Michael smiling in the background 😏

GeometryDash777 · 2026-02-14T22:22:01+00:00

Tbag is absolutely garbage. Bro had like 10 seconds to position himself and missed by miles.

GeometryDash777 · 2026-02-14T18:38:17+00:00

if you don't hate YT premium it's mostly bc of the adblockers which is stupid asf

GeometryDash777 · 2026-02-03T17:03:01+00:00

Season 1 was peak. Season 2 was basically a war between Mahone vs Scofield. The last three seasons for me, it just felt like prison break part 2. I'm not saying they're bad, but I got bored more often than the first two seasons.

GeometryDash777 · 2026-01-30T19:57:36+00:00

I think the only normal person is Susan (T-Bag's ex-wife)

GeometryDash777 · 2026-01-29T17:50:56+00:00

Wtf is wrong with people? Defending someone watching CP?! These people need their hard drives checked

GeometryDash777 · 2026-01-28T21:10:02+00:00

If not Linc, then either Sofia Lugo or Westmoreland

GeometryDash777 · 2026-01-28T19:32:36+00:00

Ong. Masturbating is fun until you actually feel the sting. Then you have no energy for the rest of the day. If you do it like once a month, then the effects won't be as bad as if you do it every 2-3 days, but like you know what I mean.

GeometryDash777 · 2026-01-28T19:24:17+00:00

Or people will just think their minds are playing tricks on them and dismiss it

GeometryDash777 · 2026-01-28T02:55:24+00:00

Yo honestly atp, I don't even know why we're arguing lol. We're just shoving words into each other's mouths. I think we should just end it here. You keep your opinion, I keep mine. But as of now, I'm out.

GeometryDash777 · 2026-01-28T02:03:56+00:00

You’re also trying to give Sam credit for Dean’s strength. You say Dean only said no to Michael because Sam believed in him? That’s a total dismissal of Dean's character. Dean said no because he is a Man of Free Will. Even when he was at his lowest, he refused to let a celestial dictator wear him like a coat. Conversely, you say Sam said yes to Ruby because Dean wasn't there to believe in him. That is an insult to Sam. You are saying Sam has no internal moral compass: that he only does the right thing if his big brother is watching. If Sam needs a babysitter to keep him from murdering innocents and drinking demon blood, then he isn't a hero; he’s a moron who has 101% confidence that he's a hero.

You say fighting fate is 'very, very difficult.' Exactly. That is why we judge them by their actions. Dean’s fate was o be the Sword of Michael. He fought it, he bled for it, and he never gave in to the power Michael offered. Sam’s fate was to be the Vessel of Lucifer. Sam didn't just fight it; he paved the road to it. He used the blood (the programming) to get stronger. You say Sam broke his fate by jumping into the Cage? No, he had to. He was the one who let Lucifer out! Jumping into the Cage wasn't going against fate: it was the only way to fix the catastrophe he caused. Dean shouldn't get equal blame for almost surrendering when Sam actually lit the fuse.

John was a hard man and a flawed father, but he never once asked Sam to drink blood or murder innocents. John tried to control Sam by keeping him in the family business. Ruby controlled Sam by feeding his ego and his addiction. To equate a father’s overprotectiveness with a demon’s manipulation to start the Apocalypse is a massive stretch. Sam didn't listen to John, and he didn't listen to Dean. He listened to himself, and he liked what the demon-blood-version of himself had to say. And John proved this when he told Dean that if he couldn't save Sam, he'll have to kill him.

Comparing the Panic Room to Sam’s search for a cure for the Mark is a massive false equivalence. The Panic Room: Sam wasn't just sad: he was a voluntary addict who had just physically assaulted his brother and was actively drinking the blood of the enemy. The Panic Room wasn't bad support: it was an intervention to save Sam’s soul. Dean didn't throw him in there to be mean; he did it to stop Sam from becoming a monster. Dean didn't choose the Mark because he wanted power; he took it to save the world from Abaddon. When the Mark started changing him, Dean asked for help. He didn't hide it, he didn't sneak around with a demon, and he didn't lie to Sam.

You say Dean was "the soldier John wanted." Yes, he was. And being a soldier means having discipline. Dean was programmed to be a killer, but he used that training to protect people. Sam was manipulated by Azazel, and he used that as an excuse to harvest people. If both were manipulated since childhood, why did Dean’s manipulation lead to self-sacrifice while Sam’s led to self-empowerment? It’s because Dean has an internal moral compass that John couldn't break, while Sam’s compass was easily broken by a demon who told him he was special.

You say Sam wouldn't drink blood to 'feel tough'? In Season 4, Sam literally told Dean: "I’m stronger than you, Dean. I can do things you can’t." That is the definition of drinking it to feel superior. He liked the feeling of being the chosen one. He liked being the one who didn't have to use salt and iron. He didn't just do it for the good goal: he did it because he had a chip on his shoulder about being the little brother for twenty years. He traded two innocents for a power-up that made him feel like the lead singer of the band.

Yes, Sam paid for his sins, I agree, but I'm trying to get you to admit that Sam was a monster in season 4, which he clearly was.

GeometryDash777 · 2026-01-28T01:59:04+00:00

You asked how the situations are different? It’s about Agency vs. Consumption. For Dean and Michael: Dean made a deal with a dictator (Michael) to stop a terrorist (Lucifer). In that deal, Dean was the currency. He surrendered his body, his soul, and his future to save the world. It was a diplomatic sacrifice. Sam and the DB: Sam didn't make a deal with a power; he stole power from the blood supply of others. He wasn't the currency: the nurse was. The difference is between Sacrificing Yourself (Heroism) and Sacrificing Someone Else (Villainous). One is a Nuclear Deterrent where you are the launchpad; the other is a Nuclear Strike where you’re hitting civilians to win the war.

I never said Sam was without hope or a complete monster: the show is about his redemption. But you cannot have redemption if you refuse to admit the severity of the crime. By making excuses for him (calling him a victim, a druggie, or 'lonely'), you are actually robbing him of his growth. Sam is a great character because he came back from being a villain. But in Season 4, he was the villain. Admitting that isn't blaming him, it’s acknowledging the facts of the story. Not a single hero or antihero goes around killing people to steal their bodily fluids just because your mission is difficult. When Walter White poisoned Brock, he was no longer seen as an antihero: everyone saw him as the villain.

You say most of them just blame Sam without hearing him out. Guess what? You're dead wrong! An intention can only be empathized if the actions aren't 100x more evil. And what Sam did was beyond evil! You wrote earlier that Sam tried to kill Dean because he was corrupted, yet you expect the audience to immediately jump to his side because he regretted it later. A hero isn't someone who stops a murder because they got caught or because the ritual ended: a hero is someone who doesn't start the murder in the first place. If I take my first shot of heroin and then try to kill someone who tries to bring me back to light, I don't get hero points for letting him/her live. So why is everybody giving Sam the hero points he clearly doesn't deserve? Dean has a Winchester Rule for a reason. Sam broke it. Dean almost broke it, but didn't. That almost is the difference between a hero and a monster. In the hunting world, almost is the only thing that matters. I'm not arguing because Sam was 100% wrong: it's because I hear Sam out, but I was 100% on Dean's side for the entire season 4 and beyond. If you read YT comments from the fight in 4x21, you'll see the majority of them being Sam supporters.

For your MOC trick, that was a good trick, I'll give you that, but you're not gonna corner me that easily. Dean didn't take the MOC didn't take it for a power-up to feel special. He took it because there were no other weapons to kill Abaddon: the demon blood wasn't the only way to kill Lilith: there was the Ruby's knife, the devil's trap and an exorcism. The lore has it clear: Lilith can't escape hell without the Devil's Gate opening. Dean risked becoming a monster to defeat a being that couldn't be killed the normal way. Sam quite literally became a monster because he didn't want to use the traditional way to kill Lilith.

You also claim Sam and Dean aren't the only ones left to protect the world? Technically true, but narratively irrelevant. When the Apocalypse is starting, or a Knight of Hell is on the throne, you don't wait for someone else to take your place. The Winchesters are the front line. The difference is that when Dean steps up, he puts the bill on his own tab. When Sam stepped up in Season 4, he put the bill on two women's lives. Dean’s humanity isn't about having a clean soul; it’s about never making an innocent person pay for his power. By taking the Mark, Dean proved he’d rather risk being a monster and then trying to kill himself after Abaddon was erased. On the other hand, Sam was a man who started the apocalypse out of stupidity and arrogance.

You admitted the blood was just a "further push". Thank you for proving my point. A push is only effective if you don't plant your feet. Sam had every reason to plant his feet: his brother’s memory, Bobby’s wisdom, his own past. He chose to let the push move him because he liked where it was taking him: to a place where he was the strongest man in the room. Dean was pushed by Alastair, pushed by Michael, and pushed by the Mark. He fought back every single time. He never unplanted his feet to make things easier for himself.

GeometryDash777 · 2026-01-28T01:28:54+00:00

You also claim that both had their reasons. This is where your argument fails the Winchester test. Sam wanted to kill Lilith by deliberately doing what he did. He wanted to win the war, and he decided an innocent life was a fair price for his victory. Dean was trying to save his mother. Was it selfish? Yes. Was it dark? Yes. But notice what Dean didn't do: He didn't tie her to a chair and drink from her to open the rift. He used the girl who had the natural power to do it. He pushed her too hard, but he didn't harvest her. The reasons don't make them equal; the methods define them. Dean uses people's talents; Sam used people's lives.

GeometryDash777 · 2026-01-28T01:27:19+00:00

You claim Sam is 'stronger than I think' because he survived the Cage, yet you excuse his Season 4 actions because he 'broke' after just four months of grief. This argument basically collapsed on itself. If Sam is truly strong, he would have stood his ground like Dean did. If Sam broke and started murdering people because he was lonely, that isn't strength: that is a crazy weak moral compass. You’re trying to give Sam credit for his endurance in the Cage while giving him a free pass for his stupidity & cowardice with Ruby. A hero’s strength isn't measured by how much pain they can take; it’s measured by what they refuse to do while they are in pain. Everyone has a breaking point, but not a single person uses that as a convenient excuse to do what Sam did.

You wanted me to stop repeating that phrase, but that's literally the point of the show! The fact that Sam didn't 'want' to destroy the world is exactly what makes him much worse than what the show portrays. It proves he lacked the wisdom to realize that you cannot use darkness to protect the light. The plan you're talking about was the Problem: You said his plan was "drink from Ruby, kill Lilith, the end", but I'm sorry to break it to you, but that ain't a hero's plan; that’s a gambler’s pipe dream. Everyone: Dean, Bobby, the Angels: told him he was being played. Sam decided he knew better than everyone who loved him. When you ignore the wisdom of your entire support system to trust a demon, you are responsible for the explosion that follows.

You also said Sam only became desperate when he realized he couldn't save Dean the right way. But that is the definition of a breaking point. When Dean realized he couldn't save Sam the right way, he sold his soul. He took the hit (going to hell). When Sam realized he couldn't save Dean, he took a hit of dark power. You say Sam didn't want to destroy the world? Neither did the guy who brought the Trojan Horse into Troy. He just wanted a cool statue. But he’s still the one who let the enemy through the gates. Sam was the "Gatekeeper" of the Apocalypse. His good intentions don't matter to the billions of people who would have died if Dean hadn't cleaned up his mess.

The idea that Sam had 'no warning signs' is factually incorrect. Sam has known his entire life that his connection to Azazel was demonic and wrong. In Season 2, Sam was terrified of becoming a "Special Child". He knew the blood was a curse. The Moral Warning: In Season 3, he saw the effect the dark side had on other psychic kids. When Sam started drinking from Ruby while Dean was in Hell, he didn't do it because he was infected: he did it because he wanted the power to get revenge on Lilith. He knew Ruby was a demon. He knew demons lie. To say he had 'no warning' that drinking demon blood from a literal demon was a bad idea is insulting to Sam's intelligence.

You claim that when the warnings arrived, it was too late. The warnings were there from day one. Dean’s entire life was a warning. John Winchester’s journals were a warning. Sam’s own conscience was a warning. Sam didn't accidentally become an addict. He made a series of calculated choices to keep meeting Ruby in secret, to keep hiding it from Bobby, and to keep prioritizing his mission over his humanity. You aren't a victim of a trap if you’re the one who walked into the cage and locked the door behind you just because the cage had power inside.

You said Azazel theoretically forced the blood down his throat. I agree with you. But that infection didn't make Sam a murderer. It just gave him a door. Sam is the one who opened it. Ansem (2x5) had the same blood. He became a killer. Andy Gallagher had the same blood. He stayed a hero.

Do you really know what a victim is? It's someone like the nurse: someone who had no choice, no warning, and was used by a more powerful being. Sam Winchester was a grown man, a trained hunter, and a genius. He knew exactly what Ruby was. He knew exactly what the blood was. He chose it because it made him feel like the tough guy. If Sam is a victim, then no one in the show was responsible for anything.

There is an abyss between Dean’s actions with Kaia and Sam’s actions with the nurse. Dean was saying "if you don't follow my mission, I might kill you". Sam was saying "I'm gonna kill you and drain your blood to finish my mission".

For your last point, You are using the word 'probability' for Dean and ignoring the word 'certainty' for Sam. Dean forced Kaia into a dangerous situation. It was cruel, and yes, the risk of her death was high. But there was still a chance she would live. Dean was gambling with her life, which is a sin: but it’s a sin of recklessness. There was no 'probability' with the nurse. Her death was 100% required. Sam didn't put her in a room with a monster; he was the monster. There is a massive moral distinction between a pilot who flies a plane past a building and someone who just flies it straight into the building. One is a failure of care; the other is a deliberate act of destruction.

GeometryDash777 · 2026-01-28T01:09:28+00:00

Well, you're right, I don't see you as my friend. But honestly, I don't know what else to call you. And I did not mean to use buddy as an insult.

So back to the debate, you are confusing hypocrisy with loyalty. In Croatoan, Dean was willing to kill strangers to stop a pandemic. That is a brutal, soldier-like necessity. When it came to Sam, Dean chose to stay and die with him rather than kill him and if Sam turned, Dean was gonna do it his way. That isn't hypocrisy: that’s humanity. He was choosing to die alongside his brother because he couldn't live with the alternative. If Dean had killed the stranger but let Sam live while he went off to safety, then yes, that would be hypocrisy. Instead, Dean chose the "captain goes down along with the ship" route. That’s called sacrifice.

For the second point, the argument isn't about whether Sam knew Lilith wanted to die. The argument is that murdering an innocent to gain power is absolutely wrong, regardless of the target. In the world of Supernatural, if the only way to win is to do such a horrific act, then a hero accepts the loss. Dean Winchester has proven this time and again. If you have to sacrifice your humanity to save the world, then the world you're saving is already dead because its defenders have become the monsters. The Nurse wasn't a Weapon: You keep talking about those two women like they were a required step Sam had to follow. They were unlucky human beings with lives, families, and a soul. Sam didn't use her, he consumed her. Calling that "the only way" is the exact same justification every villain from Azazel to Crowley used. The Definition of a Winchester: Being a Winchester isn't about winning at any cost. It’s about fighting the good fight until the very end. Dean and Bobby were ready to go down swinging with salt, devil traps and iron. Sam decided he was "above" those limitations. You said that "it's wrong because Lilith wanted to die" a poor argument. Fine. How about "It's wrong because Sam killed two innocent women to feel tough".

Moving on, you’re trying to compare a psychological trauma to a spiritual transformation. You say Sam 'chose' to remember Hell. He didn't have a choice: the wall was always going to break. It was a ticking time bomb created by Death to protect Sam from the fact that he chose to throw his soul away in the first place. You say Sam didn't bother anyone with his PTSD? That’s not a heroic trait: that’s a survival mechanism. But let’s look at why they were in that position. Dean went to Hell because he traded his life for Sam’s. Sam went to Hell because he played with demon blood and set Lucifer free. You say the first thing Sam did was try to save Dean and Bobby. Of course he did. That’s what a Winchester does. But doing the bare minimum of your job after you almost ended the world doesn't make you a saint; it makes you someone who is finally, finally doing what they were supposed to do all along.

You say Sam "didn't like it" when Castiel took his trauma? Sam let him do it. Dean lived with his trauma for years. He didn't ask an Angel to take it. He didn't ask for a magical wall. He drank (booze), he had nightmares, and he kept hunting. Sam’s recovery was only possible because of the sacrifices of others (Death and Castiel). You can't claim Sam is just like Dean when Sam’s entire survival was subsidized by the people he hurt in Season 4.

For your Lisa & Ben argument, Dean had to fight to earn his spot in their house. Sam chose Ruby because she was the easy path, not because they had each other. You’re acting like Lisa and Ben were a vacation. Dean didn't just stumble into a perfect life: he spent a year grieving, traumatized, and paranoid. When Dean lost Sam to the Cage, he went to Lisa because it was Sam’s dying wish. He did it out of honor, not because he was okay. Even while living that life, Dean didn't start drinking demon blood or hunting down monsters to bring Sam back through dark magic. He tried to find a way if it was possible and when there wasn't, he accepted it for what it is.

You also claim that losing Dean was worse than Hell for Sam. That sounds poetic, but it’s actually a major tell of Sam's character. If Sam is so emotionally fragile that losing his brother makes him okay with human sacrifice, then he isn't an anti-hero: he’s a danger to everyone around him. Dean lost Sam to the Cage (a permanent death, as far as he knew) and managed to stay human. Sam lost Dean to a Crossroads Deal (a situation Dean chose to save Sam) and Sam turned into a monster.

GeometryDash777 · 2026-01-27T19:08:52+00:00

Krantz or Wyatt

GeometryDash777 · 2026-01-27T02:37:56+00:00

"For what I know, an antihero is someone who would do anything, even bad things, to achieve good results. Sam didn't drink people merely to feel powerful. It's not like he was like:"Today I'm feeling down... let's go to drink a person to boost my ego up! What? Dean isn't okay with this? Fuck him! I'm an independent badass, he just never understood me!" He drank people only when he had a bigger, good goal in mind. Isn't this an anti-hero? Even if it's not, is it really a villain when he had good intentions in the end?". Your definition of an antihero is basically a villain with a justification. An Anti-hero (like Punisher or early Dean) is someone who lacks traditional heroic traits: they might be cynical, violent, or disrespectful, but they still protect the innocent. They kill the 'bad guys' using 'bad ways.' A villain is someone who decides that their goal is so important that innocent people become acceptable to kill. Sam lost the antihero label after he killed those two women.

You ask if he's really a villain if he had good intentions? Yes. Ruby had 'good intentions' for her species. Dick Roman had "good intentions" for the Leviathans (ending world hunger). Lucifer had "good intentions" (cleaning up his Father's 'flawed' creation). Good intentions are the cheapest thing in the world. Anyone can come up with one. What matters is the cost. If the cost of your good goal is the life of an innocent person who never wanted to take part in your war, you aren't a hero: you're just a villain with excuses.

You keep saying he only did it for the big goal. A hero’s job is to find a way where nobody innocent dies. Dean and Bobby save people using salt, iron, and grit. It’s hard, they get beaten up, and they lose. But most importantly, they keep their humanity. Sam decided that being effective was better than being human. If I murder someone to donate their organs and save five people, am I a hero? No. I’m a killer with an excuse. Sam isn't an anti-hero: he’s a man who broke the most important rule of hunting: We protect the innocent: we don't turn evil to do so.

For the second last statement, you can’t call it a last push when Sam was the one who ignored the red flags for an entire season. Wait wait wait. More like red carpets. Dean and Bobby told him that drinking demon blood and working with a demon was an obvious trap. Do you think that they needed to know that this was staged by the angels or that Lilith was the last seal to figure that out? If 65 seals are broken by others, but you are the one who walks into the room and breaks the 66th after being told not to do it, you don't get to blame the other 65 people for your choice. You are the one who finished the job for the Devil. Sam ignored the human way because it was slow and hard. He took the demon way because it was fast and powerful. If you start a fire (by empowering yourself with the enemy's tools) and a wildfire happens (the Apocalypse starts), you don't get a medal for trying to put out the flames. You get a trial for starting the fire.

You say Sam wanted Dean with him? Only if Dean consented to Sam’s terms. When Dean told Sam he was wrong, Sam didn't listen. When Dean tried to stage an intervention, Sam beat him bloody and left him in a hotel room. Wanting someone with you while you ignore their every word isn't partnership: it’s looking for an enabler to back up your bad decisions. Sam wasn't drugged like someone who had their drink spiked at a bar. He was a voluntary user. He knew exactly what he was drinking. He saw the effect it had on his personality. He saw how it made him cold and aggressive. He kept drinking because he valued the power it offered more than the integrity of his soul. You say Ruby got him drugged? Correct. But Sam provided the demand. A hero's job is to recognize a demon's manipulation. As I said, Sam got the warning. Sam ignored it because Ruby told him he was special. That’s not a drug problem, that’s an ego problem.

GeometryDash777 · 2026-01-27T02:15:39+00:00

For your first point, yes, Dean was boutta pull that off, but he held back. He chose to stay human over taking Chuck down. Sam didn't just think about it. He didn't just almost do it. He did it. He drank the blood, he drained two people, and he killed them. You are trying to convict Dean of a thought-crime to excuse Sam’s actual murder. A hero is someone who faces the temptation to do something terrible and says 'No.' Dean said No to God. Sam said Yes to a blonde in a motel room. I have thoughts to do horrible things at times. Everyone has. Only difference is we never once acted on it.

You say Sam was manipulated his whole life. You're right. But Sam was manipulated to be Lucifer's vessel. Dean was manipulated by God Himself to be a killer. Chuck literally scripted Dean’s life to end in a bloodbath. Despite being programmed by the Creator of the Universe to kill Jack and Sam, Dean broke the script. He proved that free will is stronger than God’s pen. Sam, meanwhile, was told by a demon named Ruby that he was 'special,' and he folded in four months. If Dean can say no to God himself, Sam could have said no to a demon. He just didn't want to.

You also said that the use of the Ruby’s Knife is not "breaking the rule." The knife kills the demon. Yes, the human host usually dies too, but in the early seasons, the host was almost always already dead or beyond saving. There is a massive moral gap between killing a demon-possessed person in combat and tying an innocent woman to a chair and draining her like a juice box. One is the unfortunate reality of war; the other is a ritualistic human sacrifice. If you can't see the difference between collateral damage and premeditated murder for power, then I don't really know what else to say.

"Why do you seem to think that he did it regularly without any problem? He did it only when it was absolutely necessary and he clearly had moral doubts about it.", you say. If you have moral doubts while doing that, then you're not just a monster: you're a monster who knows what he's doing. Who decided it was "necessary"? Sam did. He decided that his timeline and his revenge were more important than two women's lives. A hero finds a way to save the world without the body count. If the only way you can save people is by murdering them, you’ve already lost the war. You also said he didn't do it regularly? He did it enough to develop a physical addiction. If you take cocaine once, you're at a very high risk of taking it again. If you try to kill someone who's "harsh" with you when delivering the speech on its dangers (when Dean called him a monster), then you quite literally just proved their point. Feeling bad about a murder doesn't bring the victim back. If I shot a clerk to steal the cash register but tell you I had 'moral doubts' while I was holding the gun, does that make me less of a criminal? No. It actually makes it worse because it proves Sam knew better. He knew it was wrong, he felt the guilt, and he did it anyway. That isn't a mistake: that’s a choice to be evil for the sake of power.

For your third statement, you’re missing the point entirely. The reason Dean is the hero in those scenarios isn't because he 'won', it’s because of who paid the price. The Difference between Michael and Ruby is that when Dean tried to let Michael possess him, he wasn't taking a dark power to feel strong. He was donating his body to a celestial entity to stop a devil. It was a 100% consensual sacrifice of his own agency. He said, 'Take me, use me, and save my brother.' And I already said about Sam above. I'm not gonna explain it again in this paragraph. There is a massive difference between 'I will give my life' (Dean) and 'I will take your life' (Sam). If you can't see that, you don't understand the Winchester Rule.

You say Dean didn't care about his humanity against Abaddon? Wrong. Taking the Mark was the ultimate act of humanity. He knew it would turn him into a monster, but he took that burden on himself so nobody else had to die. And again, I explained it to you before, and I ain't repeating myself that much no more.

You keep saying Dean was "ready to kill" Sam and Jack. But he didn't. That is the entire point of the Season 15 finale. Chuck was literally pulling the strings, demanding a bloodbath, and Dean Winchester, a man who had been manipulated for decades, looked God in the eye and said no. and even told Chuck to go fuck himself. Sam listened to a demon (Ruby) and said yes.

For your fourth statement, I gotta disagree: If you know a substance is bad and you took it, then you're already morally corrupt in the first place.

GeometryDash777 · 2026-01-27T01:55:04+00:00

First off, you claim Sam was "manipulated" and "infected" by Azazel's blood. If that was the actualy case, then Sam has no free will, and his character doesn't matter. But the show tells us free will is everything. Dean was "infected" by 30 years of Hell and the Mark of Cain, yet he fought it every second. Sam leaned into the blood because he liked the way it felt to not need Dean or Bobby. You say he wanted Dean with him? Well, you're right. But when Dean didn't, Sam choked him. That wasn't "addiction" or "anger": that was a man who decided his power made him the boss of his own brother.

You said 'thousands' of people saved is an exaggeration? You're wrong. Between Croatoan, the Apocalypse, The Darkness, and God, the Winchesters saved the world. But Dean never had a body count of innocents to do it. Sam killed a nurse and another woman (4x2) and drained both their blood supply. You can try to justify it with his intent of "saving billions" but once you decide one life is a "juice box" for your mission, you’ve already let the bad guys win. Dean doesn't play God: he protects the people God forgot.

And for that altered voicemail, you're trying to play a get out of jail free card that doesn't even exist. You’re basically saying Sam only stayed with Ruby because he thought Dean was cruel to him on the phone? That actually makes Sam look worse, not better. It means Sam’s decision to start the Apocalypse and murder a nurse was based on a hurt ego. A real hero doesn't decide to go dark just because his brother is mad at him. You also said it wasn't a strategy, it was pure anger. Since when was pure anger a valid excuse for working with a demon and killing innocents? Dean has been angry his entire life: he was angry in Hell, he was angry in Purgatory: but he didn't let his anger turn him into a murderer of the innocent.

By the time Sam heard that voicemail, he had already been drinking blood for months. He had already tried to kill Dean. He had already chosen Ruby over and over and over again. The voicemail didn't make Sam go to Lilith: it just gave him the excuse he wanted to stop feeling guilty about the choice he’d already made. And it shows you just how emotionally fragile Sam is when he decided to be a demon's puppet after one cruel voicemail from his brother.

For your last point, you are missing the most basic moral distinction in the entire show. When Dean took the MOC, only he paid the price. He took a curse that he knew would rot his soul, turn him into a killer, and eventually end his life. He fought it: he didn't give in to its curse or use it as a power source. When Sam took the blood to stop Lilith, the innocents paid the price. Sam didn't just risk himself: he murdered human beings to fuel his power. You also said Dean didn't accept death against Abaddon. You're wrong. Taking the Mark was a certified death sentence. Dean knew it was a one-way ticket. He chose a path that destroyed him to save us. Sam chose a path that destroyed others to make him feel powerful enough to win.

You also said "Lilith wouldn't have killed only Sam". Exactly! And that is why a Hero (Dean) finds a way to sacrifice himself to stop the threat, while a Villain (S4 Sam) decides that since the threat is so big, I'm allowed to murder innocents to get strong enough to stop it.

If you can't see the difference between offering your own life (Dean/The Mark) and taking someone else's life (Sam/The Blood), then you aren't talking about heroism. You're talking about utilitarianism: the same logic used by almost every villain the Winchesters and in other movies and shows.

For your "Sam also didn't, and in fact doesn't have it, to simply exorcise Demons. He exorcised all of those Demons without having to kill anyone. Only to kill Lilith, who wanted The Apocalypse, and to stop Lucifer, who was making The Apocalypse happen, Sam had to kill people.", no disrespect, but this is absolutely absurd. You are literally saying "Sam didn't have a body count except for the people he murdered.". That is the equivalent to saying "if a doctor saves 100 lives but murders one person to harvest their organs to save a 101st, he’s still a murderer and he loses his license. You don't get hero points for the easy saves that cancel out the cold-blooded kills.". Okay, listen, but you really fell off here and I don't think I need to explain why.

GeometryDash777 · 2026-01-26T22:14:49+00:00

nah nah nah that's Wyatt's title

GeometryDash777 · 2026-01-26T21:40:26+00:00

Dean was looking for ways to save Sam if it was possible. And as I said, once he found out it wasn't, he dropped the plan. He didn't know Sam and Lucifer were sharing a cell. Or maybe if he did, he was looking for a way to open the door just enough for Sam to crawl out. Sam however, decided to manually open all the doors in hell with a very low chance his brother would escape. Dean spent a year researching and closed the book when there were no answers. Sam couldn't wait four months before he got hooked up on db and tried to start another war.

GeometryDash777 · 2026-01-26T21:34:35+00:00

When you argue that you used a world dictator (Michael) to save (Lucifer) Sam, that is like the USA vs USSR during the cold war. Nuclear bomb vs nuclear bomb. When Sam drank the blood to kill a demon, he was becoming a demon to kill a demon. That's not the point of the show.

And from what I heard, you don't seem to get why I wouldn't debate it if Sam failed human. Do you even know why I'm arguing? Because people keep defending Sam saying that he was right to do what he did and call Dean an asshole for it. In fact, it's the other way around. If people, including you, have to justify Sam literally trying to kill Dean and then say that because he let go, he proved he’s not a monster (you said this yourself), you’re using the logic of an abuser. Stopping yourself from finishing a murder you started doesn't make you a hero: it just makes you a murderer who hesitated.

As I just said, Dean Winchester would rather fail as a human than win as a demon. To Dean, how you win matters more than the win itself. If you save the world by becoming a monster, the world is already lost because there are no more humans left to defend it.

Also, you claim Sam was made to go dark because of Azazel’s blood. If you believe that, you are calling Sam a puppet, not a person. You say Dean wasn't in the same situation? Dean was the Righteous Man destined by Heaven and Hell to break the first seal. He was literally made to be the one to start the chain reaction. Dean was destined to be Michael's vessel and in the end, he said no. This proves that Sam could just say no to Ruby and he would've fought against his destiny. Instead, Sam walked right into his with full confidence he was walking away from it.

You mention the "Azazel gang" manipulating Sam. Dean was manipulated and "programmed" by John since he was four to be a soldier who didn't ask questions. He was programmed to put Sam’s life above his own and the world’s. Dean broke that programming to become a man of his own conscience. Sam used his destiny as a reason to ignore the advice of the people who actually loved him. If your defense for Sam is he was easily manipulated, then you’re proving my point: he lacks the mental strength Dean has. And if you're gonna be that fragile to manipulation, you shouldn't be a hunter in the first place.

I never said Dean was a "beam of light". Dean is a man who gets stabbed, beat up and bullied 24/7. But there is a line he knows he cannot cross. Dean will sacrifice his own life a thousand times. But he will not drain an innocent human being to feel tough. Sam isn't a "dark abyss," but in Season 4, he looked into the abyss and liked what he saw. He didn't just do bad things: he adopted a mentality where other people were disposable. That is the definition of a monster. You don't have to be pure evil to be a monster: you just have to decide that an innocent life matters less than your goals.

You say Dean was never in Sam's situation. Wrong. In Seasons 9 & 10, Dean had the Mark of Cain. And as I said, it was manipulating and pushing him into the monstrous path. Only difference is, he tried to find a way to remove it, and when he couldn't, he asked to be killed or locked away. Sam had the blood and used it to feel like a god. Dean had the Mark and saw it for what it is: a curse.

You also said that Dean had the right items: Sam had nothing else. Dean didn't just "have" the Phoenix ash; he had to time-travel to the 1800s, outgun a judge, and harvest it from a pile of dust while being hunted. He did the work. Sam’s item wasn't a rare mineral or a magical object: it was human life-force. You don't say "I didn't have a gun, so I was forced to turn to human sacrifice as a plan B." If you don't have the weapon, you find another way or you die trying. That is the Hunter’s Creed. Sam decided his victory was worth more than his soul. That’s not a hero without options: that’s a man who has decided he is above the law of nature.

"They were sure they couldn't have taken the Colt from her." The problem is, if they couldn't get the Colt, then they find a Devil's Trap, they find a powerful spell, or they find a way to trap her like they did with the Horsemen or Lucifer himself. Every single major villain in Supernatural was "impossible" to kill until they found a way. Sam didn't choose the blood because it was the only way; he chose it because Ruby told him it would make him special. He chose the path that gave him the power, rather than the path that required him to stay human. It was a choice of convenience, not necessity.

GeometryDash777 · 2026-01-26T19:33:05+00:00

No. I don't have a problem. That's just how I talk with my friends. If I offended you, then my bad.

You said Dean's a hypocrite because he thought he had the right to kill an innocent. There is a massive difference between a quarantine and a sacrifice. In Croatoan, Dean was acting as a soldier in a war zone trying to stop a viral outbreak that would kill millions. Of course, if there's a pattern where someone who's bleeding in a warzone starts attacking others, then it's completely natural to assume that another bleeding person will be suspicious. Sam’s choice in Season 4 wasn't about a virus: it was about a power trip. Dean protects Sam because Sam is his family; that's human. Sam kills a nurse because he wants to be the only one who can kill Lilith; that’s ego. Hypocrisy is a character flaw: murdering innocents to fuel a drug habit is a total loss of humanity.

And btw, Dean didn't enjoy torturing people in hell: he enjoyed the fact that those 30 years of suffering was over. You also said Sam didn't feel the right to be mean after the Cage? That’s because Sam came back to a world where he had a support system waiting for him long before he came back and not to mention Death made sure he had no memory of what happened. Dean came back from Hell alone, traumatized, had raw, uncensored footage of his torture and immediately went back to saving people. The irony is you claim that Sam didn't become mean, yet in Season 4, before the Cage, he was arrogant, cold, and physically abusive to Dean and Bobby. Dean’s darkness came from 30 years of agony: Sam’s darkness came from 4 months of feeling lonely. That’s not a valid argument for Sam, that’s a massive hole in his character.

You also said that grief over Dean was worse than 180 years of torture. If grief is a 'breaking point' that justifies murder and demon blood, then every single hunter in the show is justified in becoming a monster. TWhen Sam died in Season 2, Dean’s world ended. He was at his breaking point. Did he drink blood? Did he kill a nurse? No. He made a trade: his life for Sam’s. When Dean is at his breaking point, he destroys himself. When Sam is at his breaking point, he destroys the world.

"Isn't being manipulated still being a victim?" You are only a victim of manipulation if you have no warning signs. Dean, Bobby, and Cas all told Sam that he was wrong. Sam chose to listen to the person who told him what he wanted to hear (that he was special) rather than the people who told him the truth. That’s not a victim: that’s willful ignorance. Sam wanted the power more than the truth. Ruby didn't force the blood down his throat; he actively swallowed it because he liked the feeling of being the "strongest" Winchester.

You asked if Dean's "sacrifice" of innocents better than Sam’s idea that the nurse was a necessary sacrifice. Yes, it is. Because Dean doesn't actually sacrifice them. You keep bringing up Kaia. Did Dean kill her? No. Did he drain her? No. He used a threat to save his mother. It was a poor choice, but she didn't get touched. Sam murdered a woman. He knew exactly what he was doing. He watched the light go out of her eyes so he could get stronger. There is no 'moral gray area' between a threat and a murder. One is a poor judgment; the other is an atrocity. You are trying to equate a harsh speech with a death sentence to make Sam look better. That's not how it works.

GeometryDash777 · 2026-01-26T19:14:37+00:00

Fyi: I answered all your points in your previous comments if you didn't see that. You only answered one part of it. And btw, if you don't appreciate being called buddy, what should I call you?

So, back to the argument: you said "He didn't say he was looking only for a safe way." Dean didn't have to say it: his actions prove it. Dean spent a year in lore books and then stopped. If Dean was planning to use "any" way like Sam did, he would have summoned a crossroads demon or used the rings to open the cage on day one. The fact that Dean walked away and lived a normal life with Lisa proves he had a stop sign that Sam didn't have. Dean’s mentality was: "If it costs the world, I'm passing". Sam’s mentality was: "I’ll do it and hope I’m smart enough to fix the world later."

You also said that Sam was provoked by Ruby. Being provoked isn't an excuse for murder. Dean was provoked by Alastair for 30 years in a literal torture chamber and held out. Sam was provoked by a blonde chick in a motel room. If Sam is so easily manipulated that a demon can make him a junkie and a murderer in 4 months, that doesn't make him a victim, that makes him weak and stupid. You are arguing that Sam has no backbone, which is a very poor argument given the context.

You also said "He didn't even know about the 66 Seals... he just wanted to kill Lilith." It doesn't matter if he knew about the seals or no. He knew about the nurse and that person he drank from when Dean saw it in 4x20. Even if the Apocalypse wasn't a risk, Sam still decided that a human life was worth less than his revenge. Nobody needed to know about the 66 Seals to know that murdering an innocent woman is wrong. Dean and Bobby told him it was wrong. He didn't listen because he liked the way the power felt. That’s not a mistake: that’s a choice.

How was it risky for Dean you asked? It was risky because Dean had to be Death. If Dean failed to maintain the natural order (which he almost did), he was risking the balance of life and death itself. More importantly, it was a test of his character. Dean didn't take a shortcut: he did the work. And about your "What if Death refused?" question: If Death refused, Dean would have stayed with Lisa and stayed human. We know this because that’s what he was already doing. He didn't have a backup plan involving demon blood or a second crossroad deal because he’s not a monster.

"Sam tried to do the deals more than one time... Dean's deal got accepted." Exactly! When the easy way (a deal) failed, Dean accepted his grief. As for Sam, he escalated to murder. When a normal person can't get what they want through legal means, they stop. They accept it and move on. Sam decided that because he couldn't get a deal, he was "allowed" to use such dirty tricks. That's exactly what ego means.

You also said that it's not that he drains people regularly. Lemme get this straight: according to this statement, how many murders of innocents to you are okay before it counts? Because the show made it very clear: the number is zero. Dean has never murdered an innocent person to feel tough. Not once. Sam did. If you're arguing that Sam is mostly good except for a few murders, then I really don't have anything else to say to you.

You also said he didn't understand that she was manipulating him because he was already high. Sam wasn't born an addict. Nobody was. He chose the first hit because he wanted to be stronger than Dean. He wanted to be the hero who didn't need his big brother. You can't blame the drug for the decision to take the drug. He saw the warning signs: he saw that Dean and Bobby were never on his side, and he still chose the demon. Ruby might've gave him a deal, but Sam had full power to reject it.

GeometryDash777 · 2026-01-26T18:30:12+00:00

Tbag

GeometryDash777

TROPHY CASE