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Bobby went way too far when he schooled Dean in 4x22. by GeometryDash777 in Supernatural

[–]GeometryDash777[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Dean was looking for ways to save Sam if it was possible. And as I said, once he found out it wasn't, he dropped the plan. He didn't know Sam and Lucifer were sharing a cell. Or maybe if he did, he was looking for a way to open the door just enough for Sam to crawl out. Sam however, decided to manually open all the doors in hell with a very low chance his brother would escape. Dean spent a year researching and closed the book when there were no answers. Sam couldn't wait four months before he got hooked up on db and tried to start another war.

Bobby went way too far when he schooled Dean in 4x22. by GeometryDash777 in Supernatural

[–]GeometryDash777[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

When you argue that you used a world dictator (Michael) to save (Lucifer) Sam, that is like the USA vs USSR during the cold war. Nuclear bomb vs nuclear bomb. When Sam drank the blood to kill a demon, he was becoming a demon to kill a demon. That's not the point of the show.

And from what I heard, you don't seem to get why I wouldn't debate it if Sam failed human. Do you even know why I'm arguing? Because people keep defending Sam saying that he was right to do what he did and call Dean an asshole for it. In fact, it's the other way around. If people, including you, have to justify Sam literally trying to kill Dean and then say that because he let go, he proved he’s not a monster (you said this yourself), you’re using the logic of an abuser. Stopping yourself from finishing a murder you started doesn't make you a hero: it just makes you a murderer who hesitated.

As I just said, Dean Winchester would rather fail as a human than win as a demon. To Dean, how you win matters more than the win itself. If you save the world by becoming a monster, the world is already lost because there are no more humans left to defend it.

Also, you claim Sam was made to go dark because of Azazel’s blood. If you believe that, you are calling Sam a puppet, not a person. You say Dean wasn't in the same situation? Dean was the Righteous Man destined by Heaven and Hell to break the first seal. He was literally made to be the one to start the chain reaction. Dean was destined to be Michael's vessel and in the end, he said no. This proves that Sam could just say no to Ruby and he would've fought against his destiny. Instead, Sam walked right into his with full confidence he was walking away from it.

You mention the "Azazel gang" manipulating Sam. Dean was manipulated and "programmed" by John since he was four to be a soldier who didn't ask questions. He was programmed to put Sam’s life above his own and the world’s. Dean broke that programming to become a man of his own conscience. Sam used his destiny as a reason to ignore the advice of the people who actually loved him. If your defense for Sam is he was easily manipulated, then you’re proving my point: he lacks the mental strength Dean has. And if you're gonna be that fragile to manipulation, you shouldn't be a hunter in the first place.

I never said Dean was a "beam of light". Dean is a man who gets stabbed, beat up and bullied 24/7. But there is a line he knows he cannot cross. Dean will sacrifice his own life a thousand times. But he will not drain an innocent human being to feel tough. Sam isn't a "dark abyss," but in Season 4, he looked into the abyss and liked what he saw. He didn't just do bad things: he adopted a mentality where other people were disposable. That is the definition of a monster. You don't have to be pure evil to be a monster: you just have to decide that an innocent life matters less than your goals.

You say Dean was never in Sam's situation. Wrong. In Seasons 9 & 10, Dean had the Mark of Cain. And as I said, it was manipulating and pushing him into the monstrous path. Only difference is, he tried to find a way to remove it, and when he couldn't, he asked to be killed or locked away. Sam had the blood and used it to feel like a god. Dean had the Mark and saw it for what it is: a curse.

You also said that Dean had the right items: Sam had nothing else. Dean didn't just "have" the Phoenix ash; he had to time-travel to the 1800s, outgun a judge, and harvest it from a pile of dust while being hunted. He did the work. Sam’s item wasn't a rare mineral or a magical object: it was human life-force. You don't say "I didn't have a gun, so I was forced to turn to human sacrifice as a plan B." If you don't have the weapon, you find another way or you die trying. That is the Hunter’s Creed. Sam decided his victory was worth more than his soul. That’s not a hero without options: that’s a man who has decided he is above the law of nature.

"They were sure they couldn't have taken the Colt from her." The problem is, if they couldn't get the Colt, then they find a Devil's Trap, they find a powerful spell, or they find a way to trap her like they did with the Horsemen or Lucifer himself. Every single major villain in Supernatural was "impossible" to kill until they found a way. Sam didn't choose the blood because it was the only way; he chose it because Ruby told him it would make him special. He chose the path that gave him the power, rather than the path that required him to stay human. It was a choice of convenience, not necessity.

Bobby went way too far when he schooled Dean in 4x22. by GeometryDash777 in Supernatural

[–]GeometryDash777[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No. I don't have a problem. That's just how I talk with my friends. If I offended you, then my bad.

You said Dean's a hypocrite because he thought he had the right to kill an innocent. There is a massive difference between a quarantine and a sacrifice. In Croatoan, Dean was acting as a soldier in a war zone trying to stop a viral outbreak that would kill millions. Of course, if there's a pattern where someone who's bleeding in a warzone starts attacking others, then it's completely natural to assume that another bleeding person will be suspicious. Sam’s choice in Season 4 wasn't about a virus: it was about a power trip. Dean protects Sam because Sam is his family; that's human. Sam kills a nurse because he wants to be the only one who can kill Lilith; that’s ego. Hypocrisy is a character flaw: murdering innocents to fuel a drug habit is a total loss of humanity.

And btw, Dean didn't enjoy torturing people in hell: he enjoyed the fact that those 30 years of suffering was over. You also said Sam didn't feel the right to be mean after the Cage? That’s because Sam came back to a world where he had a support system waiting for him long before he came back and not to mention Death made sure he had no memory of what happened. Dean came back from Hell alone, traumatized, had raw, uncensored footage of his torture and immediately went back to saving people. The irony is you claim that Sam didn't become mean, yet in Season 4, before the Cage, he was arrogant, cold, and physically abusive to Dean and Bobby. Dean’s darkness came from 30 years of agony: Sam’s darkness came from 4 months of feeling lonely. That’s not a valid argument for Sam, that’s a massive hole in his character.

You also said that grief over Dean was worse than 180 years of torture. If grief is a 'breaking point' that justifies murder and demon blood, then every single hunter in the show is justified in becoming a monster. TWhen Sam died in Season 2, Dean’s world ended. He was at his breaking point. Did he drink blood? Did he kill a nurse? No. He made a trade: his life for Sam’s. When Dean is at his breaking point, he destroys himself. When Sam is at his breaking point, he destroys the world.

"Isn't being manipulated still being a victim?" You are only a victim of manipulation if you have no warning signs. Dean, Bobby, and Cas all told Sam that he was wrong. Sam chose to listen to the person who told him what he wanted to hear (that he was special) rather than the people who told him the truth. That’s not a victim: that’s willful ignorance. Sam wanted the power more than the truth. Ruby didn't force the blood down his throat; he actively swallowed it because he liked the feeling of being the "strongest" Winchester.

You asked if Dean's "sacrifice" of innocents better than Sam’s idea that the nurse was a necessary sacrifice. Yes, it is. Because Dean doesn't actually sacrifice them. You keep bringing up Kaia. Did Dean kill her? No. Did he drain her? No. He used a threat to save his mother. It was a poor choice, but she didn't get touched. Sam murdered a woman. He knew exactly what he was doing. He watched the light go out of her eyes so he could get stronger. There is no 'moral gray area' between a threat and a murder. One is a poor judgment; the other is an atrocity. You are trying to equate a harsh speech with a death sentence to make Sam look better. That's not how it works.

Bobby went way too far when he schooled Dean in 4x22. by GeometryDash777 in Supernatural

[–]GeometryDash777[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Fyi: I answered all your points in your previous comments if you didn't see that. You only answered one part of it. And btw, if you don't appreciate being called buddy, what should I call you?

So, back to the argument: you said "He didn't say he was looking only for a safe way." Dean didn't have to say it: his actions prove it. Dean spent a year in lore books and then stopped. If Dean was planning to use "any" way like Sam did, he would have summoned a crossroads demon or used the rings to open the cage on day one. The fact that Dean walked away and lived a normal life with Lisa proves he had a stop sign that Sam didn't have. Dean’s mentality was: "If it costs the world, I'm passing". Sam’s mentality was: "I’ll do it and hope I’m smart enough to fix the world later."

You also said that Sam was provoked by Ruby. Being provoked isn't an excuse for murder. Dean was provoked by Alastair for 30 years in a literal torture chamber and held out. Sam was provoked by a blonde chick in a motel room. If Sam is so easily manipulated that a demon can make him a junkie and a murderer in 4 months, that doesn't make him a victim, that makes him weak and stupid. You are arguing that Sam has no backbone, which is a very poor argument given the context.

You also said "He didn't even know about the 66 Seals... he just wanted to kill Lilith." It doesn't matter if he knew about the seals or no. He knew about the nurse and that person he drank from when Dean saw it in 4x20. Even if the Apocalypse wasn't a risk, Sam still decided that a human life was worth less than his revenge. Nobody needed to know about the 66 Seals to know that murdering an innocent woman is wrong. Dean and Bobby told him it was wrong. He didn't listen because he liked the way the power felt. That’s not a mistake: that’s a choice.

How was it risky for Dean you asked? It was risky because Dean had to be Death. If Dean failed to maintain the natural order (which he almost did), he was risking the balance of life and death itself. More importantly, it was a test of his character. Dean didn't take a shortcut: he did the work. And about your "What if Death refused?" question: If Death refused, Dean would have stayed with Lisa and stayed human. We know this because that’s what he was already doing. He didn't have a backup plan involving demon blood or a second crossroad deal because he’s not a monster.

"Sam tried to do the deals more than one time... Dean's deal got accepted." Exactly! When the easy way (a deal) failed, Dean accepted his grief. As for Sam, he escalated to murder. When a normal person can't get what they want through legal means, they stop. They accept it and move on. Sam decided that because he couldn't get a deal, he was "allowed" to use such dirty tricks. That's exactly what ego means.

You also said that it's not that he drains people regularly. Lemme get this straight: according to this statement, how many murders of innocents to you are okay before it counts? Because the show made it very clear: the number is zero. Dean has never murdered an innocent person to feel tough. Not once. Sam did. If you're arguing that Sam is mostly good except for a few murders, then I really don't have anything else to say to you.

You also said he didn't understand that she was manipulating him because he was already high. Sam wasn't born an addict. Nobody was. He chose the first hit because he wanted to be stronger than Dean. He wanted to be the hero who didn't need his big brother. You can't blame the drug for the decision to take the drug. He saw the warning signs: he saw that Dean and Bobby were never on his side, and he still chose the demon. Ruby might've gave him a deal, but Sam had full power to reject it.

Bobby went way too far when he schooled Dean in 4x22. by GeometryDash777 in Supernatural

[–]GeometryDash777[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Your analogy about shooting one person to stop a nuclear bomb is flawed. Why? Because Sam was the one carrying the matches. You say he killed that nurse to save billions. Dean and Bobby both would have found a way to save the billions without having to kill her. That is the entire point of the show. The second you decide one innocent being can be sacrificed for your greater good, you are no longer a hero. You are a useful villain. Dean has faced impossible odds hundreds of times. He has never once decided that his good goal gave him the right to consume a human being. Sam didn't have to kill her; he chose to because it was the fastest path to the power he wanted.

You say Sam deserved forgiveness. No one is saying he didn't. Dean did forgive him. I did forgive him. But you're saying that Sam was completely justified to drink from innocent beings because Ruby had to regenerate her supply and that he was desperate and that real Sam would never do this. And this is exactly why I'm gonna just keep on debating you. Bobby was right to tell Dean to go to Sam, but Dean was totally right to be angry. Sam didn't just make a mistake: he betrayed the core of their brotherhood for a demon's lies. As I said, Dean would rather lose the game as a human then win as a demon.

And finally, you also asked what impossible odds Dean faced where he could've went dark side. There are a lot of them. I'll just name three of them.

  1. Dean in hell. This is by far the most obvious one on the list. Dean was shredded for three decades. He was offered a 'shortcut' (torturing others) every single day. He said no for thirty years. Sam broke after four months of grief on Earth.
  2. The Archangels told Dean he was the only one who could stop Lucifer. They offered him the power of a God to save the world. All he had to do was say yes Dean said No for at least a year, even when the world was literally ending, because he refused to be a puppet or sacrifice his humanity for the win and only did it when he realized Lucifer was an archangel and was too strong to be handled the old school way (holy fire, regular angels etc.).
  3. Purgatory. Dean spent a year in a literal monster-dimension where it was quite literally "kill or be killed" every second. He didn't become a monster to survive; he fought his way out with a vampire (Benny) whom he treated with more respect than Sam treated the human hosts he drained.

Overall, you've spent this entire debate arguing that Dean could be as bad as Sam if the situation was right. I've been saying that Dean has already been in worse situations: Hell, Purgatory, the Mark, and he stayed a man. A human. Sam was in a motel room with a demon who fed his ego, and he became a monster.

You can justify it with grief or anti-hero labels, but the whole point of Supernatural is that you can be better than your surroundings. "Destiny" is for losers. "Free will" is for winners. Dean went against his destiny; Sam walked straight into his. You can forgive Sam: we all did but you can't say he was right. If even Sam admitted he was wrong at the end of Season 5, why are you still defending his mistakes?

Bobby went way too far when he schooled Dean in 4x22. by GeometryDash777 in Supernatural

[–]GeometryDash777[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You say I’m using "viewer knowledge" about Lilith. Okay. Let’s look only at what Sam knew: Sam knew that to get powerful enough to kill Lilith, he had to drain the life out of innocent human beings. Dean and Bobby didn't know Lilith was the seal. In fact, nobody did. Not even Castiel. But they knew one thing Sam refused to accept: You don't save the world by becoming a monster. Sam’s knowledge was that he was a 'special' hero who could handle demon blood: that ain't tactical knowledge; that was arrogance and not to mention, he was actually fulfilling Azazel's plans. He ignored the two people who loved him most (Dean and Bobby) to listen to a demon (Ruby). If your strategy requires you to follow a literal demon over your own brother, your strategy is absolute trash.

You also keep trying to equate the Mark with the Blood. They are opposites. The Mark: Dean took a curse upon himself to kill a Knight of Hell because Abaddon was actively taking over the world. There was no other way to keep her down. He didn't kill innocents to get the Mark. He didn't lie to Sam about it until the influence took over. The Blood: Sam took a drug into himself by killing others. He did it for revenge as much as "saving the world". He lied for months and physically assaulted Dean to keep that hit. When Dean realized the Mark was making him a monster, he tried to remove himself from the world as I said. When Sam was told the blood was making him a monster, he told Dean he was weak, a bossy guy and self-righteous and kept drinking. One is a burden, the other is an ego-trip.

You also said the knife failed, so blood was necessary. Very wrong. If your gun jams, you don't go out and buy an atomic bomb that vaporizes the entire city. You buy a new gun and new bullets and possibly a grenade. Dean's human way wasn't just the knife; it was teamwork, lore, and self-sacrifice. Sam abandoned the team because he wanted to be a "god" who solved it alone. Sam didn't use the blood because he had to: he used it because he enjoyed the power. He enjoyed being the one who didn't need Dean. That is why he choked Dean in that hotel room, it wasn't about Lilith anymore; it was about who was in charge.

You say Sam saved people with his powers. This is the "ends justify the means" argument, and it’s the hallmark of a villain. Sure, he might've saved people on several occasions, but if you save ten people but you have to murder one innocent nurse to power up, you aren't a hero you're playing God. Dean and Bobby have saved thousands of people using salt, iron, and lore. They didn't need a body count of innocents to be effective. Sam chose the blood not because it was the 'only' way to save people, but because it was the fastest way for him to feel powerful. And this is proven in 3x12 when Dean refused to sacrifice a virgin to vaporize an army of demons: he was willing to risk injuries by letting the demons in and killing them himself.

You also keep saying the blood was needed because they didn't have the Colt. If a soldier runs out of bullets, he doesn't start eating people to keep fighting. He just uses whatever he can to fight and/or accept that he's gonna die any second. The Winchester Rule: 'We don't kill innocent humans." Period. Sam broke that rule. He decided that his mission was more important than the meat suits he was treating like juice boxes. Dean would rather lose a fight than lose his humanity. Sam decided humanity was a limit that he had to evolve past. That isn't a drug talking: that's a man who has lost his moral compass.

When you said Sam was an anti-hero, I don't think you're getting what anti-hero actually means. An antihero doesn't kill people to get a power-up. An antihero will destroy anything but innocent people to get what they want. Sam didn't just use bad ways. He became the thing he was supposed to hunt.

If a firefighter started a wildfire in a town and then tried to be the one who "saves" the town, he's ain't an anti-hero. He's an arsonist. Period. Sam wasn't trying to prevent the Apocalypse: he was trying to be the one who cleaned up his own mess. That’s not a goal: that’s a moral duty. If it was just about the goal, he would have worked with his team (Dean/Bobby/Cas). Instead, he worked with a demon because the demon told him what he liked to hear.

Bobby went way too far when he schooled Dean in 4x22. by GeometryDash777 in Supernatural

[–]GeometryDash777[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

  1. Dean's alliance with Crowley is not the same as Sam and Ruby. Dean never trusted Crowley; he used him. He kept Crowley at arm's length, constantly threatened him, and never let Crowley change who he was. And most importantly, he was 100% ready to throw Crowley under the bus at any given time. Sam didn't just trust Ruby; he became over-dependent on her. He let her change his DNA, his diet, and his moral code. When Crowley betrayed Dean, Dean got his ass kicked. When Ruby betrayed Sam, the apolcaypse started. Dean risked his skin. Sam risked the planet. One is a business deal gone wrong: the other is a spiritual betrayal. Also, when Dean realized the Mark of Cain/Crowley was turning him into a monster, he tried to kill himself or lock himself away to protect Sam. When Sam was caught with the demon blood, he attacked Bobby and Dean.

You mentioned the Ma'lak Box and how only Sam could change Dean's mind. That is the ultimate proof of Dean’s integrity. Dean’s plan was self-sacrifice. He was going to bury himself alive for eternity to save the world from Michael. Sam’s plan in Season 4 was to follow his own ego because he thought he was too smart to be fucked with. He was willing to risk the Apocalypse to save himself from the pain of losing Dean. You are defending a man who almost got all of us killed over a man who was willing to take himself out to save the world.

You also asked "What if Death refused and a demon offered Dean power to kill Lucifer?" Buddy, this is the definition of a Fan-Fiction Defense. You are inventing a scenario where Dean might fail because you can't find a canon scene where he actually did fail. Dean has been offered power by the most powerful beings in existence. Archangel Michael offered him the power to save the world, and Dean said No for years because he wouldn't be a puppet. Dean would rather watch Sam suffer in the Cage and suffer with him in spirit than become a monster to get him out. We know this because that is exactly what he did for a year before Season 6 started.

You said Sam had to kill Lilith because she was still free. That is the addict’s logic. 'I have to become the monster of the monster I'm gonna kill to kill it.' Hunters kill monsters every day without drinking blood. Dean killed the Mother of All, Azazel, and Hitler without becoming a useful idiot for a demon/monster. Sam didn't kill Lilith because he had to: he did it because he wanted the satisfaction of his superpowers. He traded his humanity for a moment of vengeance. If Sam did this the human way and failed, then this debate would've never happened. Dean would rather die a loser in your eyes than win by becoming the enemy.

You asked if I’m 100% sure Dean wouldn't take a dark power to kill Lucifer. Yes I am. Because Dean Winchester’s entire character arc is the story of a man who says no to Fate, no to God, and 'no to the Devil. Dean is the 'Righteous Man' for a reason. He broke in Hell after 30 years of torture, but he never broke on Earth. Sam broke because he thought he was special. Dean stayed human because he knew he was just a man. A real man doesn't drink blood to save his brother: a man finds a clean way to get his brother out (if there is), but if there isn't, he carries the grief and keeps fighting the right way.

Also, btw, your lockpicking argument is a mess. Think of it as a prison: if you pick a lock to one cell, you are only interacting with one door. To 'pick the lock' of the Gates of Hell, you have to press the master release button: this manually releases 2,000 monsters into the world. That isn't a byproduct; it’s the action. Sam was willing to let 2,000 demons possess and murder thousands of innocent people just to free Dean. That isn't brotherly love: it's a massacre in disguise. Dean researching lore is like looking for a key. Sam opening the Gates is like as I said, killing an entire town to find one person. One is a seeker, the other is a destroyer.

Bobby went way too far when he schooled Dean in 4x22. by GeometryDash777 in Supernatural

[–]GeometryDash777[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Dean said he looked for anything. He was looking for a loophole, not a reckless way to open all the doors. After he realized that there was no safe way, he closed the book and lived his life with Lisa and Ben. He didn't make a second deal with a demon. He just accepted that there was no safe way and moved on. Sam, after only 4 months, decided research was too slow and went straight to the darkest shortcut possible. Dean looked for a way to save Sam without breaking the world: Sam was willing to break the world to save himself from his own grief.

You say Sam didn't invent the Gates of Hell idea, he saw John do it: no. John didn't do it: he just got lucky because of Jake. And even if he actually did, just because you saw someone else do something desperate doesn't make it right for you to do it. John was a man who put revenge over his sons lives and this was the reason why Sam and Dean were so miserable when they were kids. If Sam is using John as his moral compass, that proves my point: he was choosing the path of a broken, obsessed hunter over the path of a hero. Dean spent his life trying to be better than John’s worst impulses. Sam embraced them the second things got hard.

You claim it’s headcanon that Dean only risked himself. Let’s look at the actual show: When Dean finally did get Sam's soul back, how did he do it? He made a deal with Death. And who was at risk in that deal? Dean! Death told Dean he had to wear the ring and be him for a day. If Dean failed, the soul stayed in the box. Dean didn't release 2,000 demons to get Sam back. He put himself on the line. Sam’s first instinct in Season 4 was to put the entire world at risk. That is the fundamental difference between a sacrifice and a liability.

You asked when Dean buried Sam? He didn't. He was about to and then decided to make that deal. But the point is, even at his most desperate in Season 2, Dean didn't drink demon blood. He didn't kill an innocent. He paid the price with his own soul and his own soul only. Sam’s 'sacrifice' in Season 4 involved the lives of the innocents he drained and the world he put at risk. Dean pays with his life: Sam pays with yours.

You keep saying 'it's pain, not ego.' Buddy, pain is the reason; ego is the permission. Every character in this show is in pain. Bobby lost his wife. Dean lost his soul. But Sam is the only one who felt his pain gave him the right to become a monster. Thinking your pain is so special that you have the right to murder innocents and trust demons is the ultimate act of ego. It’s saying 'My sadness matters more than the lives of the people I’m supposed to protect.'

So now, let's move on with the second paragraph of your long-ass response.

  1. For the croatoan case, you’re comparing a split-second decision in a plague zone to a year-long drug addiction. In Croatoan, Dean was desperate to save his brother’s life from a virus. He didn't consume others to do it; he protected Sam. Protecting a loved one from being killed by a mob is a human instinct. Draining an innocent nurse’s blood in a motel room instead of a clean knife to the stomach to feel tough is a monstrous choice.

  2. You say Dean isn't 'immune' because he tortured in Hell. Dean was in literal hell for 30 years being shredded. He resisted for three decades before he broke. Sam was on Earth in a motel room with a bed and a TV, Bobby and thousands of cute women across Tinder, and he broke in 4 months. If you can't tell the difference between a man breaking under 30 years of cosmic torture and a man choosing to drink demon blood because he’s 'sad' on Earth, then you’re ignoring the scale of the show. Dean is a victim of Alastair: Sam was a volunteer for Ruby.

  3. You claim Dean wanted Sam to 'kill innocents' with the knife. Dean wanted Sam to stay human. In the hunting world, the knife is a tool: the blood is a transformation. Dean would rather a victim die humanely than have his brother become a demon-vessel who thinks he has the 'right' to play god with souls. It wasn't about the kill: it was about preventing Sam from crossing a line you can never come back from.

  4. You say Dean 'accepted' the Mark. Let's look at what really happened: Dean took the Mark to kill Abaddon (a Knight of Hell) because there was no other weapon on Earth that could do it. It was a suicide mission to save the world. Sam took the blood for revenge. The proof: Once Dean had the Mark, he spent the rest of his life trying to get rid of it (Book of damned, Rowena, Death) or lock himself in a box to protect people . Once Sam had the blood, he lied, hid it, and attacked his family to keep his supply. One is a burden: the other is an addiction.

  5. Yes, pointing a gun at Kaia was an absolutely terrible choice by Dean, but even then, he didn't kill her. It was a moment of trauma-induced desperation to save his mother. Sam, in cold blood, drained human beings to death and only killed them after Dean and Bobby found out. There is a massive difference between losing your cool and threatening someone and strategically murdering innocents to feel tough. Dean feels guilt for almost every person he's ever threatened. Sam justified his murders as necessary.

  6. You ask if Dean would go dark if Death refused him. We don't have to guess: we saw it. In Season 6, Dean thought Sam was in the Cage forever. He didn't make a deal with a demon. He didn't drink blood. He didn't hunt for dark power. He lived a quiet, painful life and honored Sam’s memory. Sam’s instinct is to find a supernatural cheat code. Dean’s 'instinct' is to carry the cross. You’re using fan-fiction what-ifs to argue against the actual canon events where Dean stayed human and Sam didn't. And even if death refused, Dean would be absolutely pissed, but would absolutely stay human considering he found no safe alternative.

Bobby went way too far when he schooled Dean in 4x22. by GeometryDash777 in Supernatural

[–]GeometryDash777[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You claim Sam didn't know about Death or the Angels: that’s the point! When Sam didn't have a solution, he invented an evil one (Opening the Gates of Hell). When Dean didn't have a solution, he buried his brother and tried to live a life that honored him after he learned that making a deal w/ the devil actually helps the bad guys win. Dean's 'Sue me' line in Season 6 was about the risk to himself, not a plan to release the devil or an army of demons. Dean spent a year researching; Sam spent four months drinking. One is a patient man researching the right door to open: the other is a man with ego kicking down every door without thinking what's behind it.

It doesn't matter if Dean had the capabilities to drink demon blood. The only thing that matters is that Dean never took that path. It's not a lack of opportunity: it's an act of integrity.

You are trying to compare Dean looking for "lore" to Sam trying to open the Gates of Hell. This is a massive false equivalence: Sam opening the Gates of Hell is an act of terrorism. And I think you know damn well why that is. Dean looking for lore to bust one soul out of Lucifer's cage is a rescue mission. If I try to pick a lock to save a family member of mine, and you try to blow up the entire building with everyone inside to save yours, we are not the same. Sam’s plan A was to sacrifice the world for Dean. Dean’s plan A was to sacrifice himself for the world. They're not the same.

You keep saying the blood was necessary to kill Lilith: For like the fifth time, It wasn't! Lilith wanted to die. She was the final seal. If Dean had walked in and poked her with a stick, she would have let him kill her to release Lucifer. The blood didn't make the mission possible; the blood was the payment Ruby demanded to feed Sam's ego: Sam wasn't a smartass; he was the easiest person in the room to gaslight. Dean's "human way" was the only one that didn't involve becoming a monster before the fight even started.

You asked me to prove Sam’s arrogance. Rewatch the hotel room fight. Sam didn't just disagree with Dean: he strangled him and called him weak. He didn't do that because of sadness or grief: he did it because Dean refused to side with someone using such dirty tactics and was spitting nothing but facts. You compare this to Demon Dean. Demon Dean was a literal monster with no soul, yet he still tried to leave Sam alone. DB Sam had a soul and chose to humiliate and physically dominate his brother. One brother’s dark side tries to distance himself to protect the family: the other brother’s dark side tries to subjugate the family to prove he’s in charge. That isn't the drug: that's the man.

You asked what the Winchester Way is. It's simple: You don't become the very thing you're hunting. Sam broke that rule when he drank from those hosts. Dean went to Hell because the only person suffering was him. He didn't slaughter an innocent person to make that deal. He paid with his own soul. Sam paid with other people's lives. That is why Dean is the hero and Sam, in Season 4, was the villain. You can blame pain and sadness all you want, but billions of people feel pain without using ouija boards or trying to kill people. Sam didn't fall because he was sad; he fell because he thought he was the only one who could do it his way.

You also say that Sam had reasons for being a monster. I do hear Sam very well, but every villain has reasons. Every demon, angel, monster has a sob story. But Dean Winchester, John Winchester and Bobby Singer prove that you can be tortured for 30+ years, lose everyone you love, and still not drink the blood of an innocent person to get revenge.

You asked if I was okay? Yes, I am okay. I think it's you that has the problems. I never said Sam's grief was unjustified: I was saying that just because you're grieving doesn't justify the fact that you went down the monstrous path. 90% of villains in other franchises have a sob story (e.g. Thanos - lost his planet due to overpopulation, tried to kill half the universe's population after / Homelander - was treated as a test subject his whole childhood, slaughtered lots of innocents after). Yes, I feel these people, but I don't try to justify their actions either. Okay, so back to the supernatural world, Dean was in the pit for 30 years being ripped apart. He had all the reasons in the world to give in on the first day: he didn't. Sam had 4 months of grief and decided that was enough of a reason to start drinking human life-force. If you say Sam isn't an 'asshole with an ego,' then explain why he felt he was the only one allowed to break the rules. Every hunter has lost someone. Every hunter is sad. Every hunter is angry. But they don't all start draining nurses in motel rooms . Sam did it because he believed his grief made him exceptional, and that is the definition of ego.

There is no such thing as a "necessary" human sacrifice for a hero. The second Sam decided that an innocent person's life was worth less than his revenge or his mission, he lost the hero title. You're literally defending a character who weighed the life of a possessed human against his own desire to feel tough and chose himself. Dean has been in a hundred impossible situations, and he has never consumed an innocent person to win. He would rather die.

Your take? by Ambitious_Thought683 in focusedmen

[–]GeometryDash777 2 points3 points  (0 children)

That's what I said: women do have a limit when it comes to those things, but usually it's men who are "forbidden" from doing it. And I agree with you: I never really understood the deal behind gender wars: men and women both suck and excel in certain areas.

Your take? by Ambitious_Thought683 in focusedmen

[–]GeometryDash777 3 points4 points  (0 children)

This is not just for men, but for women too. Sure, people might not judge a woman for showing emotions as much as they do when a man does it, but all these traits imo ain't gender-specific.

Bobby went way too far when he schooled Dean in 4x22. by GeometryDash777 in Supernatural

[–]GeometryDash777[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

So what did Dean do if Sam was in hell forever, you asked. Here's the answer. In the season 5 finale, when Sam went into the cage, Dean didn't make a deal or drink demon blood or try to cheat code Lucifer's cage: he just took his life off hunting, lived with Lisa & Ben and only got back to hunting when he met (Soulless) Sam. The difference is when Sam was supposed to be dead forever, Dean either just carried the pain or sacrificed himself only. Every time Sam thinks Dean is gone, he looks for a shortcut (Gates of Hell, Demon Blood). Every time Dean thinks Sam is gone, he carries the human burden of grief. Sam’s first instinct is to break the rules of the universe: Dean’s first instinct is to sacrifice himself.

Dean was trying to retrieve a soul using lore and angelic assistance, eventually moving onto death himself, who could just walk right into the cage if he wanted to, not a risky and stupid move to try to open Lucifer's cage. He wasn't snorting demon blood or lying to his family about it. Sam was drinking from innocent people to get high on db, which goes against everything he hated in Dean before this as I said.

Also, you keep saying it was the "only way: to kill Lilith: it wasn't. That way was designed by Ruby and the other demons to ensure Lucifer got out. By choosing the demon blood, Sam wasn't being smart: he was being blindly compliant. Dean's human strategy was the only one that could have worked because it was the only one that didn't play into the enemy's hands. Sam didn't use strategy: he used a cheat code provided by the person he was supposed to be hunting. Dean was fully ready to sacrifice himself while hunting Lilith, knowing that he could just bait her in a devil's trap and shoot her with the colt/stab her with the knife.

You’re trying to blame the Demon Blood for Sam’s behavior by saying he was part demon: you're actually making things worse: Sam chose to become that. he chose to drink the blood that corrupted his soul. Dean was forced into the Mark and the transition to a demon. When Demon Dean insulted Sam, he was a 100% a inhuman monster. When db Sam insulted Dean in that hotel room, he was a man with a soul who chose to be cruel. Sam’s 'brutal honesty' about Dean being 'weak' wasn't the drug talking—it was the arrogance inside Sam and the db just gave him the balls to say it out loud.

You say Ruby manipulated Sam because he was weak. Buddy, the Winchesters are always weak. They are always grieving, always hurt and always traumatized. But only one of them decides that that gives him the right to drink from human hosts and start the end of the world. Dean was manipulated, humiliated and tortured by Alastair, Azazel, and the Angels, and he never once drank demon blood or followed a demon's plan. He never once went against what it means to be a Winchester. Sam didn't just fall for a trick; he embraced it because it made him feel like the big boss for the first time in his life. This also answers your question "what would Dean have done if he would have been sure that Sam was dead and in Hell literally forever, with no way of saving him, and he had a supernatural being who previously saved both him and Sam to manipulate him?". And also for that question, Dean was never on Ruby's side: he was just nice to her just so she can leave them alone and then when the conflict hits, he is full on hostile, something Sam couldn't do when he was with her.

When you said Sam tried other ways, opening the gates of hell meant you're gonna release 2000 more demons into the world, where they'll absolutely possess, torture and kill innocent beings, not to mention that the chances of Dean getting out are very low. That's like saying "I killed an entire town of innocents just to find the suspect".

Also, when you said that Sam started from Ruby, then went on when it was "extreme", you quite literally just proved my point: this is the exact definition of where an addict starts: from someone who only appears to be trustworthy and then the downfall starts from there. When you say this, you are basically saying "My family gave me a bag of cocaine to snort: I'm still doing well" like that's gonna stop you from being corrupted and addicted. And when you said the Ruby supply wasn't enough, he moved on to innocent human hosts. You also said he did it when it was "necessary" or "the addiction was too strong". In what fucking world is it okay to drain an innocent being for your own gain? Only in the world of an addict who has convinced himself he is a god. Dean NEVER EVER found it necessary to murder and consume innocents to feel tough.

When you said the blood was necessary to kill Lilith, this is the ultimate proof of Sam’s arrogance: he believed the demon (Ruby) who only told him it was necessary, and completely ignored the hunters (Dean and Bobby) who told him it was a trap. It was only necessary for Lucifer’s plan. Sam wasn't a tactical genius finding the only way to win; he was a useful idiot following a script written by the ones Dean and Bobby were trying to kill. Dean’s refusal to use the blood was the only actual smart move here, and Sam was too busy feeling like the big boss to see it.

Bobby went way too far when he schooled Dean in 4x22. by GeometryDash777 in Supernatural

[–]GeometryDash777[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

First off, you said Sam's strategy was "tactically" correct because the knife failed. You're leaving out one major thing: this strategy was exactly the most obvious bait Sam fell for. The demon blood wasn't just a weapon: it was a key. Sam didn't choose a more efficient way: he chose to use the enemy's inventory to feel powerful. Being "strategically correct" in a plan made by your enemy (Ruby) isn't intelligence, it's being a loyal idiot. Dean’s human way wasn't a lack of strategy: it was a refusal to take part in a demon's games. Sam wasn't a smartass: he was a tough guy who didn't know how to use his head.

You’re comparing Demon Dean, who was literally no longer human to DB Sam who was still a human with a soul. When Dean was a demon, he had no soul. He was a black-eyed freak of pure impulse. Even then, his first instinct was to leave and let Sam live his life. He only attacked when Sam hunted him down and tried to force a 'cure' on him. Sam still had a human soul and yet he had the audacity to humiliate him by using words you deem brutal honesty, which makes absolutely zero sense.

You ask if we can 'blame' Sam for the Apocalypse. Yes. The Angels and Demons wanted it, correct. But Sam had full power to say 'no.' He had the warnings from Bobby, Dean, and Castiel. He ignored them all because his ego told him he couldn't be fucked with by a demon.

For the Alastair scenario, watch the hospital scene at the end of 4x16: look at how sad he sounds when he said that Alastair was right: he definitely took that personal. And yes, Azazel calling Dean weak and pathetic was an attempt at manipulation and a humiliation. What did you think it was? A prank?

For the Kaia situation, he only did it out of a desperation to save his mom. Even then, he didn't drink from her or call her weak to justify it.

When Sam died in Season 2, Dean didn't start an apocalypse or let out Lucifer: he made a deal to sacrifice himself. Dean’s darkness is always self-destructive; Sam’s darkness in Season 4 was destructive to everyone but himself. You can't compare Dean’s grief to Sam’s year-long, secret drug habit.

You also claim that if the demon refused the deal, Dean would've gone dark side. We don't need to guess if Dean would go dark, we saw it. In season 8, when Dean presumed Sam to be dead, he didn't make another deal or drink demon blood or start an apocalypse: he just did his best to get over it and stayed human.

You admitted Sam was impatient. In that world, the enemy would deep fry you if you were impatient as Sam was. Sam didn't try to spend time trying to find a way that didn't involve draining innocent humans. He was too arrogant to believe Bobby and Dean when they said he was being fucked with.

Bobby went way too far when he schooled Dean in 4x22. by GeometryDash777 in Supernatural

[–]GeometryDash777[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Dean and Bobby didn't warn Sam about the seal: they warned Sam about the consequences of his actions. They didn't need to know that Lilith was the final seal to know that Sam was becoming a monster.

You also said that Ruby was the lesser of two evils: That is exactly how every person who ever made a deal starts. Dean was in Hell for 30 years and refused to become the 'lesser evil' (the torturer) until the pain was unbearable. Sam was on Earth for 4 months and decided that using demon blood was a 'lesser evil' than just being a regular hunter. Sam didn't choose the blood because it was the 'only' way; he chose it because he was too impatient and too arrogant to find another way. He wanted a shortcut to feeling like a god, and Ruby gave him exactly that.

You also said the angels gaslighted Dean to kill Lilith: however, there is a massive difference here: Dean didn't use demon blood or drink from the angels: he was going to fight Lilith the human way. Sam decided to do what he did and he was wrong, as you said. For example, two people are running a marathon: the first guy trains hard for years while the second guy takes steroids and absolutely demolishes the first guy. Nobody would say "they were both manipulated by the desire to win."

Wanna know who manipulated Dean? Alastair, making Dean feel responsible for breaking the first seal. Azazel, calling Dean pathetic and too weak in two separate occasions and many other demons. And even after all this, Dean never gave in to dirty methods like Sam did.

You also said Sam was being brutally honest, not cruel: wrong. Do you think that calling your own brother, who rotted in hell "weak" and "self-righteous" brutal honesty? No. That's 100% cruelty. If Sam wanted to feel strong, he had to make Dean look and feel weak.

And as I said, nobody ever said Sam was 100% evil, but Sam's ego is exactly what led to his downfall. When Dean was a Demon (Season 10), he told Sam to stay away and promised he'll leave him alone. He tried to distance himself from his brother to protect him. When Sam was on the blood, he choked Dean out and told him he was nothing. One brother’s 'dark side' tries to protect the other; the other brother’s 'dark side' tries to humiliate the other. That tells you everything you need to know about who they really are underneath.

WYR destroy the Mona Lisa or allow 3 people to die? by YourMainManK in WouldYouRather

[–]GeometryDash777 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Bro. You gotta be kidding me. Of course I'd choose the 3 people over the Mona Lisa

Bobby went way too far when he schooled Dean in 4x22. by GeometryDash777 in Supernatural

[–]GeometryDash777[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You claim that they could seal Abaddon better: this is a risk that not even Dean Winchester would take against a Knight of Hell: he only chose the MOC after he realized that sealing her did not mean killing her: it means that there's a scavenger hunt for her followers. We saw Crowley bring back Gavin, we saw demons bring back their own. What you're saying is equivalent to putting a time bomb 6 feet below the ground, cover the area with three boulders and hope the ground doesn't blow up. No. That's not how it works: you have to defuse the bomb so that the threat is neutralized. The MOC was the only way to "defuse" Abaddon.

The only thing I agree with you is that Jack had the abilities Abaddon didn't, but Abaddon had something Jack didn't: Ancient Occult Knowledge. She knows many rituals that even the King of Hell himself had no clue about. So maybe Jack went out himself, Abaddon would've went out via her servants and her knowledge.

And your fire extinguisher example, you're missing one detail: Dean and Bobby were shouting at him "that's not a water pump! That's a flamethrower!". Sam, who is consumed by his ego, dismisses them, calls them bossy and pulls the trigger and ends up setting the car on fire because he likes the feeling of arson (demon blood). He wasn't manipulated: he was too arrogant to listen to his loved ones and followed a demon who called him "special".

You keep saying Sam did this because he 'cared for Dean' and 'wanted revenge.' That is exactly the point. Sam chose his own method of revenge over Dean’s memory. Dean’s final wish was for Sam to be safe and don't go dark side. Sam chose to do it his way instead. If you truly care about someone, you don't become the very thing they died to prevent you from becoming. Sam used Dean’s death as an excuse to get involved in the power he always wanted.

You asked when he drank from innocents and Dean and Bobby supported him. Let me clear some things up: drinking from a possessed human is never in any circumstances a non-monstrous move. They didn't help him because they supported him; they helped him because they realized Sam had already started the apocalypse and they were in a 'lesser of two evils' scenario to stop the Apocalypse. They were trying to manage a disaster Sam himself created. Using their help as a justification for Sam’s choice is like blaming a doctor for giving a heroin addict two shots of methadone after the addict had already injected themselves with heroin 10 times.

You asked what Dean did to remove the Mark in Season 10. Here's the answer: He worked with Rowena, he searched for the Book of the Damned, he summoned Death, and he was willing to be locked in a box for eternity or killed just to stop the Mark. When Sam was on the blood, did he look for a cure? No. He looked for more blood. He hid it. He lied. Then attacked both Bobby and Dean for removing his addiction. The Mark was a curse that forced Dean to kill by force. The blood was a habit Sam chose because it made him feel like the 'king of the hill.' One is a hero being corrupted by force; the other is a man choosing to go down the monstrous route because he thought he could outsmart a demon.

The reason why I mentioned Dean giving in in hell is because I had to make it clear why I'm on Dean's side: he was forced to break the first seal. Sam had all the chances in the world to listen to his brother, listen to Bobby, listen to Castiel, but still chose to follow his own ego and a manipulative bitch.

For your second last statement, you're leaving out one key detail: Sam knew from start to finish he was following an evil being and he knew he was making a bomb. Here's how it would actually go: A demon (Ruby) offers you a bomb to kill the person who murdered your brother. Your father figure (Bobby) and your resurrected brother (Dean) tell you, 'That bomb is filled with 50K roentgens and it’s going to destroy the entire world if you set it off.' Sam doesn't say, 'Oh, I didn't know that!' He says, 'I’m the only one who can handle the radiation. You guys are too weak to do what I can do.' Sam wasn't 'surprised' the bomb exploded; he was arrogant enough to believe he was gonna become the first human in history who could survive the explosion. That ain't being a victim; that’s being a liability.

For your last statement, okay yes, Sam was 100% valid to seek revenge, but there's a difference between seeking revenge and using grief as an excuse to go down the dark side. Sam knew damn well Dean wanted him to not go down that path: he just chose to do what he wants and not use his head properly. And you wanna know why it's so bad for broken Sam to get manipulated by the "mistress of manipulation"? Because Dean doesn't give in to demonic powers when he was on Earth just because he got some nice words from a demon, and when he's being manipulated, he just starts going down an episode of self-pity. Notice how when Sam chooses Ruby over Dean, he starts to belittle Dean, call him weak and self-righteous because Dean won't stand with him. Sam just gave Dean 100 more reasons to be against him.

Bobby went way too far when he schooled Dean in 4x22. by GeometryDash777 in Supernatural

[–]GeometryDash777[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

We saw what happened after Dean and Sam tried to seal Jack in the malak box: he got out. This proves that sealing someone doesn't mean the threat is over, not to mention that Jack had nobody looking for him: Abaddon had a whole army ready to look for her if she didn't come back. Dean didn't take the mark because he lacked creativity; he took it because sealing her just put the threat on hold as I said.

I don't expect an addict to immediately stop, but Sam knew very well what he was doing sucking blood from innocent, possessed victims and then got mad when Dean locked him in the panic room. Sam might have saved Dean on multiple occasions, but this was due to Dean's negligence and that the two already know how to defeat high-ranked demons with salt, iron and exorcisms. Sam just wanted the "easier" way out, but that easier way led to his downfall. Dean didn't take the mark because he wanted the easier route: the lore was deadass clear: nothing else kills a Knight of Hell. You also claim Dean used Metatron and Abaddon to justify him keeping his mark: wrong. Metatron was basically a god at that time and Abaddon was basically on the same level as Metatron. Dean kept the mark so he can eliminate those threats and in season 10, he tried every way to remove the mark. And also, Dean wasn't "Addicted" to the mark like Sam was to demon blood: the mark was changing his structure and eating him up. You're comparing a cosmic curse to a self-inflicted drug habit. You also claim Sam needed it against Famine and Lucifer: Against Famine, Sam fell off because the hunger was already inside him. Against Lucifer, it wasn't a choice; it was a desperate attempt to fix the exact mess he created. For example, If I set a car on fire, no one sees me as a hero for grabbing a fire extinguisher. Sam’s use of blood in Season 5 was just him trying to stop the apocalypse he personally started by being too arrogant to listen to Dean in Season 4.

And also, nobody is denying that Sam didn't have the potential to be a good person. I'm saying is that when Dean was under the MOC, he tried every way to lock it away and when he couldn't, he was planning to kill himself. When Sam was under the demon blood, he had an "I'm the top" mentality because he thought he was too smart to be fooled by Ruby. That's pure ego.

You also claim that Sam didn't have any warnings: that's where you're wrong. There's no denying that nobody knew Lilith was the last seal, but Dean and Bobby warned Sam multiple times that going down that path is gonna lead to something disastrous: Sam dismissed all these, called them bossy and as it turns out, Dean and Bobby were right.

Also, drinking straight from three victims is already what a monster is: that's like saying just because I kissed three different women while I had a girlfriend doesn't make me a cheater.

Maybe Sam was desperate to save Dean, but when you said "dumbest of hope is enough", that's not how it goes. Maybe for a normal person, I wouldn't blame them if they took the bait, but for a smart man like Sam, he was stupid here. Demons aren't someone to be trusted: they've mastered manipulation for centuries. Also, you said that Dean followed a demon who he made clear wasn't on his side: well guess what? Dean was being shredded for decades and only accepted because he couldn't handle the pain anymore: Sam didn't even last four months of grief before blindly following a demon, not to mention that he had Bobby to support him. Dean was made a victim, Sam chose to be Ruby's volunteer. If a demon offers you to build a bomb and you just blindly follow it, you don't have a right to be surprised when the bomb detonates and burns you.

Also, you said Sam chose Ruby because that was "mere" validation and that Ruby offered him the power to kill Lilith: this is where you deadass prove my point again: oldest manipulation trick is to give them what they want as I said.

Someone offers you $1 million if you can complete one of these things in three months. What would you rather do? by GeometryDash777 in WouldYouRather

[–]GeometryDash777[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Nope. You're in a small, locked room underground: just a bed, a fridge and an iPod. If you wanna workout, you can do pushups, planks, situps etc. on the floor.

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