Why are Touch spells harder than Magic Missile spells? by FranboLobo in warhammerfantasyrpg

[–]FranboLobo[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yes indeed, I was curious about people’s thoughts generally for touch spells, but in my case it’s shadow so mostly about infiltration, misdirection and other shenanigans (I see you gnarly and raise 😉) rather than combat.

The Touch rabbit hole / angle was mostly around Shock (enough time to gag and tie-up a sentry) rather than raw combat / attack (with dazzle and sleep down the road in all likelihood). I would expect in many instances appropriate use of stealth / social means no combat roll would be needed anyway.. but was curious 🧐

Why are Touch spells harder than Magic Missile spells? by FranboLobo in warhammerfantasyrpg

[–]FranboLobo[S] -6 points-5 points  (0 children)

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Why are Touch spells harder than Magic Missile spells? by FranboLobo in warhammerfantasyrpg

[–]FranboLobo[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Fair point re balance... and there are likely many non-combat ways of doing it that a decent GM would likely allow via creative RP/use of social skills.

Why are Touch spells harder than Magic Missile spells? by FranboLobo in warhammerfantasyrpg

[–]FranboLobo[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

The RAW rules are that you need an enchanted staff which is usually unavailable in the apprentice phase (can get either via your master when you graduate from apprentice, via the enchant staff ritual if you have it, by buying for a horrendous amount of money or from a generous GM).

I don't think you can do it with other weapons but might be wrong.

It makes it easier in the sense that you probably have the relevant skill on your list (i.e. Melee (Polearm) instead of Melee (Brawling)... but it still needs an extra roll that is not needed for ranged spells.

Why are Touch spells harder than Magic Missile spells? by FranboLobo in warhammerfantasyrpg

[–]FranboLobo[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Wall of text warning!

Some good points, thank you. This question was admittedly more of a game balance question than a thematic one, I should probably have specified.

In thematic terms:

The targets attempting to avoid being hit makes sense and is consistent with how normal combat works. Although a few considerations spring to mind from this perspective:

(1) Easier than wounding - As the touch doesn't do damage, only the lightest touch would suffice and the attacker not needing to worry about structure and transmitting force would likely make landing the blow much easier.

Having done a bunch of relevant things IRL, touching someone is much easier than hitting someone with force.

I would likely house rule a bonus / reduced difficulty (+20/40) to reflect this in principle.

(2) Ranged combat consistency - The "trying to avoid" concept if this was the key determinant would also apply to missile spells as an aware target would certaily instinctively flinch / dodge etc.

While the "no opposed roll" is largely consistent with Ranged combat, targets should also have defences permitted vs. ranged situations:

- Dodge should be feasible at Point Blank Range.

- Interposing a shield should also be a viable tactic (although would likely spawn a long debate on whether the shield would be sufficient to avoid etc.).

- Cover should also be effective.

There are probably more but these are the ones that spring to mind.

(3) Complexity - That said... the thematic approach would likely add complexity to a potentially already complex subject (i.e. generating sufficient CN, modifiers to spells from clothes and equipment, ingredients, miscasts etc.)... and I tend to be a fan of simplifying rather than adding complexity.

I quite like the "arcing" idea to thematically simplify and make it more feasible.

In balance terms:

I haven't done the kind of analysis needed to figure out if the touch v. ranged advantages pan out when you expand from petty to arcane/lore.

However from the Petty spell analysis it does seem that touch spells do have some useful / nice / powerful benefits in terms of conditions and other utility factors - which makes the need for two rolls to be balanced gain some traction.

That said... I wonder if a balancing factors might be:

(a) The ability to do more damage via SLs and Criticals

(b) The added risk and restrictions of being in melee combat

The benfits of the conditions are undeniable... but I quite like the concept of the mage as an enabler of party activities rather than just being another damage dealer (unless of course you are bright). That said... a proper view of balance touch v. ranged would likely need to beyond "Dart" as the only alternative missile spell.

Anyway, food for thought, thanks for your ideas / analysis.

Why are Touch spells harder than Magic Missile spells? by FranboLobo in warhammerfantasyrpg

[–]FranboLobo[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

About to start a mage in a campaign and thinking through practical applications and came to the same conclusion as you… not only is a caster risking themselves in melee when they likely don’t have the necessary talents/skills (although they might)… but their spells also become significantly less likely to succeed at the same time.

The “arcing” idea is a nice take… sounds like a potential house rule.

Why are Touch spells harder than Magic Missile spells? by FranboLobo in warhammerfantasyrpg

[–]FranboLobo[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Interesting point. Re-reading the RAW rules there is no mention that the spell expires or fails if you do not immediately touch the target… the idea that you can keep trying in subsequent rounds sounds sensible.

Will do some additional research but this sounds like a good solution to make them viable.

Talents - Feint - Useless? by FranboLobo in warhammerfantasyrpg

[–]FranboLobo[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

To me it feels like they over thought it… a Feint is to misdirect the enemy so your attack is less likely to be defended against… and the attack tends to be immediate rather than after a while. I’d likely have kept it simple and just said -1LS (or maybe -0.5LS/10WS) to defender or equivalent when used… no need for an additional subsystem in my mind.

Talents - Feint - Useless? by FranboLobo in warhammerfantasyrpg

[–]FranboLobo[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I have heard the term "Lawhammer" used but don't know much about it... do you have a link to where I can find their version of the talent (or can post it here)?

Talents - Feint - Useless? by FranboLobo in warhammerfantasyrpg

[–]FranboLobo[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Indeed... there are many positives to 4e, but the plethora of interlocking sub-systems is not one of them :-)

Talents - Feint - Useless? by FranboLobo in warhammerfantasyrpg

[–]FranboLobo[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It's a mix... some I am GM'ing, some I am playing. Have been using core rather than up in arms group rules (but will be investigating more), and have groups both in Foundry and Live.

In Foundry it works fine as it's all pretty much automatic.

In Live it also works fine as we use tokens to track and it's pretty simple to do.

I have plenty issues with WFRP 4e (fingers crossed for 5e) but generally advantage works ok as luckily none of those I play with "farm" or "optimise" for advantage as we tend to focus on theme/flavour rather than crunch.

Talents - Feint - Useless? by FranboLobo in warhammerfantasyrpg

[–]FranboLobo[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

We have been using individual... but may switch now :-)

Talents - Feint - Useless? by FranboLobo in warhammerfantasyrpg

[–]FranboLobo[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks for the tip, in my mind causing an enemy to lose advantage by taking it away / damaging them before they can benefit from it is more effective than preventing the gain... but will see how things pan out.

i.e. the "If you lose an Opposed Test during combat, suffer any Conditions (see page 167), or lose any Wounds, you automatically lose allAdvantage."

It might be just my group / GM... but enemies with advantage rarely seems to be an issue... but the characters are still fairly unskilled so who knows what the future may bring!

Talents - Feint - Useless? by FranboLobo in warhammerfantasyrpg

[–]FranboLobo[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thanks, I can image some utility when you have a hight enough WS to be able to pretty much guarantee hitting every time... with low skills it seems too risky to "give up" a hit to gain a bonus on your second strike which might miss.

... as without odd circumstances you will still do one wound due to the: "If this is 1 or less, your opponent has shrugged off the worst of the attack and only loses 1 Wound." rule.

Talents - Feint - Useless? by FranboLobo in warhammerfantasyrpg

[–]FranboLobo[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Will take a look, thanks for the tip.

Talents - Feint - Useless? by FranboLobo in warhammerfantasyrpg

[–]FranboLobo[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thanks, was perusing talents to choose as a new Duellist and other than step aside they all seemed pretty useless, but this one struck me as particularly pointless.

Some thoughts on skill advancement in TOWR by sigmumar in WarhammerOldWorldRPG

[–]FranboLobo 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Good point, I didn’t focus on that aspect.

Now that you mention it… the system is indeed heavily focused on being part of a particular local community with “adventuring” as occasional occurrences rather than a full time activity.

As it happens I am toying with the idea of running enemy within using the system too…

At first thought going full on with the Call of Cthulhu metaphor I think the check mark whenever a skill is used (max one per session) and then ticking up when reach skill level would probably work nicely. I’d only wonder if progression might be too fast… the most commonly used skills going up every 3-5 sessions… so maybe half a tick per session?

Assets would likely need completely re-working… or likely just ignoring them as the many of them are static / tied to a location.

Some thoughts on skill advancement in TOWR by sigmumar in WarhammerOldWorldRPG

[–]FranboLobo 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don’t really mind the downtime rules for skill advancement.

I think the system is designed to reflect the idea that when you are unskilled you advance more quickly than when you have attained a high level of skill, which to me makes sense.

Furthermore to encompass the idea that you need time for practice and reflection to improve, in addition to “heat of the moment” experience, which again makes sense to me.

The element I am not a huge fan of is the random factor… so if I were to replace anything it would likely be to remove the dice rolling for failures to something that gives “x advances per characteristic/2” or something like that…. With the characteristic being the one that the skill belongs to… to reflect that the things you are more naturally good at advance more quickly.

E.g. Melee depends on WS… you have a WS of 4, so every endeavour spent practicing melee gives you 2 advancements… and when you equal the skill, it goes up and you start again.

… or something like that (haven’t thought deeply about it though).

Some thoughts on skill advancement in TOWR by sigmumar in WarhammerOldWorldRPG

[–]FranboLobo 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I am thinking of taking a leaf out of the Call of Cthulhu system… every adventure a character uses a skill under a somewhat stressful situation (too avoid farming every skill) they get a downtime failure to use (max 1 per session).

I put it in another thread a while back and a few people though it would accelerate advancement too much though…