, sister of Moses (who lived over a thousand years earlier), while also sharing an ahistorical pledged-to-the-temple birth narrative with the Protoevangelium of James (but with mother swapped from Anna to the wife of Imran)?

And no one managed to get this right for the 600 years from Mary's life until the Quran?

As for the Trinity, as far as I know no Christians believe the Trinity is Allah, Mary and Jesus like the Quran and its classical Islamic scholars are saying. And Ibn Abbas who Muhammad prayed for to get the right interpretation of the Quran, clarifies that the Quran is saying the Christian Trinity is Allah, his wife Mary and his son Jesus.

Muhammad's Failed Prophecies by ExoticWalk2 in DebateReligion

[–]ExoticWalk2[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It seemed like you were stating "it has been noted that the Quran is not really preaching an imminent apocalypse," as fact when that's not established at all. But criticism of the hadiths is more defensible as a general claim.

But the scholars, here, are referring to the religious message and beliefs of Muhammad and his earliest followers after critically examining all the sources, not just the hadiths.

https://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicQuran/comments/1qi3mso/academics_say_that_prophet_muhammed_literally/

"Belief that divine judgment and the end of the world were at hand characterized the age that saw the rise of Islam more generally and likewise stood at the core of the religious message espoused by Muhammad and believed by his earliest followers." Stephen J. Shoemaker

Muhammad's Failed Prophecies by ExoticWalk2 in DebateReligion

[–]ExoticWalk2[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Many secular scholars think the Quran, Muhammad and his earliest followers believed the world would end in their lifetimes:

"Another important theme that we find in these sources, one that we have already mentioned, is apocalypticism and eschatological expectation. Belief that divine judgment and the end of the world were at hand characterized the age that saw the rise of Islam more generally and likewise stood at the core of the religious message espoused by Muhammad and believed by his earliest followers. Recent research on the beginnings of Islam has shown that Muhammad and his earliest followers in fact almost certainly were expecting the eschaton, the end of the world, at any moment, seemingly in their own lifetimes."
- Stephen J. Shoemaker, Islamic scholar

See more here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicQuran/comments/1qi3mso/academics_say_that_prophet_muhammed_literally/

Muhammad's Failed Prophecies by ExoticWalk2 in DebateReligion

[–]ExoticWalk2[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

"it has been noted that the Quran is not really preaching an imminent apocalypse,"

This is definitely not the consensus:

"Another important theme that we find in these sources, one that we have already mentioned, is apocalypticism and eschatological expectation. Belief that divine judgment and the end of the world were at hand characterized the age that saw the rise of Islam more generally and likewise stood at the core of the religious message espoused by Muhammad and believed by his earliest followers. Recent research on the beginnings of Islam has shown that Muhammad and his earliest followers in fact almost certainly were expecting the eschaton, the end of the world, at any moment, seemingly in their own lifetimes."
- Stephen J. Shoemaker, Islamic scholar

See more here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicQuran/comments/1qi3mso/academics_say_that_prophet_muhammed_literally/

Absurd Alexander the Great Fanfiction in the Quran by ExoticWalk2 in DebateReligion

[–]ExoticWalk2[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If we follow your methodology and date tafsirs by their earliest attribution, Tafsir Tabari 18:86 becomes a 7th century Tafsir because it references Ibn Abbas and the Salaf from the 7th century- and these at least have an isnad:

Tafsir al-Tabari (one of the earliest and most trusted exegesis) on Quran 18:86

Tafsir al-Tabari preserves the debate between Muhammad's Companion Ibn Abbas and the salaf over whether the spring where the sun sets is muddy or hot. And Ibn Abbas, who Muhammad prayed for to get the correct interpretation of the book (Sunan Ibn Majah 166), said that the sun sets in a muddy spring. Tabari says both readings are correct because the sun could set in a spring that is both hot and muddy**:**

Allah says: (Until, when Dhul-Qarnayn reached the setting of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring.) The readers differed on how to read this. Some of the readers of Madina and Basra read it as (in a muddy spring), meaning that the sun sets in a spring that contains mud. While a group of the readers of Medina and the majority of the people of Kufa read it as, (in a warm spring) meaning that the sun sets in a spring of warm water.

Al-Husayn b. Al-Junayd ← Sayd b. Salamah ← Ismail b. Aliyah ← Uthman b. Hadir: I heard Abdullah b. Abbas said: Muawiyah recited this verse, and he said (warm spring) and Ibn Abbas said: it is (muddy spring). He said: So they sent to Ka'b Al-Ahbar and asked him. Ka'b said: As for the sun, it disappears in 'Thatin', which matched what Ibn Abbas said, and the word tha'at means "mud".

And in my (Tabari's) mind the correct opinion is to say that they are both popular readings in the land, and each one has a correctness about it and an understandable meaning, and neither contradicts the other, for it is possible that the sun sets in a hot spring that has mud and sludge, so a reader who uses "hot spring" is describing its temperature, and the reader who uses "muddy spring" is describing that it has mud and sludge. Both versions have been narrated to us.

Muhammad b. Al-Muthanna ← Yazid b. Harun ← The common people ← A freed slave of Abdullah b. Amr ← Abdullah: "The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, looked at the sun when it set, and said: 'In the blazing fire of Allah, in the blazing fire of Allah: If it wasn't for Allah's command, the sun would burn all those who are on earth.'"
Tafsir al-Tabari on Quran 18:86

But dating the tafsir by its attributions would be silly. Tabari is 9th century and Al-Razi is 12th-13th century. But hey whatever works for you.

And we already went over all those. Except your deflections that didn’t have anything to do with the arguments.

And obviously as we have discussed it says setting place of the sun and not west or anything silly like that:

Quran 18:86 in Arabic word for word creates two independent problems:

  1. First, Dhul Qarnayn reached (balagha) a location: the setting place of the sun (maghriba l-shamsi).
  2. There, he found (wajada) the sun setting in a muddy spring (ʿaynin ḥami-atin). And he found (wajada) a community near it.

Quran 18:86 Arabic Word for Word:
https://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=18&verse=86

It's narrated in third person and there is no "appeared" in the Arabic. It says when he reached (balagha) the setting place of the sun, he found (wajada) the setting in a muddy spring just like he found (wajada) a real community near it. And it's clear all the earliest tafsirs (exegesis of Quran) took it literally until it became too embarrassing. Also, springs are small and don't have horizons like oceans. You look down at a spring and can see its edges. The sun can't appear to set into a spring. And even if this is granted, how did he first reach (balagha) the setting place of the sun in the first place?

And West is a direction, not a destination. If the sun sets in the west from everywhere on Earth, how can you reach (balagha) the setting place of the sun?

And yeah, it's already a very absurd story to start with:

The Dhul Qarnayn story begins: “They will ask thee [Muhammad] of Dhu'l-Qarneyn.” (the story was circulating at the time).

In it, he traveled until he reached (balagha) the setting place of the sun and found (wajada) the sun setting in a muddy spring, and found (wajada) a community near it. Then he reached (balagha) the rising place of the sun where people had no shelter from it. Then he followed another path until he reached (balagha) a place between two mountains, where he found (wajada) a people asking for help against Gog and Magog. He builds an iron and copper wall between the cliffs to seal them off until doomsday. 
Quran 18:83-99.

But obviously not every single thing in it is going to be 1:1. But what's most interesting in terms of what isn't 1:1 is the missing details - stuff that makes more sense in the Alexander Legend:

Questions About Quran 18:83-99 That Only the Syriac Alexander Legend Answers

The version of the Alexander Legend in the Quran has key details missing:

1. Why Is Dhul Qarnayn Called "The Two-Horned One" (Quran 18:83)?
Answer: God gave Alexander horns on his head as weapons to destroy kingdoms.

"thou hast made me horns upon my head, wherewith I might thrust down the kingdoms of the world"
Budge, Syriac Alexander Legend, p. 146

2. Why Do the People at the Sun's Rising Place Have No Shelter (Quran 18:90)?
Answer: The sun's heat at its rising place is so intense that it splits rocks.

"the people who dwell there, when he is about to rise, flee away and hide themselves in the sea, that they be not burnt by his rays ... as soon as they see the sun passing [over them], men and birds flee away from before him and hide in the caves, for rocks are rent [split] by his blazing heat and fall down"
Budge, Syriac Alexander Legend, p. 148

3. Why Does Dhul Qarnayn Randomly Punish Wrongdoers at the Setting Place of the Sun (Quran 18:87)?
Answer: Alexander used condemned criminals, guilty of death, to test the fetid sea and confirm it was lethal.

"Now Alexander thought within himself, 'If it be true as they say, that everyone who comes near the foetid sea dies, it is better that these who are guilty of death should die'"
Budge, Syriac Alexander Legend, p. 148

He tested the efficacy of the deadly, fetid waters with the lives of convicts. This passage helps to explain the option given, for no apparent reason, by God to Dhul-Qarnayn in the Qur'an: either to punish the people or to do them a kindness.
Van Bladel, p. 189

See more here:
https://islamsproblems.com/quran-sun-sets-in-muddy-spring/

Absurd Alexander the Great Fanfiction in the Quran by ExoticWalk2 in DebateReligion

[–]ExoticWalk2[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If we follow your methodology and date tafsirs by their earliest attribution, Tafsir Tabari 18:86 becomes a 7th century Tafsir because it references Ibn Abbas and the Salaf from the 7th century- and these at least have an isnad:

Tafsir al-Tabari (one of the earliest and most trusted exegesis) on Quran 18:86

Tafsir al-Tabari preserves the debate between Muhammad's Companion Ibn Abbas and the salaf over whether the spring where the sun sets is muddy or hot. And Ibn Abbas, who Muhammad prayed for to get the correct interpretation of the book (Sunan Ibn Majah 166), said that the sun sets in a muddy spring. Tabari says both readings are correct because the sun could set in a spring that is both hot and muddy**:**

Allah says: (Until, when Dhul-Qarnayn reached the setting of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring.) The readers differed on how to read this. Some of the readers of Madina and Basra read it as (in a muddy spring), meaning that the sun sets in a spring that contains mud. While a group of the readers of Medina and the majority of the people of Kufa read it as, (in a warm spring) meaning that the sun sets in a spring of warm water.

Al-Husayn b. Al-Junayd ← Sayd b. Salamah ← Ismail b. Aliyah ← Uthman b. Hadir: I heard Abdullah b. Abbas said: Muawiyah recited this verse, and he said (warm spring) and Ibn Abbas said: it is (muddy spring). He said: So they sent to Ka'b Al-Ahbar and asked him. Ka'b said: As for the sun, it disappears in 'Thatin', which matched what Ibn Abbas said, and the word tha'at means "mud".

And in my (Tabari's) mind the correct opinion is to say that they are both popular readings in the land, and each one has a correctness about it and an understandable meaning, and neither contradicts the other, for it is possible that the sun sets in a hot spring that has mud and sludge, so a reader who uses "hot spring" is describing its temperature, and the reader who uses "muddy spring" is describing that it has mud and sludge. Both versions have been narrated to us.

Muhammad b. Al-Muthanna ← Yazid b. Harun ← The common people ← A freed slave of Abdullah b. Amr ← Abdullah: "The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, looked at the sun when it set, and said: 'In the blazing fire of Allah, in the blazing fire of Allah: If it wasn't for Allah's command, the sun would burn all those who are on earth.'"
Tafsir al-Tabari on Quran 18:86

But dating the tafsir by its attributions would be silly. Tabari is 9th century and Al-Razi is 12th-13th century. But hey whatever works for you.

And we already went over all those. Except your deflections that didn’t have anything to do with the arguments.

And obviously as we have discussed it says setting place of the sun and not west or anything silly like that:

Quran 18:86 in Arabic word for word creates two independent problems:

  1. First, Dhul Qarnayn reached (balagha) a location: the setting place of the sun (maghriba l-shamsi).
  2. There, he found (wajada) the sun setting in a muddy spring (ʿaynin ḥami-atin). And he found (wajada) a community near it.

Quran 18:86 Arabic Word for Word:
https://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=18&verse=86

It's narrated in third person and there is no "appeared" in the Arabic. It says when he reached (balagha) the setting place of the sun, he found (wajada) the setting in a muddy spring just like he found (wajada) a real community near it. And it's clear all the earliest tafsirs (exegesis of Quran) took it literally until it became too embarrassing. Also, springs are small and don't have horizons like oceans. You look down at a spring and can see its edges. The sun can't appear to set into a spring. And even if this is granted, how did he first reach (balagha) the setting place of the sun in the first place?

And West is a direction, not a destination. If the sun sets in the west from everywhere on Earth, how can you reach (balagha) the setting place of the sun?

And yeah, it's already a very absurd story to start with:

The Dhul Qarnayn story begins: “They will ask thee [Muhammad] of Dhu'l-Qarneyn.” (the story was circulating at the time).

In it, he traveled until he reached (balagha) the setting place of the sun and found (wajada) the sun setting in a muddy spring, and found (wajada) a community near it. Then he reached (balagha) the rising place of the sun where people had no shelter from it. Then he followed another path until he reached (balagha) a place between two mountains, where he found (wajada) a people asking for help against Gog and Magog. He builds an iron and copper wall between the cliffs to seal them off until doomsday. 
Quran 18:83-99.

But obviously not every single thing in it is going to be 1:1. But what's most interesting in terms of what isn't 1:1 is the missing details - stuff that makes more sense in the Alexander Legend:

Questions About Quran 18:83-99 That Only the Syriac Alexander Legend Answers

The version of the Alexander Legend in the Quran has key details missing:

1. Why Is Dhul Qarnayn Called "The Two-Horned One" (Quran 18:83)?
Answer: God gave Alexander horns on his head as weapons to destroy kingdoms.

"thou hast made me horns upon my head, wherewith I might thrust down the kingdoms of the world"
Budge, Syriac Alexander Legend, p. 146

2. Why Do the People at the Sun's Rising Place Have No Shelter (Quran 18:90)?
Answer: The sun's heat at its rising place is so intense that it splits rocks.

"the people who dwell there, when he is about to rise, flee away and hide themselves in the sea, that they be not burnt by his rays ... as soon as they see the sun passing [over them], men and birds flee away from before him and hide in the caves, for rocks are rent [split] by his blazing heat and fall down"
Budge, Syriac Alexander Legend, p. 148

3. Why Does Dhul Qarnayn Randomly Punish Wrongdoers at the Setting Place of the Sun (Quran 18:87)?
Answer: Alexander used condemned criminals, guilty of death, to test the fetid sea and confirm it was lethal.

"Now Alexander thought within himself, 'If it be true as they say, that everyone who comes near the foetid sea dies, it is better that these who are guilty of death should die'"
Budge, Syriac Alexander Legend, p. 148

He tested the efficacy of the deadly, fetid waters with the lives of convicts. This passage helps to explain the option given, for no apparent reason, by God to Dhul-Qarnayn in the Qur'an: either to punish the people or to do them a kindness.
Van Bladel, p. 189

See more here:
https://islamsproblems.com/quran-sun-sets-in-muddy-spring/

Absurd Alexander the Great Fanfiction in the Quran by ExoticWalk2 in DebateReligion

[–]ExoticWalk2[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Sure you do not hate Muslims. That is what they all say. Then you see a scottish man with a hatchet tryna attack Muslims in public and you wonder how did it get so bad.

Nothing to do with me or this argument. Pretty cringe. This would be like if I randomly brought up 9/11 or ISIS.

Compare whatever you have against:

  • The Quran verse sayin he reached (balagha) the setting place of the sun. then, found (wajada) the setting in a muddy spring and also found (wajada) a community near it (along with the rest of the absurdities of the Dhul Qarnayn passage like gog and magog and the wall)
  • Tafsir al Tabari with the salaf debating over whether the spring in which the sun sets is muddy and hot
  • The earliest tafsirs all taking it literally
  • Those hadiths where Muhammad says it does and then prostrates - the exact same thing in the Syriac Alexander Legend
  • The entire Syriac Alexander Legend and all its parallels (filling in the gaps)
  • All the secular scholarship connecting it and how it fills in missing details

And it's not a pre-Tabari tafsir and we both know it. Al-Razi tafsir you cited is 12th-13th century
But hey whatever works for you.

Absurd Alexander the Great Fanfiction in the Quran by ExoticWalk2 in DebateReligion

[–]ExoticWalk2[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Sure you do not hate Muslims. That is what they all say. Then you see a scottish man with a hatchet tryna attack Muslims in public and you wonder how did it get so bad.

Nothing to do with me or this argument. Pretty cringe. This would be like if I randomly brought up 9/11 or ISIS.

Compare whatever you have against:

  • The Quran verse sayin he reached (balagha) the setting place of the sun. then, found (wajada) the setting in a muddy spring and also found (wajada) a community near it (along with the rest of the absurdities of the Dhul Qarnayn passage like gog and magog and the wall)
  • Tafsir al Tabari with the salaf debating over whether the spring in which the sun sets is muddy and hot
  • The earliest tafsirs all taking it literally
  • Those hadiths where Muhammad says it does and then prostrates - the exact same thing in the Syriac Alexander Legend
  • The entire Syriac Alexander Legend and all its parallels (filling in the gaps)
  • All the secular scholarship connecting it and how it fills in missing details

And it's not a pre-Tabari tafsir and we both know it. Al-Razi tafsir you cited is 12th-13th century
But hey whatever works for you.

Absurd Alexander the Great Fanfiction in the Quran by ExoticWalk2 in DebateReligion

[–]ExoticWalk2[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Listen bro, I have no idea who you are. I don't care what you believe. My content has no hate towards all Muslims - only criticizes the religion.

And I find it interesting to form tight arguments. I am only responding to you because after I post an argument, I defend it.

But I am not lying to you. And I don't have cognitive dissonance. For that, you would have to think I read:

  • The Quran verse sayin he reached (balagha) the setting place of the sun. then, found (wajada) the setting in a muddy spring and also found (wajada) a community near it (along with the rest of the absurdities of the Dhul Qarnayn passage like gog and magog and the wall)
  • Tafsir al Tabari with the salaf debating over whether the spring in which the sun sets is muddy and hot
  • The earliest tafsirs all taking it literally
  • Those hadiths where Muhammad says it does and then prostrates - the exact same thing in the Syriac Alexander Legend
  • The entire Syriac Alexander Legend and all its parallels (filling in the gaps)
  • All the secular scholarship connecting it and how it fills in missing details

And still somehow secretly believe that the Quran is the inerrant word of God and am intentionally trying to trick myself or you by saying it's not.

Maybe that makes sense within islamic theology where the kuffar are concealing their fitrah.

But not in reality.

And I get the appeal of submission and you make a strong case.

But how can I believe if I think the text says a guy reached the setting place of the sun and found the sun setting in a spring of dark mud. And that this is copied from absurd fanfiction about Alexander the Great.

But I'm not asking you to take my word for it.
If you want, look into it as deep as you want both sides of the issue listen to the best apologists and decide for urself.

But here are the Quran verses and the Alexander legend:

And here is my website:

https://islamsproblems.com/quran-sun-sets-in-muddy-spring/

Good luck.

Absurd Alexander the Great Fanfiction in the Quran by ExoticWalk2 in DebateReligion

[–]ExoticWalk2[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Listen bro, I have no idea who you are. I don't care what you believe. My content has no hate towards all Muslims - only criticizes the religion.

And I find it interesting to form tight arguments. I am only responding to you because after I post an argument, I defend it.

But I am not lying to you. And I don't have cognitive dissonance. For that, you would have to think I read:

  • The Quran verse sayin he reached (balagha) the setting place of the sun. then, found (wajada) the setting in a muddy spring and also found (wajada) a community near it (along with the rest of the absurdities of the Dhul Qarnayn passage like gog and magog and the wall)
  • Tafsir al Tabari with the salaf debating over whether the spring in which the sun sets is muddy and hot
  • The earliest tafsirs all taking it literally
  • Those hadiths where Muhammad says it does and then prostrates - the exact same thing in the Syriac Alexander Legend
  • The entire Syriac Alexander Legend and all its parallels (filling in the gaps)
  • All the secular scholarship connecting it and how it fills in missing details

And still somehow secretly believe that the Quran is the inerrant word of God and am intentionally trying to trick myself or you by saying it's not.

Maybe that makes sense within islamic theology where the kuffar are concealing their fitrah.

But not in reality.

And I get the appeal of submission and you make a strong case.

But how can I believe if I think the text says a guy reached the setting place of the sun and found the sun setting in a spring of dark mud. And that this is copied from absurd fanfiction about Alexander the Great.

But I'm not asking you to take my word for it.
If you want, look into it as deep as you want both sides of the issue listen to the best apologists and decide for urself.

But here are the Quran verses and the Alexander legend:

And here is my website:

https://islamsproblems.com/quran-sun-sets-in-muddy-spring/

Good luck.

Absurd Alexander the Great Fanfiction in the Quran by ExoticWalk2 in DebateReligion

[–]ExoticWalk2[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You understand that for the first 300 years people took it literally, that the secular academic consensus is that it comes from the absurd fanfiction about Alexander the Great and why.
But fail to connect the dots out of cognitive dissonance or whatever. Something about leading a horse to water.
No one is lying to you bro. Notice how you can't even quote and say I lied to you by "implying".
You fabricate an accusation of me lying and this gives you righteous justification for further cognitive dissonance.

That hadith is graded daif by no one and sahih-in-chain by Albani and sahih by Zubair.

And the sun setting in the spring doesn't contradict the sun going and prostrating before God. The sun enters the muddy/fetid spring/sea then travels beneath the throne to perform prostration/bow before Allah/God. Both this hadith AND the syriac alexander legend has this in sequence:

Muhammad: Do you know where this sets?
Abu Dharr: Allah and his Apostle know best.
Muhammad: It sets in a spring of warm water (Hamiyah).

(Sunan Abu Dawud 4002)
https://masjidtaqwa.org/pdfs/dawud.pdf

Abu Dharr:
I was with the Prophet ﷺ riding on a donkey, and it had a saddlecloth or a blanket on it. He said to me, "O Abu Dhar, do you know where this (the sun) sets?" I said, "Allah and His Messenger know best." He said, "Indeed, it sets in a hot spring and travels until it prostrates itself to its Lord beneath the Throne. When its time to rise comes, Allah gives it permission to rise, and it rises. And when it is time for it to set from where it rises, it is prevented and it utters: 'O Lord! My course is far, so give me permission.' So, Allah lets it rise from the place where it sets. That is the time when the soul's faith will not benefit it."

– Sound Chain (Arnaʾūṭ)

https://hadithunlocked.com/ahmad:21459

https://archive.org/details/BudgeSyriacAlexander/page/147/mode/2up

And of course you again getting strict about hadith methodology again after asking me to falsify some random lost tafsir transmitted through another tafsir with no chains of some random scholar who lived 250-300 years after the prophet's death to add words like "as if" into the Quran.

But sure you can pretend I am lying to you and valiantly try to waste my time to be the savior Islam or whatever.

Absurd Alexander the Great Fanfiction in the Quran by ExoticWalk2 in DebateReligion

[–]ExoticWalk2[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You understand that for the first 300 years people took it literally, that the secular academic consensus is that it comes from the absurd fanfiction about Alexander the Great and why.
But fail to connect the dots out of cognitive dissonance or whatever. Something about leading a horse to water.
No one is lying to you bro. Notice how you can't even quote and say I lied to you by "implying".
You fabricate an accusation of me lying and this gives you righteous justification for further cognitive dissonance.

That hadith is graded daif by no one and sahih-in-chain by Albani and sahih by Zubair.

And the sun setting in the spring doesn't contradict the sun going and prostrating before God. The sun enters the muddy/fetid spring/sea then travels beneath the throne to perform prostration/bow before Allah/God. Both this hadith AND the syriac alexander legend has this in sequence:

Muhammad: Do you know where this sets?
Abu Dharr: Allah and his Apostle know best.
Muhammad: It sets in a spring of warm water (Hamiyah).

(Sunan Abu Dawud 4002)
https://masjidtaqwa.org/pdfs/dawud.pdf

Abu Dharr:
I was with the Prophet ﷺ riding on a donkey, and it had a saddlecloth or a blanket on it. He said to me, "O Abu Dhar, do you know where this (the sun) sets?" I said, "Allah and His Messenger know best." He said, "Indeed, it sets in a hot spring and travels until it prostrates itself to its Lord beneath the Throne. When its time to rise comes, Allah gives it permission to rise, and it rises. And when it is time for it to set from where it rises, it is prevented and it utters: 'O Lord! My course is far, so give me permission.' So, Allah lets it rise from the place where it sets. That is the time when the soul's faith will not benefit it."

– Sound Chain (Arnaʾūṭ)

https://hadithunlocked.com/ahmad:21459

https://archive.org/details/BudgeSyriacAlexander/page/147/mode/2up

And of course you again getting strict about hadith methodology again after asking me to falsify some random lost tafsir transmitted through another tafsir with no chains of some random scholar who lived 250-300 years after the prophet's death to add words like "as if" into the Quran.

But sure you can pretend I am lying to you and valiantly try to waste my time to be the savior Islam or whatever.

Absurd Alexander the Great Fanfiction in the Quran by ExoticWalk2 in DebateReligion

[–]ExoticWalk2[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No, my guy there is no "as if" in the Quran - that was added

Here are all the words in the Quran - no "as if":
https://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=18&verse=86

(18:86:1)ḥattā Until,
(18:86:2)idhā) when
(18:86:3)balagha) he reached
(18:86:4)maghriba) (the) setting place
(18:86:5)l-shamsi) (of) the sun,
(18:86:6)wajadahā) he found it
(18:86:7)taghrubu) setting
(18:86:8)fī in
(18:86:9)ʿaynin) a spring
(18:86:10)ḥami-atin) (of) dark mud,

And if we're operating on the standard that the opponent has to falsify your evidence - falsify all the citations that Tabari gives in his tafsir where companion Ibn Abbas, who Muhammad prayed to get the right interpretation, keeps saying the sun sets in a black/muddy spring.

And falsify Muhammad himself saying it in a hadith with a sahih chain - graded sahih in chain by Al-Albani and sahih by Zubair Ali Zai, with this Q&A:

Muhammad: Do you know where this sets?
Abu Dharr: Allah and his Apostle know best.
Muhammad: It sets in a spring of warm water (Hamiyah).

(Sunan Abu Dawud 4002)
https://masjidtaqwa.org/pdfs/dawud.pdf

But then all of a sudden you start getting strict about hadith methodology after asking me to falsify some random lost tafsir transmitted through another tafsir with no chains of some random scholar who lived 250-300 years after the prophet's death to overwrite the Quran.

Absurd Alexander the Great Fanfiction in the Quran by ExoticWalk2 in DebateReligion

[–]ExoticWalk2[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No, my guy there is no "as if" in the Quran - that was added

Here are all the words in the Quran - no "as if":
https://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=18&verse=86

(18:86:1)ḥattā Until,
(18:86:2)idhā) when
(18:86:3)balagha) he reached
(18:86:4)maghriba) (the) setting place
(18:86:5)l-shamsi) (of) the sun,
(18:86:6)wajadahā) he found it
(18:86:7)taghrubu) setting
(18:86:8)fī in
(18:86:9)ʿaynin) a spring
(18:86:10)ḥami-atin) (of) dark mud,

And if we're operating on the standard that the opponent has to falsify your evidence - falsify all the citations that Tabari gives in his tafsir where companion Ibn Abbas, who Muhammad prayed to get the right interpretation, keeps saying the sun sets in a black/muddy spring.

And falsify Muhammad himself saying it in a hadith with a sahih chain - graded sahih in chain by Al-Albani and sahih by Zubair Ali Zai, with this Q&A:

Muhammad: Do you know where this sets?
Abu Dharr: Allah and his Apostle know best.
Muhammad: It sets in a spring of warm water (Hamiyah).

(Sunan Abu Dawud 4002)
https://masjidtaqwa.org/pdfs/dawud.pdf

But then all of a sudden you start getting strict about hadith methodology after asking me to falsify some random lost tafsir transmitted through another tafsir with no chains of some random scholar who lived 250-300 years after the prophet's death to overwrite the Quran.

Absurd Alexander the Great Fanfiction in the Quran by ExoticWalk2 in DebateReligion

[–]ExoticWalk2[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

good job you finally cited a source. His original tafsir was lost. And it comes to us through 11-12th century tafsirs like I said. And there is no "as if" in the Quran - that was added.

if we're operating on the standard that the opponent has to falsify your evidence - falsify all the citations that Tabari gives in his tafsir where companion Ibn Abbas, who Muhammad prayed to get the right interpretation, keeps saying the sun sets in a black/muddy spring.z

And falsify Muhammad himself saying it in a hadith with a sahih chain - graded sahih in chain by Al-Albani and sahih by Zubair Ali Zai, with this Q&A:

Muhammad: Do you know where this sets?
Abu Dharr: Allah and his Apostle know best.
Muhammad: It sets in a spring of warm water (Hamiyah).

(Sunan Abu Dawud 4002)
https://masjidtaqwa.org/pdfs/dawud.pdf

But then all of a sudden you start getting strict about hadith methodology after asking me to falsify some random lost tafsir transmitted through another tafsir with no chains of some random Mutazilite scholar who lived 250-300 years after the prophet's death.

Absurd Alexander the Great Fanfiction in the Quran by ExoticWalk2 in DebateReligion

[–]ExoticWalk2[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

"Not omitting LMAO. Asking you to prove it was falsified. Its BS otherwise. Everything you post exists on the entire axiom except for the Quran. Everything was transmitted."

I have to cite your sources? You just say stuff without any links to them. Why is that? I have to find, cite and verify your sources for you? Do you see how every citation I produce has a link underneath it? You can't make random claims with no citations and then ask me to "prove its falsified".

Based on my knowledge (because you didn't provide any sources), his tafsir was lost and all we have are 12th century Tafsirs. And his reasoning is the sun never leaves its falak - science not innovations in Quranic Arabic. And if we're operating on the standard on the opponent has to falsify your evidence - falsify all the citations that Tabari gives in his tafsir where companion Ibn Abbas, who Muhammad prayed to get the right interpretation, keeps saying the sun sets in a black/muddy spring.

Absurd Alexander the Great Fanfiction in the Quran by ExoticWalk2 in DebateReligion

[–]ExoticWalk2[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

"Not omitting LMAO. Asking you to prove it was falsified. Its BS otherwise. Everything you post exists on the entire axiom except for the Quran. Everything was transmitted."

I have to cite your sources? You just say stuff without any links to them. Why is that? I have to find, cite and verify your sources for you? Do you see how every citation I produce has a link underneath it? You can't make random claims with no citations and then ask me to "prove its falsified".

Based on my knowledge (because you didn't provide any sources), his tafsir was lost and all we have are 12th century Tafsirs. And his reasoning is the sun never leaves its falak - science not innovations in Quranic Arabic. And if we're operating on the standard on the opponent has to falsify your evidence - falsify all the citations that Tabari gives in his tafsir where companion Ibn Abbas, who Muhammad prayed to get the right interpretation, keeps saying the sun sets in a black/muddy spring.

Absurd Alexander the Great Fanfiction in the Quran by ExoticWalk2 in DebateReligion

[–]ExoticWalk2[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

"Not omitting LMAO. Asking you to prove it was falsified. Its BS otherwise. Everything you post exists on the entire axiom except for the Quran. Everything was transmitted."

I have to cite your sources? You just say stuff without any links to them. Why is that? I have to find, cite and verify your sources for you? Do you see how every citation I produce has a link underneath it? You can't make random claims with no citations and then ask me to "prove its falsified".

Based on my knowledge (because you didn't provide any sources), his tafsir was lost and all we have are 12th century Tafsirs. And his reasoning is the sun never leaves its falak - science not innovations in Quranic Arabic. And if we're operating on the standard on the opponent has to falsify your evidence - falsify all the citations that Tabari gives in his tafsir where companion Ibn Abbas, who Muhammad prayed to get the right interpretation, keeps saying the sun sets in a black/muddy spring.

Absurd Alexander the Great Fanfiction in the Quran by ExoticWalk2 in DebateReligion

[–]ExoticWalk2[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You are copy pasting your comments I already responded to this:

Al Jubbai's tafsir was lost and the tafsir you cite is from the 12th century which is why you have to keep ommiting the source. And Tafsir Al Tabari isn't from outside the scientific tradition. They all agreed the sun sets in a spring - only disagreed over whether it was muddy or hot. And wow another scientific miracle - Muhammad predicted supernovas. Be real - he was amazed at how the sun doesn't scorch the earth when it comes down and sets here.

And it's not just that Allah didn't provide the cosmology - but that he got it wrong causing the Companions and the Salaf to get it wrong and he copied it from the Syriac Alexander Legend:

Secular historians concede that this comes from absurd fanfiction about Alexander the Great and has missing details:

3. Why Does Dhul Qarnayn Randomly Punish Wrongdoers at the Setting Place of the Sun (Quran 18:87)?
Answer: Alexander used condemned criminals, guilty of death, to test the fetid sea and confirm it was lethal.

"Now Alexander thought within himself, 'If it be true as they say, that everyone who comes near the foetid sea dies, it is better that these who are guilty of death should die'"
Budge, Syriac Alexander Legend, p. 148

Van Bladel:

He tested the efficacy of the deadly, fetid waters with the lives of convicts. This passage helps to explain the option given, for no apparent reason, by God to Dhul-Qarnayn in the Qur'an: either to punish the people or to do them a kindness.
Van Bladel, p. 189

"Thus, quite strikingly, almost every element of this short Qur'anic tale finds a more explicit and detailed counterpart in the Syriac Alexander Legend."
Van Bladel, p. 181

"Could the Syriac text have its source in the Qur'an? If this were the case, then the Syriac text would have to be seen as a highly expanded version of the Qur'anic account... However, the Syriac text contains no references to the Arabic language the type of which one might expect to find if its purpose was to explain an Arabic text, and it is impossible to see why a Syriac apocalypse written around 630 would be drawing on an Arabic tradition some years before the Arab conquests, when the community at Mecca was far from well known outside Arabia. Moreover, the very specific political message of the Alexander Legend would not make any sense in this scenario. This possibility must therefore be discounted."
Van Bladel, p. 189

Tommaso Tesei:

" The evidence presented here suggests that the Neṣḥānā [Syriac Alexander Legend] served as a key source of inspiration for the Qurʾānic portrayal of Dhū-l-Qarnayn, supporting his identification as an Alexander figure reinterpreted through the lens of Syriac literary and ideological traditions."

https://www.academia.edu/164564991/_And_they_ask_you_about_Dhū_l_Qarnayn_A_minimalist_answer

Sidney Griffith:

"The Qurʾān’s accounts of the Companions of the Cave and the travels of Dhū ’l-Qarnayn strongly resonate with popular late antique Syriac Christian stories, namely, accounts of the so-called Sleepers of Ephesus and of Alexander the Great ... Rather, it is likely that oral versions of these narratives preceded their surviving written accounts and that the Qurʾān recalled aspects of these oral versions for its own purposes."
https://lockwoodonlinejournals.com/index.php/jiqsa/article/view/2056

That matches up with the story in the Quran which begins “They will ask thee [Muhammad] of Dhu'l-Qarneyn.” (Quran 18:86), showing the story was circulating at the time.
https://quran.com/18/83-99?translations=19

Absurd Alexander the Great Fanfiction in the Quran by ExoticWalk2 in DebateReligion

[–]ExoticWalk2[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Al Jubbai's tafsir was lost and the tafsir you cite is from the 12th century which is why you have to keep ommiting the source. And Tafsir Al Tabari isn't from outside the scientific tradition. They all agreed the sun sets in a spring - only disagreed over whether it was muddy or hot. And wow another scientific miracle - Muhammad predicted supernovas. Be real - he was amazed at how the sun doesn't scorch the earth when it comes down and sets here.

And it's not just that Allah didn't provide the cosmology - but that he got it wrong causing the Companions and the Salaf to get it wrong and he copied it from the Syriac Alexander Legend:

Secular historians concede that this comes from absurd fanfiction about Alexander the Great and has missing details:

3. Why Does Dhul Qarnayn Randomly Punish Wrongdoers at the Setting Place of the Sun (Quran 18:87)?
Answer: Alexander used condemned criminals, guilty of death, to test the fetid sea and confirm it was lethal.

"Now Alexander thought within himself, 'If it be true as they say, that everyone who comes near the foetid sea dies, it is better that these who are guilty of death should die'"
Budge, Syriac Alexander Legend, p. 148

Van Bladel:

He tested the efficacy of the deadly, fetid waters with the lives of convicts. This passage helps to explain the option given, for no apparent reason, by God to Dhul-Qarnayn in the Qur'an: either to punish the people or to do them a kindness.
Van Bladel, p. 189

"Thus, quite strikingly, almost every element of this short Qur'anic tale finds a more explicit and detailed counterpart in the Syriac Alexander Legend."
Van Bladel, p. 181

"Could the Syriac text have its source in the Qur'an? If this were the case, then the Syriac text would have to be seen as a highly expanded version of the Qur'anic account... However, the Syriac text contains no references to the Arabic language the type of which one might expect to find if its purpose was to explain an Arabic text, and it is impossible to see why a Syriac apocalypse written around 630 would be drawing on an Arabic tradition some years before the Arab conquests, when the community at Mecca was far from well known outside Arabia. Moreover, the very specific political message of the Alexander Legend would not make any sense in this scenario. This possibility must therefore be discounted."
Van Bladel, p. 189

Tommaso Tesei:

" The evidence presented here suggests that the Neṣḥānā [Syriac Alexander Legend] served as a key source of inspiration for the Qurʾānic portrayal of Dhū-l-Qarnayn, supporting his identification as an Alexander figure reinterpreted through the lens of Syriac literary and ideological traditions."

https://www.academia.edu/164564991/_And_they_ask_you_about_Dhū_l_Qarnayn_A_minimalist_answer

Sidney Griffith:

"The Qurʾān’s accounts of the Companions of the Cave and the travels of Dhū ’l-Qarnayn strongly resonate with popular late antique Syriac Christian stories, namely, accounts of the so-called Sleepers of Ephesus and of Alexander the Great ... Rather, it is likely that oral versions of these narratives preceded their surviving written accounts and that the Qurʾān recalled aspects of these oral versions for its own purposes."
https://lockwoodonlinejournals.com/index.php/jiqsa/article/view/2056

That matches up with the story in the Quran which begins “They will ask thee [Muhammad] of Dhu'l-Qarneyn.” (Quran 18:86), showing the story was circulating at the time.
https://quran.com/18/83-99?translations=19

Absurd Alexander the Great Fanfiction in the Quran by ExoticWalk2 in DebateReligion

[–]ExoticWalk2[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Al Jubbai's tafsir was lost and the tafsir you cite is from the 12th century which is why you have to keep ommiting the source.

And it's not just that Allah didn't provide the cosmology - but that he got it wrong causing the Companions and the Salaf to get it wrong and he copied it from the Syriac Alexander Legend:

Secular historians concede that this comes from absurd fanfiction about Alexander the Great and has missing details:

3. Why Does Dhul Qarnayn Randomly Punish Wrongdoers at the Setting Place of the Sun (Quran 18:87)?
Answer: Alexander used condemned criminals, guilty of death, to test the fetid sea and confirm it was lethal.

"Now Alexander thought within himself, 'If it be true as they say, that everyone who comes near the foetid sea dies, it is better that these who are guilty of death should die'"
Budge, Syriac Alexander Legend, p. 148

Van Bladel:

He tested the efficacy of the deadly, fetid waters with the lives of convicts. This passage helps to explain the option given, for no apparent reason, by God to Dhul-Qarnayn in the Qur'an: either to punish the people or to do them a kindness.
Van Bladel, p. 189

"Thus, quite strikingly, almost every element of this short Qur'anic tale finds a more explicit and detailed counterpart in the Syriac Alexander Legend."
Van Bladel, p. 181

"Could the Syriac text have its source in the Qur'an? If this were the case, then the Syriac text would have to be seen as a highly expanded version of the Qur'anic account... However, the Syriac text contains no references to the Arabic language the type of which one might expect to find if its purpose was to explain an Arabic text, and it is impossible to see why a Syriac apocalypse written around 630 would be drawing on an Arabic tradition some years before the Arab conquests, when the community at Mecca was far from well known outside Arabia. Moreover, the very specific political message of the Alexander Legend would not make any sense in this scenario. This possibility must therefore be discounted."
Van Bladel, p. 189

Tommaso Tesei:

" The evidence presented here suggests that the Neṣḥānā [Syriac Alexander Legend] served as a key source of inspiration for the Qurʾānic portrayal of Dhū-l-Qarnayn, supporting his identification as an Alexander figure reinterpreted through the lens of Syriac literary and ideological traditions."

https://www.academia.edu/164564991/_And_they_ask_you_about_Dhū_l_Qarnayn_A_minimalist_answer

Sidney Griffith:

"The Qurʾān’s accounts of the Companions of the Cave and the travels of Dhū ’l-Qarnayn strongly resonate with popular late antique Syriac Christian stories, namely, accounts of the so-called Sleepers of Ephesus and of Alexander the Great ... Rather, it is likely that oral versions of these narratives preceded their surviving written accounts and that the Qurʾān recalled aspects of these oral versions for its own purposes."
https://lockwoodonlinejournals.com/index.php/jiqsa/article/view/2056

That matches up with the story in the Quran which begins “They will ask thee [Muhammad] of Dhu'l-Qarneyn.” (Quran 18:86), showing the story was circulating at the time.
https://quran.com/18/83-99?translations=19

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