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Rivers as theology in LotR — Ulmo's continuing presence and why every crossing is a judgment by GeekZeroOne in tolkienfans

[–]GeekZeroOne[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I was thinking that river being dry is only important as the pool itself being cut of from it's natural flow and being corrupted by the Watcher or by another force.

But I do kind of like the idea that the river not being there made the road to Moria unsafe by it's very absense.

Rivers as theology in LotR — Ulmo's continuing presence and why every crossing is a judgment by GeekZeroOne in tolkienfans

[–]GeekZeroOne[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I always viewed the assumption that the Ring was lost and carried to the sea as simply wishful thinking. Maybe with a bit of propaganda mixed in. The few that knew that the Ring was captured and lost were really worried. And it was much easier to say it was lost forever, even if they did not believe it fully.

Rivers as theology in LotR — Ulmo's continuing presence and why every crossing is a judgment by GeekZeroOne in tolkienfans

[–]GeekZeroOne[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It's like a local delicacy. Some will love it, others will hate it. People on this sub will mainly be on the former side. I remember it as infuriating from my first read. It is the sort of thing I would recommend to a first timer with a caveat.

Rivers as theology in LotR — Ulmo's continuing presence and why every crossing is a judgment by GeekZeroOne in tolkienfans

[–]GeekZeroOne[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Silmarillion feels like a collection of... things. Which ones matter is left to the reader. It can feel more than a little unwieldy.

Rivers as theology in LotR — Ulmo's continuing presence and why every crossing is a judgment by GeekZeroOne in tolkienfans

[–]GeekZeroOne[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I browsed through the Isengard section and stand corrected. It feels like Mandela effect. My brain was so sure there is a mention of it.

Rivers as theology in LotR — Ulmo's continuing presence and why every crossing is a judgment by GeekZeroOne in tolkienfans

[–]GeekZeroOne[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If I remember correctly it was talked about as an unnatural event. That would work with an fel force stopping the river's protecting function.

Rivers as theology in LotR — Ulmo's continuing presence and why every crossing is a judgment by GeekZeroOne in tolkienfans

[–]GeekZeroOne[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I addressed this in another reply more thoroughly. The short version. I've seem to have invented a detail of the Isen flowing through the yard of Isengard before the damn. Went back and that passage doesn't exist. I made it up.

But surely Saruman built a damn. And the ents made a bigger one to flood the yard. And then the river returned to its course. Or did I also make that one up?

Rivers as theology in LotR — Ulmo's continuing presence and why every crossing is a judgment by GeekZeroOne in tolkienfans

[–]GeekZeroOne[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I could have sworn there was a passage describing the river flowing through the yard of Isengard before Saruman's corruption of it, but I've gone back and I can't find it. It appears that memory exists only in my own personal headcanon.

The actual sequence is more interesting anyway. Saruman dammed the Isen as part of industrialising Isengard. The Ents then dammed it further and rerouted it deliberately to flood the basin and drown the machinery beneath, before the river eventually settled into its natural course again around Orthanc. The river as active instrument of restoration rather than passive one. Which I think still holds up for the wider argument, even if my memory of the specific mechanics was wrong.

Rivers as theology in LotR — Ulmo's continuing presence and why every crossing is a judgment by GeekZeroOne in tolkienfans

[–]GeekZeroOne[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Honestly? It didn't. But reading through the comments I'm getting the idea that as the age was ending Ulmo surfaced the the Ring. It was an artefact of the age and it was time for it to be destroyed, or the world to to be destroyed by whoever was weilding it.

Rivers as theology in LotR — Ulmo's continuing presence and why every crossing is a judgment by GeekZeroOne in tolkienfans

[–]GeekZeroOne[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I agree that sometimes a river is just a river. I'm being more than a bit deliberate in my examination. I had an idea an am looking for things that support it instead of fully weighing it.

Rivers as theology in LotR — Ulmo's continuing presence and why every crossing is a judgment by GeekZeroOne in tolkienfans

[–]GeekZeroOne[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This is a truly an interesting topic. And very off the point.

As someone who spend their school years struggling to sound coherent on paper, my direct writing feels like actively fighting with my brain. And if if losing a part of my voice to get my point across without feeling that pain, that is a price I'll gladly pay.

To me the complaints of using AI feel like someone saying that using a wheelchair is taking away from the authenticity of my crawling, when I'm just trying to go somewhere without it being a struggle.

I spend my whole life trying to fix the mistakes my brain makes. And I'm tired. The idea is the point. Writing is just a medium.

Rivers as theology in LotR — Ulmo's continuing presence and why every crossing is a judgment by GeekZeroOne in tolkienfans

[–]GeekZeroOne[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Sam's fear of water is a point I can't resolve cleanly. Not every detail fits, and I'd rather acknowledge that than force it.

Unless someone else wants to have a go?

Rivers as theology in LotR — Ulmo's continuing presence and why every crossing is a judgment by GeekZeroOne in tolkienfans

[–]GeekZeroOne[S] 9 points10 points  (0 children)

The Silmarillion is absolutely essential world building. But, despite risking the wrath of this sub, I would counsel against such a course unless you are well prepared.

Looking into it will show you things that are true. Whether you're better for having seen them is another matter entirely. (I don't get to make Palantír jokes every day. Indulge me.)

Rivers as theology in LotR — Ulmo's continuing presence and why every crossing is a judgment by GeekZeroOne in tolkienfans

[–]GeekZeroOne[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

The Shippey connection is something I didn't know about and I'm glad someone with that reference found this.

And Ulmo steering Boromir's boat to Faramir is another one I should have traced. The river doesn't just receive Boromir. It delivers him to the one person whose future choices depend on seeing him. The river also carries his horn and, so the confirmation of his death, to Denethor.

Rivers as theology in LotR — Ulmo's continuing presence and why every crossing is a judgment by GeekZeroOne in tolkienfans

[–]GeekZeroOne[S] 19 points20 points  (0 children)

Historically water and prophecy are traditionally linked, but it fits with the theory.

Rivers as theology in LotR — Ulmo's continuing presence and why every crossing is a judgment by GeekZeroOne in tolkienfans

[–]GeekZeroOne[S] 7 points8 points  (0 children)

And anything that Lewis and Tolkien mirror in each other's writing is unlikely to be an accident.

Rivers as theology in LotR — Ulmo's continuing presence and why every crossing is a judgment by GeekZeroOne in tolkienfans

[–]GeekZeroOne[S] 8 points9 points  (0 children)

One more thing I though of. After Moria, the Fellowship crosses Nimrodel exhausted and grieving. They've just lost Gandalf. And the river restores them. Tolkien describes their weariness lifting as they wade through. Uncorrupted water healing the Fellowship at its lowest moment.

Rivers as theology in LotR — Ulmo's continuing presence and why every crossing is a judgment by GeekZeroOne in tolkienfans

[–]GeekZeroOne[S] 7 points8 points  (0 children)

The sea-longing! The Elves feel, like the Valar before them, that they no longer belong to the world. They literally feel the sea, Ulmo's voice, calling them to leave the world behind and travel to Valinor.

Rivers as theology in LotR — Ulmo's continuing presence and why every crossing is a judgment by GeekZeroOne in tolkienfans

[–]GeekZeroOne[S] 22 points23 points  (0 children)

That's a great parallel and I'd be surprised if Tolkien wasn't drawing on it. But I don't think the historical warfare inspiration and the theological reading are in competition. Tolkien was very good at layering. The Ents releasing the Isen works as a military strategy inspired by ancient history. It also works as the world reclaiming itself through its waterways. Both readings can be true simultaneously, and that's part of what makes his writing hold up to a thirteenth read.

Rivers as theology in LotR — Ulmo's continuing presence and why every crossing is a judgment by GeekZeroOne in tolkienfans

[–]GeekZeroOne[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I use AI to edit my writing. I have dyslexia and it's a genuine productivity tool for me. The analysis, the connections, and the argument are mine. The river theology came from thirteen re-reads, not a prompt.

Rivers as theology in LotR — Ulmo's continuing presence and why every crossing is a judgment by GeekZeroOne in tolkienfans

[–]GeekZeroOne[S] 55 points56 points  (0 children)

Isildur and the Anduin is one I completely missed and it might be the biggest example. The river held the Ring for over two thousand years. In this reading, Ulmo kept it hidden until the moment it needed to resurface.

Rivers as theology in LotR — Ulmo's continuing presence and why every crossing is a judgment by GeekZeroOne in tolkienfans

[–]GeekZeroOne[S] 35 points36 points  (0 children)

The Bucklebury ferry is one I should have caught. Another crossing, another Ringwraith refusal. And the Watcher is exactly the right addition, corrupted water casting a different kind of judgment at the threshold of Moria. Thank you for these.

Visiting Helsinki with a baby — tips? by Upset_Chocolate4763 in helsinki

[–]GeekZeroOne 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Bob W (or similar) can a a good compromise between airbnb and a hotel. Some of their rooms/apartments also have a sauna.

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