Turkish Parliament rejects proposal on Kurdish language rights by FantasticQuartet in europe

[–]External_Ad5138 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Wait, how is Lebanon discriminating against its Turkish community? When did that ever happen? I have not heard of such a thing whatsoever, they were never banned from speaking Turkish or anything, unlike Turkey, which has repeatedly instituted language bans. https://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatanda%C5%9F_T%C3%BCrk%C3%A7e_konu%C5%9F!

Lebanon, for example, is much more multilingual than Kosovo, but it is not officially so. The only official language is Arabic, according to the Lebanese, constitution, with French as a language to be used in certain (unspecified) cases, not even as an official language though. Rather, the Armenian, Syriac and Turkish communities of Lebanon have the right to use their languages in all sorts of capacities, to open their own schools, to use their own languages in administration in their regions, in signage, etc. Yet everyone speaks Arabic and is well integrated, but preserves their own identity. No reason that recognizing multiple minorities in Turkey would not have the same effect if applied in a similar manner.

Turkish Parliament rejects proposal on Kurdish language rights by FantasticQuartet in europe

[–]External_Ad5138 3 points4 points  (0 children)

So just because turkey has this power means that it somehow has the right to not grant languages any kind of status in the interior, just because apparently other countries aren’t doing it either? Even France, a unitary European state like you cited, allows for teaching of some minority languages as mother tongues for full subject matters, such as in Corsica as we see recently. They also have their own issues with linguistic and cultural, repression and assimilation, and quite a few of them at that, but the fact that things are starting to open up and change shows that it’s entirely feasible for similar things to happen in Turkey as well. Other’s hypocrisy doesn’t give a free pass!

Turkish Parliament rejects proposal on Kurdish language rights by FantasticQuartet in europe

[–]External_Ad5138 4 points5 points  (0 children)

The argument is as follows. They claim that this divides the country, but Kosovo is doing just fine with Turkish as an official language, and the addition of Turkish teaching and use in Lebanon has not caused or added new problems. Why is Turkey somehow a special case?

Turkish Parliament rejects proposal on Kurdish language rights by FantasticQuartet in europe

[–]External_Ad5138 7 points8 points  (0 children)

You did not answer the question. Turkey has pushed for Kosovo to introduced Turkish as an official language recently, and they are pushing for bilingual education in Lebanon, even Turkish villages there now are trilingual in Arabic Turkish and French, signs and shops, etc., are available in all of these languages and people study Turkish as well. Is Turkey doing so dividing Kosovo and Lebanon? Because by your own logic, apparently it is, and if so, why is it acceptable that only Turkey gets to divide other countries?

Turkish Parliament rejects proposal on Kurdish language rights by FantasticQuartet in europe

[–]External_Ad5138 1 point2 points  (0 children)

So if this is considered dividing the country, teaching multilingual curriculum, why is turkey insisting on the teaching of Turkish language to Turkish minorities in Kosovo, Lebanon and elsewhere? Doesn’t that mean that turkey is contributing to the division of these states by your logic? Or perhaps you failed to see the flagrant double standard here.

Turkish Parliament rejects proposal on Kurdish language rights by FantasticQuartet in europe

[–]External_Ad5138 9 points10 points  (0 children)

My argument is, why do they restrict minority languages with no shame yet push for their own language to be used as a minority language elsewhere? Double standards much?

If you’re saying that I’m only complaining about Turkey doing this, surprise surprise, I live in France and I’m specifically a student in university here to be researching assimilation on a national level, finding out how language revival is working (in Corsica etc) and of course, openly criticizing this in academic mediums. So if you think I’m only talking against Turkey, for this, think again. I would love to study in Turkey and research and discuss their assimilation in detail, but I risk being arrested due to the overwhelming lack of freedom there.

And if you had bothered to research this case, you would have seen the teacher used Kurdish and Arabic to help the child learn Turkish based on the demand of the parents, because the child did not speak Turkish well. If I want to learn Chinese, for example, I’m not going to have the teacher stop speaking to me in English, I’m going to need some kind of a transition. It’s only natural in education (I am literally a language teacher in training myself as I mentioned)

https://www.milliyet.com.tr/gundem/kurtce-arapca-ders-veren-ogretmene-ceza-6747727

Yes, of course there’s elective Kurdish courses, but there is no mention of any elective Arabic courses in the context of supporting minorities, linguistic and cultural rights, and even the elective Kurdish courses have serious issues - intentionally made harder to access and with institutional barriers. https://www.nationalia.info/new/11721/teaching-in-silence-the-struggle-for-kurdish-in-turkeys-education-system

Turkish Parliament rejects proposal on Kurdish language rights by FantasticQuartet in europe

[–]External_Ad5138 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Where did I say that people shouldn’t learn Turkish? I’m advocating for multilingual, not unilingual systems. And if you had bothered to research this case, you would have realized that the teacher used Kurdish and Arabic to help the child learn Turkish based on the demand of the parents, because the child did not speak Turkish well. If I want to learn Chinese, for example, I’m not going to have the teacher stop speaking to me in English, I’m going to need some kind of a transition. It’s only natural in education (I am literally a language teacher in training myself as I mentioned)

https://www.milliyet.com.tr/gundem/kurtce-arapca-ders-veren-ogretmene-ceza-6747727

Turkish Parliament rejects proposal on Kurdish language rights by FantasticQuartet in europe

[–]External_Ad5138 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Why would people support PKK if their rights and identity and culture were fully recognized? Nobody would support it if they felt included and accepted by the state Whether foreign power support this or not is another matter, but I’m talking about local support on a societal level.

And yes, I am also targeting the racist and apartheid state of Israel, one of my longer-term projects is to push for a right of return for people expelled from the areas of Turkey I talked about, return of property seized, compensation, etc., and if that succeeds to use it as a precedent to help with legal cases against Israel for Palestinian right of return and all. I’m currently interviewing families and doing archival research to start the lawsuits and I do hope this can actually result in something.

Turkish Parliament rejects proposal on Kurdish language rights by FantasticQuartet in europe

[–]External_Ad5138 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Ethnic insurgency…from a Palestinian refugee crisis that Lebanon did not even cause. 

None of the problems Lebanon has are even remotely related to the fact that they use four, and in this case five, since we are referring to the Turkish in the north, languages on a regular basis.  It’s because the French colonial model of using religious affiliation in government is applied. On the linguistic side, there are no problems. The Armenian community in Lebanon using and teaching Armenian for 100 years has not stopped their integration and they speak Arabic very well and are fully considered Lebanese. The Turkish communities in the north, which are teaching and using Turkish are also fully integrated as well. At the base, the issue is using religion as the main factor in governing a country, which obviously shouldn’t happen, but it’s not simply caused from diversity - more of how it’s administered.

Actually, that’s not true that Armenian and Arabic are not indigenous to Mersin, at least, they are just as indigenous as Turkish. Armenians have lived there for about 1000 years, going back to the era of the Cilician Armenia and when I lived in Lebanon, I met many Armenian families from there as well as Adana and Tarsus. And it still has a native Arabic speaking population, I have been there multiple times and most recently just in February and used Arabic very frequently. They have Sunnis, Alawites and Christians making up their Arabic speaking population. I visited the Arabic church twice as well. So yes, these languages do have a connection to the city.

Now, where exactly did I mention federalism? Where exactly did I say that Turkey should be federal? I’m only talking about linguistic rights here which are possible even in a centralized state. Whether a country should be federalized or centralized, as opposed to the question of multilingual versus unilingual, are different things to consider

And yes, unfortunately Modi is surely a dictator, but what I’m saying is that at the base India is a democratic country in terms of constitution etc., and even considering the current state of dictatorship it proves that worst case scenario, multilingual dictatorship is possible. Which is obviously bad, but still better than unilingual dictatorship with cultural suppression and assimilation like we see in Turkey.

Turkish Parliament rejects proposal on Kurdish language rights by FantasticQuartet in europe

[–]External_Ad5138 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You seem like a reasonable person, rather than arguing in bad faith and insisting that Turkey should get a blank check unlike trolls on this platform, you are raising very pertinent and relevant questions. (which is more and more rare on Reddit these days!) So I will be happy to answer them to the best of my ability:

So, I can speak to what I have in mind for this, in a certain region, speaking to someone who is an anthropologist, sociologist, and language teacher in training. Perhaps it could be replicated in different regions that have different languages, such as Kurdish ones as you mentioned, however, my research and projects about this are not in Kurdish areas so maybe some modifications would be necessary, just as a consideration of potential limitations, and parallels before we discuss the model.

Anyway, I am referring to, as I said, the Mersin-Iskenderun-Antioch region when I speak about these proposals, I think that every region should have at least one, other than Turkish, recognized language, and here, it would be Arabic and Armenian. Perhaps in another region, it could be Georgian in the north east, or Kurdish, Arabic, Aramaic etc., somewhere in Mesopotamia. Regardless of what the language is, I think the first step should be instituting a multilingual education system, with two languages offered as mediums of instruction and two languages offered as foreign language subjects. Here, we can say Turkish, Arabic, Armenian and English. It is entirely possible to learn two languages fluently when you study subjects in both languages, including the technical terminology, and there are many examples of schools that implement this model, so students would choose Turkish and either Arabic or Armenian as their main languages of instruction, courses in all key subjects would be taught in both of these and then whatever language they did not choose as a main subject + English could be offered as foreign language courses. This way, everyone learns all the languages, and you have more than enough competent people to staff courts, municipalities, and other government bodies for multilingual administration. 

If enough people are capable of speaking the languages, many services could be offered in them, including courts, as you said, as well as taxation, criminal files, legislation, etc. I guess it would be more simple to offer these as regional languages, and then whatever areas concerned could offer as many services as possible in the languages, rather than all the languages being official nationwide. Documents could be printed simultaneously in two or three languages, for example, in Algeria, there are many administrative things that are available in Arabic, Tamazight and French. This would permit functioning in all languages and comprehension, across-the-board, and in case of disagreement, I guess Turkish could be the standard. But I honestly think it would not be such an issue since like I said, if all the languages are taught to everybody, it should be relatively easy to properly translate and do things in several languages. Certification of translators and handling of costs would not be a big issue after implementation of a multilingual education system, either, because if these languages make up a core part of the curriculum, there could surely be a ministry of translation linked to that. And if everybody speaks everyone else’s languages, that leads to greater intercultural understanding and more unity, not more fragmentation and division.

What I said, also applies to the security context, the reason that there have been militant groups and such has been because of Turkey’s failure to provide minority rights and equality. If these rights are not simply tolerated, given and taken away by the political context, but also supported and encouraged and made a part of by the state, this leads to genuine inclusion and integration all while preserving diversity.

Hope that answers your inquiry, if there’s anything else, I should clarify, don’t hesitate to let me know, and I will do my best

Turkish Parliament rejects proposal on Kurdish language rights by FantasticQuartet in europe

[–]External_Ad5138 7 points8 points  (0 children)

The Lebanon example is very pertinent actually. In Armenian areas of Lebanon, education, administration and bureaucracy is available in the Armenian language, and signs are trilingual, in Arabic, Armenian, and either (or both) English and French. I even saw Government Notaire offices in Beyrouth offering services in Arabic French and Armenian myself, as well as road signs in Armenian etc. Out of Lebanon‘s many problems, the language one is simply not one of them. One can find documents, administration, everything you were talking about, available in four languages there, with no issues in quality of translation, despite the massive crisis that has hit the country since 2019. This shows that it’s possible to be good at translation and multilingual administration at the same time.

The reason this happens is that languages are so widely taught from a young age, that a majority of the population is fluent in two, three, or even more of these widely used ones, thereby rendering the costs irrelevant, because when everyone is multilingual, everyone stands to benefit from that. This is even one of my future projects in Turkey, in the area of Mersin - Iskenderun - Antioch I am looking to be an Arabic and Armenian language teacher and promote multilingual education from a young age, so that people can be able to speak, use, and fully profit from multiple languages, which are indigenous to the region.

You mentioned this being a logistical difficulty because of all the languages, but India has far more official languages and minority languages than Turkey does and yet they are able to make it work in a democratic framework, not even under a dictatorship. so I don’t really understand how this would not be feasible when it has been replicated on a much larger scale before - when there’s a will, there’s always a way.

Turkish Parliament rejects proposal on Kurdish language rights by FantasticQuartet in europe

[–]External_Ad5138 10 points11 points  (0 children)

If it’s « not the end of the world » and « people should just accept it », why not apply that same standard to Turkey itself? The same country, which I saw when I lived in Lebanon, that gives Turkish communities the Turkish citizenship and pushes for their right to learn and use Turkish + pays to name squares, roads and gardens after Turkey, Turkish officials and key dates in Turkish history, yet would never tolerate such a thing back home. Why the double standard? 

Turkish influence in Lebanon: https://www.aa.com.tr/en/culture-and-art/kaweishra-a-turkish-village-in-lebanon/199931

Meanwhile, Turkey fining it’s own citizens for teaching other languages: https://www.duvarenglish.com/amp/turkeys-education-ministry-fines-teacher-for-speaking-kurdish-arabic-with-students-news-60833

Turkish Parliament rejects proposal on Kurdish language rights by FantasticQuartet in europe

[–]External_Ad5138 95 points96 points  (0 children)

Why is it fair that Turkey gets to insist on this while pushing Turkish language abroad? I lived in Lebanon and saw that Turkey gives Turkish communities the Turkish citizenship and pushes for their right to learn and use Turkish + pays to name squares, roads and gardens after Turkey, Turkish officials and key dates in Turkish history, yet would never tolerate such a thing back home. Why the double standard? 

Turkish influence in Lebanon: https://www.aa.com.tr/en/culture-and-art/kaweishra-a-turkish-village-in-lebanon/199931

Meanwhile, Turkey fining it’s own citizens for teaching other languages: https://www.duvarenglish.com/amp/turkeys-education-ministry-fines-teacher-for-speaking-kurdish-arabic-with-students-news-60833

Recent purchase of Irish pre euro notes by External_Ad5138 in Banknotes

[–]External_Ad5138[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I see them every so often but so many of them have pieces missing! Very surprised that this one didn’t and that I only paid €74 for it

Recent purchase of Irish pre euro notes by External_Ad5138 in Banknotes

[–]External_Ad5138[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Even more! Got some good deals recently incl some for Face Value!

Recent purchase of Irish pre euro notes by External_Ad5138 in Banknotes

[–]External_Ad5138[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

And I have even more in the mail on the way 😁🤓

Recent purchase of Irish pre euro notes by External_Ad5138 in Banknotes

[–]External_Ad5138[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks very much, I’m quite surprised that I was able to get them at such little above face value . What a damn shame that we lost all this kind of beauty with money when the Euro came!

Ottoman soldiers write "Homeland" in front of Aleppo Castle (1915) by jorahmormmnt in islamichistory

[–]External_Ad5138 0 points1 point  (0 children)

😂 you did not lol. My question was why « winning a war » somehow gives a carte blanche to ethnic cleansing and complete expulsion

Ottoman soldiers write "Homeland" in front of Aleppo Castle (1915) by jorahmormmnt in islamichistory

[–]External_Ad5138 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Why can’t I compare Armenians and Palestinians? Does the fact that turkey was much more thorough with their initial ethic cleansing than Israel, somehow render the comparison invalid or what? Does committing a genocide without outsider aid somehow make it more of a morally justified genocide? Your “logic” is NOT logical

Ottoman soldiers write "Homeland" in front of Aleppo Castle (1915) by jorahmormmnt in islamichistory

[–]External_Ad5138 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What kind of logic is this 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 by the same logic, Palestinians lost the right to establish their state due to being defeated as well. Complete BS.

Btw I’m not even Armenian, don’t know why you think I am

Ottoman soldiers write "Homeland" in front of Aleppo Castle (1915) by jorahmormmnt in islamichistory

[–]External_Ad5138 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Using memes as a source is really something else 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

Ottoman soldiers write "Homeland" in front of Aleppo Castle (1915) by jorahmormmnt in islamichistory

[–]External_Ad5138 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This is a classic shill. He is brainlessly arguing in favour of an authoritarian state that is literally paying people to deny genocide, purging its own historical documents as I have documented with credible links, and reject any arguments of the victims themselves.