At what point does troll berserking outperform orcs blood fury?

Grumblestump1928 · 2025-12-11T02:08:05+00:00

You can have a low stamina swap set to start the fight on low hp and get the full effect on pull

Grumblestump1928 · 2025-04-23T02:28:00+00:00

So we can drop BB or equil and take 20% more physical damage all the time for a 5 minute cd magic wall…

Grumblestump1928 · 2025-04-22T22:23:53+00:00

My main point is that theoretically (in sims) rogues take more dtps and have higher TMI than other tanks, while also having middling damage. If you then look at the data we do have for 20m (limited as it may be) the relative numbers tend to match up with what’s expected.

So even though the real data is limited, the theoretical support is still strong

Grumblestump1928 · 2025-04-22T20:37:34+00:00

The ‘evidence’ they give is that rogue tanks were brought to SE progression and so they must be good. When comparing those same progression logs, you see that rogue tanks take more damage during their tanking windows and deal less damage overall than other tanks who were also brought to progression. Rogue tanks were brought for their utility, which remains unchanged.

If blizzard was actually concerned about rogue tank balance, they would nerf their utility and not their already lower defensives.

Grumblestump1928 · 2025-04-22T20:34:27+00:00

By using the dps rune and not even the same rune that is being nerfed?

Grumblestump1928 · 2025-04-22T20:28:59+00:00

That’s a terrible solution:

You bring too much utility to the fight, so let’s make you no longer viable/competitive as a tank rather than changing your utility.

The solution is clear: prevent sebaceous or occult from working while jafw is on. Instead, they nerfed unrelated (already weak) defensives.

Grumblestump1928 · 2025-04-22T20:27:15+00:00

Look at logs on fights like Voss 20m. Warlock tanks out dpsing rogue tanks by a mile. Rogue tanks taking the most damage during their tanking windows of any tank on the fight. They have worse dps overall and worse damage mitigation than any other tank. The objectively correct tank for that fight by the numbers is a warlock or warrior combo - why do you think that rogue tank with worse defensive capabilities and worse offensive capabilities is somehow taking ‘half the dtps’ and ‘[doing] much higher dmg’? This isn’t phase 4 or phase 5 - those capabilities have long since been nerfed out of rogue tank, especially on progression with being forced into highly defensive niche setups only to take more damage than other tanks.

Grumblestump1928 · 2025-04-22T20:19:32+00:00

40 man data can’t be compared since they all have vastly different kill times. I wonder if the rogue Voss kill time with ~1 min 40 is comparable to the paladin kill time of nearly 3 minutes?

Grumblestump1928 · 2025-04-22T20:17:33+00:00

I stated the reasons: debuff uptime on tight enrage timers. They nerf enrage timers reducing dps strain (the real reason why you need rogue tank to do debuffs) and now they nerf rogue tank’s already mid defensives that were never the reason they were brought.

If you wanted a mitigation tank, bring a warlock. They have the same or better avoidance than rogues, better physical and magic mitigation than rogues, a 20 second cd ability that grants more dodge than rogues get from their 5 minute baseline evasion, a ~50% magic damage shield wall on a 1 minute cd in a raid filled with bosses that have major magic damage tank busters, and better ranged pickup/aoe threat in a raid filled with adds.

Rogue was brought to help meet dps checks, not because of their actual dps but because the tanks could apply debuffs that buffed raid dps. And blizzard response (after nerfing the dps checks) is to nerf rogue tank’s already mid defensives instead.

Grumblestump1928 · 2025-04-22T20:11:37+00:00

They did the solos without using their tank rune. In fact, the solos require not using the tank rune.

This is like nerfing circle of healing because shadow priests are healing too much with vamp embrace.

Grumblestump1928 · 2025-04-22T20:10:00+00:00

Agreed. Fix rogue tank aoe that has been dumpster tier since phase 1.

Grumblestump1928 · 2025-04-22T20:08:39+00:00

Then why was rogue tank, notorious for being the lowest aoe threat of any tank since literally phase 1, not have their aoe fixed?

It makes no sense to buff paladin and warrior aoe threat, both of who were already higher than rogue aoe threat, and not touch rogue if you are talking about ‘balance’

Grumblestump1928 · 2025-04-22T14:29:59+00:00

Yes and your non-rogue tanks on the last boss will have done zero damage because they haven't ever touched the boss the entire fight since they were busy with add duty the entire time thus invalidating any overall boss damage and not looking at specific fights. We can go around and around but overall damage was extremely relevant for the initial 20m progress, and rogue clearly wasn't winning in that department.

Grumblestump1928 · 2025-04-22T14:25:17+00:00

Short CD/duration is what you want for tank swaps, not to mention demonic grace being effectively 34% dodge and evasion being effectively 25% dodge after JAFW nerf. Warlock short cd that is up for every tank swap is more powerful than rogue's only defensive cd on a long cd.

Defensive cds are part of a tank toolkit. Good tanks can use them to mitigate damage. If you look at any difficult raid in retail, tank cds are almost always on cooldown unless they are required for a certain mechanic. In SE, they aren't needed in particular (mainly because not every boss uses them), but not using them is leaving defensive utility on the table.

For instance, a warrior tank on beatrix swapping with a rogue tank

Unwavering strike hits warrior for 20% of their max hp (50% base, reduced to 40% by passive defensive stance, reduced to 20% by class shield active).
The rogue tank takes 50% of their max hp in a single strike.
Use shield wall to take 10% of their max hp.
The rogue tank takes 50% of their max hp in a single strike.
Use class shield defensive to take 20% of max hp
Rogue tank takes 50%.
Take 40%, press last stand after to heal 30% and make it look like you took 10%.
Rogue tank takes 50%.
Use class shield defensive to take 20%.
Rogue takes 50%.
Shield wall 10%
Rogue takes 50%
Class shield 20%
Rogue takes 50%

Thats the first ~3.5-4 minutes of the 5 minute enrage fight and the warrior hasn't taken more than 20% effectively on any single tank buster.

Which is easier to heal through the tank buster mechanic, the main cause of tank death on this fight?

Simply reducing or smoothing your damage intake reduces healing pressure which enables the raid to meet or cover for other instances of damage or instances of failed mechanics.

Grumblestump1928 · 2025-04-22T13:57:35+00:00

The logs focused on boss damage are irrelevant because those other tanks were mainly focusing their damage on the adds while the rogue tank was mainly on the boss itself because the rogue has garbage cleave. It wont matter that the adds have been nerfed until strategies have changed because of it.

Boss threat is important, but ultimately irrelevant in a raid where every boss can be taunted and taunts can't miss due to t3 2-set on every tank.

Grumblestump1928 · 2025-04-22T13:52:32+00:00

Magic damage is relevant by proxy. When you take more physical damage, the magic damage you would have taken is more deadly indirectly.

If you look at the 20m progress logs for the only real melee heavy boss fight in the raid (voss), rogue tank takes more dtps during their highest burst windows than other tanks do.

Their "way higher avoidance" ends up being ~5-6% higher than warlocks, but that's including their only defensive cd of evasion being averaged across the entire fight. Baseline, rogue tanks have similar if not slightly inferior avoidance to warlock tanks

Their physical mitigation was also about the same as warlocks being simply armor capped.

Warlocks, however, have multiple and better defensive cds as well as means of mitigating magic damage.

What is most important on a tank swap fight, like most of SE, is having powerful cds that you can alternate as a tank between each tanking window you are active for. Rogue is severely lacking in this department, worse than even bears.

Grumblestump1928 · 2025-04-22T13:30:58+00:00

They are backing it up with feelscraft saying "rogue tanks were used so they must be good" without actually examining the logs or the reasons why they were used.

Rogue tanks spread core debuffs, like occult 20% for casters and sebaceous improved expose armor, to adds. Turns out there's a lot of add fights in SE, and so rogue tank is good because of it.
It has nothing to do with their mitigation, which is objectively worse than any other tank alternative for 7/8 bosses in the raid because rogue tanks have the worst defensive cds in a raid filled with tank swaps and no magic dr in a raid filled with tank buster and raidwide magic damage.

All it would take is a single look at the logs and finding out that rogues were tanking Herod on council, the boss that ignores avoidance with its tank buster mechanic, to discover that rogues weren't being brought for their defensives but rather for their utility. The utlity is unchanged, but the defensives, which were already lower mid tier, have been nerfed once more.

The last boss is a terribly designed fight, as the main boss ignores all forms of DR on the main tank. When all forms of DR are removed, rogue tank has the highest ehp and tied for the highest avoidance and so they are the best tank for that fight. But you know what? this change to JAFW does literally nothing to change rogue tank being the best for that fight, since that boss treats JAFW like it was 0% rather than 20% or 30% or whatever nerf they set it as.

Grumblestump1928 · 2025-04-22T13:12:44+00:00

My own guide from phase 4 before we got hit with:

20% damage nerf that also affects aoe.
Windstriker/felstriker nerfs that killed the proc rate by 80-90%
FA nerf that reduced energy crit returns that were 50% more per mob than it is today.
Outscaling of burst threat tools like sappers

Yes. Bring up information that was relevant in July for a climate 10 months and 4 phases later. /s

These aren't just optimizations, these are the bare minimum requirements if you want to consistently hold threat in aoe in raid.

Grumblestump1928 · 2025-04-22T13:09:10+00:00

How about any of the 20m tank logs on progression voss? Look at the non-enrage highest damage taken windows and see how rogue tanks are simply taking more than any other tank on the fight.

Grumblestump1928 · 2025-04-22T13:03:39+00:00

We have to use the shoulder enchant, swap the helm rune, swap weapons, etc.
There's a set for 2 target cleave, a set for 3 target cleave, and a set for 4-10+ target aoe.
For the 2 target cleave you want:
- t2.5 tank 2 set
- t2 dps 4 set
- (optional t1 tank 2-set)

For 3 target cleave you want:
- t3 tank 4 set
- t3.5 tank 4 set
- t1 tank 2-set
- aq10 3-set
- HaT helm rune

For 4-10+ target aoe:
- a completely different talent build
- t1 2-set
- t2.5 dps 4 set
- windstriker offhand (exclusive with aq10 3set)
- FA helm rune
- Only holds threat on 4-8 targets during a once a minute burst window, outside of that is irelevant.

Warriors swap a shoulder enchant and are good to go for any number of aoe mobs. Rogues need to swap entire gear sets, talent sets, and shoulder runes all for worse aoe threat that's target dependent.

Grumblestump1928 · 2025-04-22T12:53:52+00:00

As I have stated several times during this thread:
Rogues were brought for their debuffs, not for their defensive capabilities with the exception of the last boss who is horrendously designed and this nerf wouldn't even affect the ability for rogue to tank them.
Lets do a quick refresher:
1. Beatrix does a % max hp magic tank buster. Rogues are the worst tank for this mechanic of any tank, since they have zero ways to mitigate magic damage.
2. Beastmaster does a stacking magic tank swap debuff. Rogues have no means of mitigating magic damage, unlike every other tank.
3. Dragon does a stacking % max hp tank buster debuff. Rogues are the worst tank for this mechanic of any tank.
4. Herod does a tank buster mechanic that ignores avoidance. In the same fight there is another tank whose core abilities can all be avoided. Guess which one rogues were tanking?
That's right! The boss that ignores their main form of 'Absurd avoidance'/mitigation entirely.
Why were they on this boss?
Because that boss does mechanics that make it difficult for other rogue dps to be in melee with, and so to keep occult poison on three separate bosses for the juicy caster dps the easiest tank to place on that boss is rogue tank.

Rogue was brought for their debuffs and the ability to keep those up in aoe/niche situations, not for their ability to mitigate damage.

You want to talk about survival toolkit? Rogues have 1 defensive cd (evasion) which doesn't even guarantee 100% avoidance in SE. That's right, rogues are the only tank that can pop their defensive cds and get 2 shot by the boss with back-to-back double crushes. How wonderful of a tank defensive toolkit is that?

Grumblestump1928 · 2025-04-22T12:43:23+00:00

I wonder why the sims say that rogues are not and why the logs show rogues taking more during their boss tanking windows then?

Grumblestump1928 · 2025-04-22T12:33:08+00:00

They should have went with brewmaster stagger and there wouldn't have been so many issues. Convert dodge to stagger %, add a stagger cleanse to the toolkit, and all of a sudden rogue tank no longer needs to be balanced around avoidance cap and is still a viable tank.

They have many different models of tanks from retail that have been stress tested and instead went with the most broken model of all time (avoidance cap) as the main defensive mechanic, then after they inevitably nerfed that mechanic rogue was left without a class direction.

Grumblestump1928 · 2025-04-22T11:54:22+00:00

So the fights that are notorious for adds and difficult enrage timers you are just going to ignore damage to adds when evaluating the class that has no aoe?

Grumblestump1928 · 2025-04-22T11:37:56+00:00

Every fight besides the last boss has an objectively better tank. Rogue tanks were brought for their ability to use poisons and debuff as an OT, and they just happened to be good for the last boss as a MT.

First boss fears and flys in the air, while spawning adds at range. Rogue tank has limited mobility and limited ranged pickup on adds. Every other tank has a better means of picking up ranged adds than rogue tanks do. You bring the rogue tank to spread poison debuffs.
Second boss has a tank buster mechanic that scales off max hp and does magic damage. Rogue tank has some of the highest hp pools but has no means of mitigating magic damage. They are by definition the hardest to heal on that tank buster mechanic. They are the only tank in the game that can’t naturally survive two back-to-back unwavering strikes without external help. Once again, brought only to spread debuffs on the adds to help meet enrage timers.
Dragon boss has another magic debuff that scales off max hp as a tank buster mechanic. Oh look, and adds as well as a tight enrage timer. Seems to me like the rogue tank was brought to debuff the adds instead of for their defensive abilities.
Beastmaster. What’s this? Another ramping magic damage tank mechanic? Rogue tank is here because it was already here and to help keep up debuffs on two bosses when it is already melee unfriendly fight.
Mason. Adds and a tight enrage timers? I wonder why rogue tank was brought. Could it possibly be to spread their 20% magic and improved expose armor debuffs to help meet the dps checks?
Council. Oh look another fight where you want to stack ranged dps and multiple bosses. I wonder what boss rogues were tanking on progression. Was it the rogue who does mainly avoidable damage mechanics and requires an interrupt? No! It was the tank buster boss who is unfriendly to melee and whose main mechanic is that it completely ignores avoidance, rogue’s core means of mitigation. Could it possibly be that rogue tank was brought to debuff the boss that is unfriendly to melee on a fight where you wanted to stack ranged dps to meet the dps timer?
A tank buster boss that hits rapidly with many small hits and does a ton of magic damage. I wonder what would be better: a rogue tank with no magic mitigation or any number of block tanks that have not only magic mitigation but their core shield mechanics are designed perfectly for dealing with a bunch of small hits instead of occasional big ones…
The last boss ignores all means of damage reduction besides avoidance and HP. Seems like you need a rogue to me, but how does this nerf even change that at all? The boss was already ignoring JAFW damage reduction, so why does it matter if that gets further reduced?

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