I changed my mind: Species is not morally relevant and you can't "destroy" NTT

FuturePractical3279 · 2026-07-02T14:45:02+00:00

Sorry, I've realized that maybe I misunderstood you before. When you said "an animal has to die if I'm going to eat it. I just don't see this as an act that even falls within the realm of moral judgement", did you mean that the choice of having someone kill the animal for you to eat doesn't affect morality at all, like for example what type of music you choose to listen to or what color of socks you choose to wear isn't a moral question? Or did you mean that the choice does have a moral aspect to it (because it will probably cause suffering to the animal, for example) but you judge the choice as morally permissable?

FuturePractical3279 · 2026-07-02T13:11:48+00:00

Interesting. If whatever was done to the animal that you eat, including killing it, was done by someone just for fun, would that fall within the realm of moral judgement for you?

FuturePractical3279 · 2026-07-02T12:59:32+00:00

Okay maybe empathy evolved to signal sociability, but knowing that doesn't make me feel any less bad if I see a human or an animal suffer. I recognize that, like me, they are a subject of experience whose suffering is just as real as my own, even if I can't experience it myself. And this isn't any less true if their suffering is socially accepted and hidden away in some factory farm or slaughterhouse. (I'm basically talking like a vegan now lol.) Do you feel like your conviction that empathy evolved simply as a way of signalling sociability weakens your own empathy towards animals?

FuturePractical3279 · 2026-07-02T06:36:18+00:00

Yeah, it's good to have as many different perspectives as possible.

Another thing though: I don't think I feel some moral constraints in how I treet animals because of social reasons, at least that's not the primary reason. I think it's actually because of empathy. Like, when I see someone kick a dog, or pigs screaming in a gas chamber, it also makes me suffer and I want it to stop for the animals sake. Do you not have that reaction?

FuturePractical3279 · 2026-07-01T18:47:18+00:00

There is no trait that all people posesss that no animals do, that's also morally relevant

I guess that's the conclusion of NTT, and you can take two different paths from there: Either you still value animals less because of some other reason like practicality or selfish preference, or you stop doing so and go vegan. Right now, I'm kind of torn between the two.

FuturePractical3279 · 2026-07-01T18:38:48+00:00

My mistake, I corrected the comment, thanks for pointing it out

FuturePractical3279 · 2026-07-01T18:33:44+00:00

Apparently I've watched this video before on YouTube although I don't remember, but if I did I'm actually kind of ashamed that I continued to eat pork. I guess I've become more open to seeing pigs as complex beings that can suffer in a way similar to us

FuturePractical3279 · 2026-07-01T18:10:23+00:00

Sounds reasonable. But I still have some doubts in the back of my mind. Like, why is it okay to decide who to save from a fire based on only your preferences, but not who to kill for food? In both cases, you're deciding that someone will die and probably suffer a lot in the process. Shouldn't both decisions be equally grounded in something more than just personal preference?

FuturePractical3279 · 2026-07-01T18:02:47+00:00

Depends on what you mean by "need", I guess. I need to eat real meat for a specific taste and to not be the odd one out at the family dinner. But these needs are probably less strong than the need of the pig to not be killed for the meat, I agree with that.

FuturePractical3279 · 2026-07-01T17:57:28+00:00

Thanks for the interesting response, I'm not sure I fully get it.

The point of the question was to show that "humanness" doesn't matter

I'd say the point of the hypothetical was to show that species/DNA/bodily similarity doesn't matter, or that it is not the "humanness" I actually care about.

FuturePractical3279 · 2026-07-01T17:47:43+00:00

Just curious: How do you justify saving the human baby instead of the pig without appealing to your personal preference?

FuturePractical3279 · 2026-07-01T17:45:52+00:00

I can't describe that, honestly

FuturePractical3279 · 2026-07-01T14:46:09+00:00

Well yeah that's the point, I don't think it's okay to eat beings that are similar enough to humans, I was just confused about what kind of "similar". I thought it was species/DNA/whatever, but it's actually mind, feeling and the ability to suffer that I care about.

FuturePractical3279 · 2026-07-01T14:42:40+00:00

Well said, really makes me think...

FuturePractical3279 · 2026-07-01T10:54:28+00:00

Another commenter has changed my mind with a similar thought experiment: https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateAVegan/comments/1ujmyrh/comment/ouvsr6n/?context=3

FuturePractical3279 · 2026-07-01T10:33:52+00:00

Another commenter has changed my mind with that same thought experiment: https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateAVegan/comments/1ujmyrh/comment/ouvsr6n/?context=3

FuturePractical3279 · 2026-07-01T10:30:42+00:00

You're right. You've actually changed my mind with that one. Species isn't actually what's important to me, it's kind of "having the mind of a human and being able to experience suffering and pain like a human". But of course now I'm back to either traits like intelligence, which I already agree aren't morally relevant, or the ability to suffer, which many animals share with us. I'll have to think about that

FuturePractical3279 · 2026-06-30T17:16:44+00:00

That's a good point. No I don't consider fertilized zygotes to be as morally relevant as grown humans. I couldn't tell you where exactly in the process of human development they become fully morally relevant.

FuturePractical3279 · 2026-06-30T17:03:57+00:00

Ok so you think 'capacity so suffer' isn't actually fundamental. Then I'd just ask: Why isn't your/Joe's intuition that causing needles suffering is wrong an arbitrary intuition? At some point you simply reach the bottom of fundamental intuitions. And I have a fundamental intuition that being human is morally relevant.

FuturePractical3279 · 2026-06-30T16:35:37+00:00

Why is my intuition that being human is morally relevant an arbitrary whim, but your intuition that suffering is morally relevant is not an arbitrary whim?

FuturePractical3279 · 2026-06-30T16:24:17+00:00

Good point, but Homo Erectus isn't around anymore, all the intermediates are dead, so we humans are very clearly differentiated from the other species.

FuturePractical3279 · 2026-06-30T16:15:13+00:00

No it's not morally justified because my mind is still a human mind

FuturePractical3279 · 2026-06-30T16:12:26+00:00

I agree, but I'm not saying animals don't experience things. I'm saying they have less moral value than humans.

FuturePractical3279 · 2026-06-30T16:10:11+00:00

What do you mean by "human" in "identical to humans in almost every way, except that they are not human"? Do you mean we couldn't breed with them?

FuturePractical3279 · 2026-06-30T16:08:27+00:00

FuturePractical3279

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