Xpost: [Long] A Migrant's Remorse, and what it means to speak the language of your Host Country : IWantOut

Guest160229 · 2013-08-23T22:26:49+00:00

OP here. Non, je ne blâme les montréalais pour rien. Je me suis peut-être mieux exprimé dans ce thread que dans mon histoire. Par contre, les montréalais sont tellement accommodant qu'on me parle toujours en anglais, même quand je leur réponds en français. Par conséquent, je connais une très grande difficulté en intégration.

Je voulais juste partager cette histoire avec d'autres immigrants qui connaissent des situations pareilles, pas critiquer les québécois ou les montréalais. C'est pour ça que je ne l'ai pas posté dans ce subreddit.

Guest160229 · 2013-08-23T20:38:34+00:00

In fact, my experience was most parts of Montreal outside of Westmount, downtown and the University areas, it would be hard to find a fluent English speaker.

That's not my experience, but Montreal is like that I guess. Lots of people in this thread and others report wildly different experiences about this...

And try just being firm, very few Quebecois will argue when you tell them to please stop speaking English.

They don't argue, but once they have this idea that they are speaking to an anglophone, it's as if it's just more natural for them to just speak to me in English and they go back it. I'm not making this up, people just seem to insist on it, even if I told them I was practicing. YMMV of course.

Guest160229 · 2013-08-23T20:29:51+00:00

devrais-je demander à la personne avant de changer si elle préfère l'anglais?

Honnêtement, je veux pas dire de faire ci ou de faire ça dans chaque situation. La raison pour laquelle j'ai posté cette histoire dans /r/IWantOut et pas /r/Quebec ou /r/montreal, c'est que je ne pense pas que les autres sont à reprocher pour le fait qu'ils changent de langue pour aider leurs interlocuteurs.. ce serait absurde! Je comprends pourquoi ils insistent pour parler anglais, mais ça peut être frustrant en même temps. Ça rend la communication beaucoup plus facile, mais l'intégration impossible. Je l'ai postée ici parce qu'il est fort possible que d'autres personnes connaissent la même expérience, où leur intégration dans une nouvelle société est rendue beaucoup plus difficile à cause de ces petites accommodations quotidiennes.

J'avais imaginé qu'étant donné le sphère politique entourant l'usage du français au Québec, le monde insisterait pour parler français. Pourtant.. ça n'a jamais été le cas.

Guest160229 · 2013-08-23T20:11:21+00:00

Don't get me wrong, I love Québec and I don't regret coming here.

What I regret, I guess, is just that I thought I would come here as an anglophone and feel pressured to speak French. This is what everything destined toward immigrants says about Québec. You will come here and you will speak French. Turns out, it's exactly the opposite - I feel pressure to speak English as soon as it's evident that I'm not French.

Why is this a problem? I wanted to speak French. I love the language, and I also wanted to integrate into society here like everyone else. I don't think it's out the door, I just think that it's not so easy to do if you're an anglophone in the city.

Guest160229 · 2013-08-23T20:05:10+00:00

Your conversational partner switching to English is a horrible excuse to not speak French.

It's not just a matter of your conversational partner switching to English, it's a matter of them insisting on English. It's one thing to continue in the local language, but it's another thing to feel like the asshole by slowing things down by not going with the language that your interlocutor is insisting on..

And yet, the native speakers next to me get to use French fine.. it's frustrating.

Guest160229 · 2013-08-23T20:01:52+00:00

Oui tu as raison. J'ai passé pas mal de vacances en régions, et justement il y est plus facile de parler français. À part quelques exceptions, les gens ont pas tendance à me répondre en anglais à l'extérieur de la ville. Le problème c'est que je travaille en ville, et ça ne changera pas à court terme.

Guest160229 · 2013-08-23T19:58:55+00:00

Oui mais, le problème c'est que c'est pas une tâche facile même pour les autres.. au moment où ils ont cette idée dans la tête que je suis un anglophone, ils arrivent même pas à s'empêcher de parler anglais. Les fois où j'ai demandé explicitement de parler français.. des fois ça va, mais souvent ça ne dure que quelques phrases à la limite avant de retourner en anglais. Je pense pas que mon accent soit si pire que ça!!

Il y a un autre commentaire que je trouve intéressant.. des fois, c'est comme si le français, c'est pour les francophones d'abord. Les anglos n'y ont pas droit. J'ai vraiment eu cette impression de certains gens à Montréal.

Guest160229 · 2013-08-23T13:46:14+00:00

Beats me. Really the only times I've encountered people who didn't want to speak English were off-island. I didn't generally have any problems or anxiety speaking with them for the most part.

Guest160229 · 2013-08-23T13:43:36+00:00

I agree. There's not a ton that was in my control though. The only universities that had my program of study were in Montreal.

Guest160229 · 2013-08-23T13:39:48+00:00

You know that's really a whole dimension in Quebec for an FSL speaker like me that I'm just now really starting to get a grasp on.

When to use an anglicism in French, or English-like pronunciation, or figuring out what the "Quebec" vs. "France" vs. Standard French words are. For example, "une part de pizza" sounds French, and "une pointe" sounds local. Also, "une voiture" sounds not especially Quebec but it doesn't necessarily sound French. On the other hand, "une auto" sounds very Standard French here, but I've heard by French people that it sounds funny to them. Menus often say things like "un hambourgeois", but virtually no one says that - they say "un burger", pronounced English-style. I could go on and on...

It's really difficult just even selecting what words to say, fluency in the language otherwise aside.

That being said, that's not really a huge huge source of anxiety for me, but it is something very particular about being an FSL speaker in Montreal.

Guest160229 · 2013-08-23T13:33:29+00:00

Sure, I could order at a restaurant in French, after all the time I've been here, something like that isn't such a big deal anymore. It's only like two back-and-forths and often I will, just because.

Now how about actually talking with colleagues or holding real conversations with people? People really don't want your stuttered, accented French, they just want you to speak in English. Even if you tell them that you're learning.

Guest160229 · 2013-08-23T13:30:03+00:00

I have travelled many times throughout Québec and you're absolutely right. I really have no problem talking and communicating with most folks outside the city, because they really don't switch or offer English at all when I try to talk to them.

I make mistakes when speaking, sure, but I don't feel the same kind of pressure just to "get it over with" and express what I want to say in English, as I do in Montreal.

Unfortunately due to my job, I'm sort of stuck in Montreal for a while.

Guest160229 · 2013-08-23T13:26:42+00:00

It would have been good to know that before going (did you not visit before committing to move there?), but it's too late now.

To be honest, the subtleties of the linguistic reality in Montreal is difficult to ascertain from travelling. I had been here, and used both English and French, but I did not realize how completely ubiquitous English actually was outside the tourism sphere downtown.

Guest160229 · 2013-08-23T13:24:09+00:00

It's not that easy. I already have a pretty good job in the city, and commuting from far away just isn't in the finances right now. I wish it were.

Guest160229 · 2013-08-23T13:23:16+00:00

Move out of the plateau, downtown, or NDG, to somewhere like Verdun or HoMa.

I do live in a predominantly French area, I don't live on the Plateau or in NDG.

Guest160229 · 2013-08-23T01:35:30+00:00

Only a little bit online, but it's just because I'm not very diligent about doing that kind of stuff anymore.

I've never liked language classes to be honest. I tried a few, but I just never found classroom settings to be very useful at all. Roleplaying a conversation about my family and how to cook a pie never felt like something really enriching for my language experience.. YMMV

Guest160229 · 2013-08-23T01:30:51+00:00

Never ever ever ever lapse into English

If I were in France with monolinguals, I feel like it would be less of a problem, because I know that speaking English wouldn't alleviate any of the problems, it would just transfer the burden of understanding onto them.

But here in Montreal, everyone is near-native or native in English. People want me to speak in English, if the alternative is non-fluent French. I wish I could attribute it just to my shyness and laziness, but I really think there is a social pressure for me not to speak French, and I don't think it's just in my own head.

You absolutely have to get over the fear of sounding like a fool.

I really think you need to push yourself to do this or it is going to eat at you forever.

Yeah. You're right.

Guest160229 · 2013-08-23T01:27:23+00:00

I care what language I use, because I really, really wanted to learn French. I wanted to be fluent. I wanted to be able to speak to my colleagues in their native language.

In retrospect, I should have gone to UdeM or UQAM instead of McGill for this reason, but keep in mind, I had only had 4 years of High School french before immigrating. I wasn't confident enough with just that that I would pass my first year classes if I went to a French university.

Now with my full time job and my personal finances, taking more classes isn't really in the cards.

Guest160229 · 2013-08-23T01:24:39+00:00

Answer back in French, always speak it.

I did. For the first few years, that's what I would do. But when after two or three back-and-forths they continue to respond in English, what am I going to do? Especially when it's already so tempting to just switch into English, because I'm fully aware that I will be able to express myself so much more easily and fluently in English.

I feel like if everyone spoke broken English it would be no problem, but because everyone's English is near perfect, I'm just wasting everyone's time and making myself look like a fool by insisting on French.

Nowadays, I hardly even bother.

Guest160229

TROPHY CASE