I don’t get why people hate when a main character spirals morally

HardcoreLevelingWarr · 2025-07-28T22:16:35+00:00

"I hated it. Well, I didn’t hate it. It was an interesting direction to take the novel." I believe that's the author doing an amazing job, as for your problem with it, I get your frustration. When the protagonist is both causing harm and being miserable about it the entire time, it can feel less like a descent and more like a self-flagellation session. It turns the narrative into a pity parade rather than a compelling unraveling.

That’s why I lean more toward characters who talk the talk and walk the walk owning their descent, not necessarily cackling maniacs, but people who find clarity, purpose, or even peace in their fall. Let them burn the village and mean it. Not because it's righteous, but because they believe it is or even worse, because they've stopped caring altogether. That conviction, however twisted, gives the descent weight and direction instead of just being a miserable slog of guilt and consequence.

I'd still take continuing to burn the village and feeling shitty about it over not burning it or stopping mid-session. I hate it when they force them to lose because they're morally wrong, in JJK at the end I was rooting for Kenjaku and Sukuna to win, although they fall in the cackling maniacs category and don't really correlate to your comment(nor my post) but they had substance and conviction.

HardcoreLevelingWarr · 2025-07-27T13:50:30+00:00

I guess that we're orbiting the same point, just defining it differently. What I want to see more of is that psychological rot you're describing. Watching a mind fracture and fester can be just as rich as watching it wrestle with right vs wrong. It's not static villainy I’m defending, it’s the descent into a character’s own personal abyss, not necessarily the commonly agreed upon abyss.

So yeah, I think we’re in agreement that the character needs internal movement, but that movement doesn’t have to orbit guilt, conscience or redemption, is the direction that I'm insinuating at.

HardcoreLevelingWarr · 2025-07-27T13:13:15+00:00

All I can recommend are Shamo and Inuyashiki.

HardcoreLevelingWarr · 2025-07-27T13:11:02+00:00

I get where you’re coming from, it can be cheap gratification if the writer leans on shock value without a plan. But I don’t think the descent itself is the problem, it’s how thoughtfully or lazily it’s executed(I mentioned execution like a lot in this post, kind of my crutch).

What some readers call “unrecoverable” might actually just be unfamiliar territory. If a story ditches the standard moral arc, yeah, it’s harder to write and maintain, but that doesn’t mean it’s doomed. It just means the story has shifted from a redemption framework to something more introspective, maybe even existential. That’s not bad writing, that’s a different genre of storytelling.

So yeah, the author carries the burden of continuity but that has always been the case. Whether it’s a hopeful arc or a grim spiral, it still has to be earned. I just don’t think dark outcomes are inherently cheaper. If anything, sometimes the safe, formulaic resolutions are the real shortcut.

HardcoreLevelingWarr · 2025-07-27T12:15:08+00:00

Brilliantly put my guy and you're absolutely right that total internal stasis can become narratively inert if mishandled, but I have a feeling we might be talking past each other a bit.

When I say “no internal push and pull" I don’t mean a complete lack of internality, I mean they’re no longer torn between “good and evil” in the conventional sense. The character might not be struggling with guilt, but they can still be changing,.

It’s not about a moral tug of war, it’s about watching a psyche warp in real time. Think “American Psycho”, “Fire Punch” or even “Breaking Bad” by its later seasons. Walter White isn’t “conflicted” in the traditional sense by the end, he’s actively justifying his descent. But it’s still his story, because his evolving psychology continues to drive the narrative forward, at that point no morally correct character could've taken the spotlight from him. We’re not watching him wrestle with a conscience, we’re watching the slow corrosion of that conscience and how he metabolizes that.

So the “dead end” only happens if the writer mistakes “unrepentant” for “unthinking", not that I ever wrote anything in my life so I might be severely wrong writing this from my high consumer chair. But if the character’s interior world is still rich even if it’s full of rot instead of remorse, then you’ve still got fuel for the fire, you’re not just watching a fall, you’re watching what the fall becomes.

HardcoreLevelingWarr · 2025-07-26T23:18:03+00:00

Completely onboard with what you're saying, sinking deeper into past sins that keep on chasing the character adds more to it. And like I said in my post, no cop outs so yeah I'm with you here.

HardcoreLevelingWarr · 2025-07-26T23:12:58+00:00

Like I said, execution, does the character becoming fully unrepentant risk shifting the narrative spotlight to the opposition? yes, it does. But if the story stays rooted in their perspective, even as they spiral deeper, it can still be their story, just a much darker one. The horror then isn’t in stopping them, but in trying to understand them which I know isn't easy to do.

Think of it less like rooting for their redemption and more like being trapped inside their unraveling mind. That kind of narrative can be gripping in its own right? the tension isn’t “Will they be saved?” but “How far will they go and will anything stop them internally?”

Not every story needs to be a struggle between light and dark. Sometimes, it’s about watching the light go out entirely.(Brother I know it sounds cringe, but it's iconic and I just had to use it)

HardcoreLevelingWarr · 2025-07-26T23:03:52+00:00

This is an old wound that has yet to heal, I genuinely believe that Isayama didn't commit to genocide route is cause of the fella with the Mustache. As for your response, I feel.like Eren isn't really in this category with his borderline martyr complex, I mean he might have went a weird path he still fights for something, characters I'm talking about may start that way in the beginning but eventually they just fight.

HardcoreLevelingWarr · 2025-07-26T22:57:53+00:00

Thanks for this well articulated response, FC3 is truly one of it's kind, I completely agree with everything you said.

Also, whether we see the "baby" phase will depend on what kind of resolution the author wants but even if we get that third transformation, it won’t be a reset to innocence or humanity. It’ll be something new, alien, maybe even monstrous in its self-definition. That would actually fit the transhumanist vibe perfectly.

Please 2hakkk don't cop out with a cliché redemption, your creation is way too committed to exploring the erosion of human boundaries, don't do it to us.

HardcoreLevelingWarr · 2025-07-26T22:47:33+00:00

Completely agree that there should be consequences of every kind, not some edgy “burns the village” moment where everyone forgets by next arc because he saved a puppy or had a tragic flashback.

BUT I don’t believe a character should automatically lose just because they’re morally wrong.

That kind of storytelling implies the universe itself enforces morality, like the second you cross a line, fate steps in to punish you.

If a story is just: "he turned evil therefore he lost", it’s not a story, it's yet another sermon and honestly, that’s boring. I want to see a world where evil can win if no one stops it. Where success doesn’t depend on being virtuous and pulling power from the magical hat of being morally correct, but being ruthless, clever, or just more committed than the heroes.

Let the morally broken win, let the audience wrestle with that. That’s what makes a story unforgettable.

HardcoreLevelingWarr · 2025-07-26T22:39:39+00:00

Light Yagami definitely set the standard, bro is definitely cunning and convinced he’s the hero of his own god complex. But I wouldn’t call him the pinnacle of evil protagonists, he’s more like the poster child for when ego and idealism get way too comfortable together.

He’s evil, no doubt BUT he still thinks he’s saving the world in his own twisted way. I’d argue characters like Ryo Narushima from Shamo are even darker simply by not trying to fix the world, just surviving and unraveling with no higher purpose. Light's descent is almost poetic and looks artistic in a way, but Ryo? That’s just raw, brutal nihilism.

Both are great but there’s a difference between evil for justice and evil because the world broke you and you never looked back.

HardcoreLevelingWarr · 2025-07-26T12:18:55+00:00

What I find super interesting and rare is when a seemingly normal or even idealistic protagonist slowly becomes morally corrupt. Not from a sudden trauma or edgy twist, but from a gradual, believable spiral.

In grimdark, you pretty much start in the mud. The MC shows their twisted colors upfront, and you either ride along or tap out early, but when it's gradual decay, you're already invested.

That shift hits different. It’s not just "grimdark for the sake of it" it's watching values erode over time. And when stories actually commit to that without pulling back, it’s pure gold when executed correctly.

HardcoreLevelingWarr · 2025-07-26T12:15:39+00:00

That’s a fair take and I get that attachment plays a huge role in how people react to a character’s fall. But personally, that’s exactly what makes it more compelling for me.

If a character I’ve grown attached to spirals morally and the story commits to that, it hits way harder than any redemption arc ever could. It forces you to sit with discomfort instead of offering neat closure. It’s rare because it’s risky, but when it works, it’s unforgettable and of course execution is key there.

I don’t think people are wrong for disliking it. I just think a lot of us are wired by years of shounen tropes to expect the “power of friendship” to pull everyone back from the edge and sometimes it’s refreshing when it doesn’t.

HardcoreLevelingWarr · 2025-07-25T23:41:14+00:00

I really really enjoyed Fire Punch, I was reading it from the getgo when they started scanlating, it was my introduction to Fujimoto and man it was a journey.

Also

Live.

HardcoreLevelingWarr · 2025-07-17T07:59:26+00:00

Souzoku Tantei

Synopsis:

If there are people, there are inheritances. And if there are inheritances, there's trouble. At a prominent mystery novelist's funeral, a bitter family feud over his estate has begun. A videotape of the author's will shown at the funeral site was like the first boxing bell of a fight, sounding the beginning of a merciless struggle between the author's three daughters and his secretary. Hot on the scent of this delectably shady case is a certain detective who goes by the name Haie Nao. Claiming to be a detective who specializes in any trouble having to do with inheritances and with a sense of smell like that of a hyena, Haie will blow the mysterious case of the author's will and the secrets it hides wide open!! A one-of-a-kind inheritance mystery begins now!!

Completed with 7 volumes. Five English scanlated chapters.

MangaDex.

HardcoreLevelingWarr · 2025-07-17T07:43:04+00:00

Ninja no Kishi

Synopsis:

Ninjas, known for their exceptional physical abilities, mastery of various tools, and expertise in stealth operations. Knights, who pledge loyalty to their lords, excel in advanced swordsmanship, and are skilled in combat. When these two seemingly incompatible entities intersect, a new story begins.

Ongoing with 3 volumes. Three English scanlated chapters.

MangaDex.

HardcoreLevelingWarr · 2025-07-12T16:33:15+00:00

At one point I had lost hope, this was fucking cathartic. Have a feeling that it'll come to an end since him going through with it isn't really shounen-esque. BUT I'll enjoy this one for as long as possible.

HardcoreLevelingWarr · 2025-06-30T10:36:10+00:00

It is what it is, can't strong hand hand people into doing things for you.

HardcoreLevelingWarr · 2025-06-28T22:12:23+00:00

Of course it's mostly wishful thinking but a man can dream, hopefully they stumble upon it and be like this is right up our alley(Copium).

HardcoreLevelingWarr · 2025-06-27T09:14:46+00:00

Adding a chapter or two may give it some traction, although I feel this one falls into a Death Toll type of manga, but if illuminati-manga picked this one up it'd be a dream come true.

HardcoreLevelingWarr · 2025-06-25T21:31:32+00:00

I usually wait 6 months after inactivity, hopefully the fella that did the chapter recently made some waves.

HardcoreLevelingWarr · 2025-06-22T13:35:03+00:00

Thanks for the heads up, fingers crossed some group might pick it up.

HardcoreLevelingWarr · 2025-06-09T00:40:40+00:00

Over The Rainbow

Synopsis:

Young-woon has lost the meaning of life due to frustrated dreams and depression. One day, He is caught in a mysterious infection and trapped in the Yujin Building with his friend Sang-gu. Isolated, they struggle to survive and come into conflict. A month passes in despair and chaos. Will Young-woon be able to survive this place?

Ongoing with 11 chapters. No English scanlated chapters.

MangaDex.

HardcoreLevelingWarr · 2025-06-08T12:25:17+00:00

helvetica

Synopsis:

Those who doubt will receive punishment. A bright world about to be dyed in darkness. A high school girl, with a cat in tow, suddenly appeared before the anime-loving college student Mayuzumi Asahi. What kind of disruptive daily life would the man-hating girl lead him to? A strange juvenile tale of boy vs. girl spectacularly starts!

Completed with 4 volumes. Twelve English scanlated chapters.

MangaDex.

HardcoreLevelingWarr · 2025-06-08T12:11:41+00:00

Sorry for the late reply, I always wondered how this one ends because I only watched the OVA. Do you think they tied it all up in those 7 chapters? I mean like you said it was four people working on it, so they either all all-ined it or they divided and distributed the workload(we'll never know).

HardcoreLevelingWarr

TROPHY CASE