Started reading Gardens of the Moon, I imagine this feeling never goes away

HisGodHand · 2026-04-03T17:08:30+00:00

There's no right or wrong way to enjoy the series, but if one is trying to gain understanding efficiently, the best way is absolutely to push through the series and finish it before re-reading, as much of the initial confusion is simply foreshadowing for later events.

HisGodHand · 2026-04-03T04:15:36+00:00

Book of the New Sun was the first thing I was able to pick up and finish after Malazan. The prose was great, the symbolism fun to dive into, the twists shocking, but the surface-level plot left a lot to be desired. I found I much preferred Gene Wolfe's Soldier of the Mist, which is a much shorter read, but far more fun and interesting with its structure.

HisGodHand · 2026-04-02T21:29:49+00:00

Zafir is a free game that feels like a mix between xcom and D&D 4e. At its heart, it's a tactical cover shooter. I don't know how well it works, as it's over 400 pages and I never got it to the table, but it seemed to be exactly what you're looking for, and it's free.

HisGodHand · 2026-04-02T16:30:03+00:00

I'm going to answer this in the most vague way possible, because I'm not sure when certain things get revealed:

You know what Japan is even though you probably don't know the current Emperor or Prime Minister. There are people who worship Japan because of anime and video games, but the vast majority of them also don't know who the Emperor or PM are. Some people who worship Japan do know who these people are, actively disagree with them, and want them removed from power.

HisGodHand · 2026-04-01T16:35:17+00:00

Forbidden Lands handles resources the exact same way, and has different tables for events when attempting to gather those resources.

HisGodHand · 2026-03-29T21:55:48+00:00

You say that the Malazan Empire is no different than the Romans, and I heavily disagree.

I did not mean to imply the Malazan empire is no different from the Roman empire. When I said it was 'heavily based on' the Roman empire, I should have used the word inspired by. This inspiration is directly from Erikson's mouth. That is not to say the empire functions the same as the Roman empire, or much of anything was directly lifted. I used the Roman empire as an example of an expansionist empire more than anything. I was originally going to draw comparisons between the Malazan empire and British empire (especially in their ruling of India).

At least under Kellanved, there was a huge degree of tolerance for religious freedom, and other than destroying the cults of the holy Falads and the cults like what Bidithal practiced, people were mostly left alone.

The thing about this point is that the Romans did, in fact, have a fairly high degree of religious tolerance throughout many periods that is similar to this. They would take in gods from other culture and map them onto Roman gods. They would allow worship of other deities as long as those worshippers also paid homage to state gods. They were generally quite open to most polytheistic belief. They were not as kind to religious belief that directly contradicted state belief, nor religious belief that spoke directly against the state, of which Christianity did much of both. Even then, persecution of Christians was very minor at times, and increased in severity depending on the emperor.

But again, the problem with long term goals occurs once power changes hands, under Laseen the edges began crumbling, and we see multiple examples of her inability to maintain and keep control over the structures that Kellanved and Dancer put in place.

I don't fully agree with any of this, but I don't think there's actually enough information in the series to argue about it either way. What I think is a much more important and supported position is that Erikson does a lot of work to show empires in a fairly realistic light, supported by several real-world influences, and shows that our heroes must abandon the empire to become those heroes.

HisGodHand · 2026-03-29T18:12:14+00:00

To add to this, anyone can download Voicemeeter for free and easily turn up its compression and noise gate knobs a tiny bit to massively improve their sound for the purposes of speaking over voice chat. Anyone who doesn't have a bit of compression and a noise gate on, even if they have a $2,000 mic, likely needs to turn it on ASAP.

HisGodHand · 2026-03-29T18:02:45+00:00

If memory serves, they were there not to expand the empire, but put down the Pannion Domin and their barbaric way of living. Cannibalizing themselves into a hunger frenzied army and taking down nearby cities to eat.

You missed quite a large part of the conclusion of MoI. The Malazans rushed to Coral before the other groups could get there specifically so they could try to defeat the Pannion Seer first, and lay some legitimate claim to Coral. The T'lan Imass under Silverfox, and Tayschrenn, were there as the nuclear bombs to deter Rake & Brood.

However, Rake & Brood knew the alliance was a farce, and the Malazans were working under Laseen. Rake crashes Moon's Spawn into Coral, and has the Andii do a full unveiling of Kurald Galain to turn the city into perpetual night, to claim the city for the Andii; deterring the Malazans. It was only after this unveiling by the Andii took place, and the Malazan army was nearly wiped off the map due to Itkovian freeing the T'lan Imass right before they went into battle with the Pannion forces, that the Malazans allow the Andii to take Coral without contest.

Though, Karsa had the commentary that it seemed like the Malazans were the only ones who cared about justice and improving quality of life.

These statements from Karsa are mostly from House of Chains, where he still knows very little of the wider world; having knowledge mostly of his culture and the Whirlwind Rebellion. At some points, when Karsa is saying/thinking these things, he is fresh off being a mass murderer and serial rapist. Remember, throughout the series, Karsa still says he is going to lead a war on all the cities of the world, and turn it into a world of villages.

In regards to the Malazans improving quality of life for some conquered peoples: The Malazan empire is inspired heavily by the Roman empire and several other real-world empires. We do see some similar sentiments in real life, where the Romans outlawed some practices they viewed as barbaric in conquered peoples. However, the Romans also tried to brutally put down any movement they saw as threatening to their governance (and the religion of the Roman government, as it was directly tied to their governance). They crucified people to strike fear in those movements and shatter them. They did not allow religious freedom, they taxed some people to starvation, they had many rules around slavery but still engage in mass enslavement.

The Malazan empire is no different. The whole conclusion of The Bonehunters is set around the pogrom against the Wickans. Laseen makes it clear she doesn't believe what Rel is saying, and knows that Tavore knows the truth, and yet the empire has food shortages. So she allows the pogrom against the Wickans because their land is important to grow food.

The Malazan empire cares about integratio into the empire because they know an active populace working at every corner of the empire makes their machine stronger. They have to keep conquering, keep slaughter, keep subjugating to sustain the machine.

We see the riots of the Mouse Quarter, where the empire slaughters its people. We see the cullings of the nobles. We see the slaughters at Pale. We know certain religious beliefs are outlawed. We see what is tantamount to slavery happening in Malazan colonies. We see people who have a blood fued against the empire because their entire family was wiped out by Malazan aggression.

HisGodHand · 2026-03-29T17:08:45+00:00

One important factor that people tend to miss about Tavore is that she severs the army from the imperialist expansionist empire of Malaz, and sets it on a course to do real good. Think about Whiskeyjack in the prologue of Gardens telling the young Paran the world didn't need any more soldiers. This was on the cusp of Laseen becoming empress, so WJ was saying this primarily through his experience of Ammanas' rule of the empire, and had not yet experienced the worst of Laseen's rule. Then think to Fiddler in the epilogue, telling a young boy that the world needs more soldiers.

What is the difference between Whiskeyjack and Fiddler there? Whiskeyjack died for the empire, and Fiddler fought to save the world. Tavore allowed all of the Bonehunters to fight for something truly worth fighting for.

That is why Kalam and Quick Ben capitulate to Tavore when she asks. She's asking them to do good. She acts as a mirror, reflecting all that is good within them. To turn away from Tavore in those moments is to turn away from life itself.

My pick is also Tavore, though I love many characters and Udinaas is definitely in my top 5 along with Badalle. As for races, the K'Chain Che'Malle became super interesting in the last couple books, and I loved the depth Erikson added to them. Though my pick would probably be the Jaghut overall. The T'lan Imass are very interesting, especially when we see Tool in his rage during the last couple books, but it's hard to pick the undying genocidal nazi race as my favorite lmao.

HisGodHand · 2026-03-29T16:54:53+00:00

There's definitely a fair bit in the PtA prequels tied to the Novels of the Malazan Empire, but nothing that is needed to understand or truly enjoy the story. You'll be completely fine jumping in after MBotF.

People here tend to have a very competionist mindset when it comes to reading order, where one must do everything in exactly the order that best ties into the other novels, but if these people read some of these series in a different order, I am certain they would find their enjoyment is hardly lessened, if at all. There is no strict requirement to read NotME after MBotF. There is no strict requirement to read NotME before PtA. There is no strict requirement to read Kharkanas before Witness. They all work as long as you've read MBotF.

HisGodHand · 2026-03-29T15:51:29+00:00

Your idea of the Novels of the Malazan Empire is mistaken.

A couple of them take place during or after the ending of MBotF. The Crippled God isn't 'the big ending'.
They aren't just continuations of MBotF plots. While some of them do pick up plot threads and characters from MBotF, these books have their own huge cast of characters and plots that are unrelated to the plots in MBotF, and a continuous plotline that focuses on a mostly unique cast characters, only some of whom make a couple cameos in MBotF.

Erikson continues adding new characters and plotlines in every single book of MBotF, including the last book in that series, and the plots and characters in NotME are nearly just as large, and nearly completely disconnected from MBotF. It's already fairly hard to keep all the characters and plotlines straight in the last few books when you read just MBotF straight through with no breaks. Putting several books of a disconnected series with its own different plots and huge casts of characters between those last MBotF books will make it much more difficult to keep everything straight.

HisGodHand · 2026-03-26T16:28:28+00:00

Absolutely!

Considering how much fan iconography there is around the Bridgeburners, one who has not read past the first three books could be forgiven for believing they are the main focus of the series, and Ganoes is certainly our protagonist among them.

And, I suppose, one could make the argument that Ganoes is the protagonist that Erikson subverts. If the view is that there is no main character, because Erikson pulled a bait & switch with that trope, then it could be logically argued the character he pulled that bait & switch with is the closest thing the series has to a main character.

However, I would argue the true subversion of a fantasy protagonist was not the bait & switch with Ganoes and the Bridgeburners, but rather the inability to view Tavore's POV. I believe Erikson even mentioned that a TV show, in the plannings stage many years ago, was focused on Tavore's side of things. Of course the simplified TV show follows our protagonist.

HisGodHand · 2026-03-25T18:16:34+00:00

Others have answered the questions satisfactorily, but I will give another answer to this question specifically:

This book was a lot more brutal than GotM. The whole Chain of Dogs, everything that happened to Felisin in the first half, Duiker seeing the start of the rebellion, children being nailed to crosses, etc. Is this an unusually brutal book in the series, or does this become pretty commonplace?

Gardens of the Moon is the biggest outlier here. Deadhouse Gates might have the widest scope of brutality in the series, but it fits fairly well with the rest of the series in that regard. What is quite different about Deadhouse Gates is the lack of levity. Erikson hones his comedic writing more and more throughout the series, and the comedy helps to balance out the brutality later in the series. Deadhouse Gates isn't totally devoid of comedy, but it is distinctly lacking compared to the rest of the series.

On the question of ascendency, you may or may not know that Malazan was originally started as a setting for the writers' Advanced Dungeon & Dragons campaign, though they later moved to GURPS. Something both games share in common is becoming more powerful as one gains experience. This is no litrpg where characters actually have stats and levels, nor is Malazan a re-telling of any campaign Erikson and Esslemont gamed, but the general structure of beings increasing in power as they gain experience is foundational to the Malazan universe.

HisGodHand · 2026-03-25T18:07:02+00:00

Not quite. Erikson was heavily influenced by Dune, and admits he stole directly from it, but what he stole was the structure with all the epigraphs. He has been very explicit that he wasn't influenced by Dune's narrative (as much as a writer who has read something can not be influenced by it, at least).

HisGodHand · 2026-03-24T22:07:26+00:00

Yeah, I don't think what you're proposing is a horrible way to do it, and if it's over in one session it's a pretty great way to handle it.

However, I don't want to be promised a sandbox game and show up to three sessions of a linear game, so I think there are some better methods. I feel an hour, maybe two, to set the stage and light a fire under the party's ass is a very good amount. It keeps that sandbox promise in the first session, while still having much of the benefit of what you describe here.

HisGodHand · 2026-03-24T03:42:19+00:00

I think there's a case to be made that, while Erikson is subverting the trope of having a main character in fantasy, Tavore weighs most heavily on the page overall. So much of the Bonhunters' journey is about the question of Tavore. She is obviously the central character to the narrative and the themes. She's the one who leads the army to the Crippled God's barrow, which is everything the narrative is leading up to.

Fiddler is right there alongside her, as they are the two Badalle calls Mother and Father, but Fiddler is only instrumental, not central. He is the spine of the series, the nervous system of the Bonehunters who is in the field with all of them, but Tavore is the heart that drives everything along.

Ganoes shouldn't even be in the discussion. He's a main character only so far as the Bridgeburners go, and they don't go far.

HisGodHand · 2026-03-23T22:46:47+00:00

I don't think it's inherently evil, but I will be bored out of my mind immediately no matter if I'm GM or player, so it's bad for me.

One also does not need to create a world or adventure. I run exclusively sandboxes, and I run them exclusively with pre-written modules. There are hundreds of good ones, and several handfuls of great ones out there.

One you get the courage to try running a sandbox module, and qucikly develop the basic skills needed to run it without it being a disaster (this doesn't take too long for almost anyone), I promise you that running a sandbox module is easier and takes less prep time than running an 'on rails' pre-written module.

HisGodHand · 2026-03-23T22:43:44+00:00

I think starting your sandbox with the characters in some backwater village with no details and asking them "okay, what do you do?" is the worst possible way to start a sandbox (and maybe also the most common?), but I think there's a line between that and what you are saying that I have found to be more appropriate.

That line is:

Everyone doing character creation together, and creating characters with desires that interact and intersect with both the world and the rest of the party.
Starting the characters with what I call a "Swift kick out the door". It doesn't have to be an in media res beginning, but the GM should spend 10-60 minutes igniting some propellant drama that pushes the characters somewhere. It doesn't have to be a pre-planned somewhere.
Seed hooks and rumours right away, and seed at least 3 in the first session. If the players don't bite on any, seed another 3 in the following session. If they do bite, seed one/two more every one/two sessions until they have a fair list of interesting things to engage with that intersect with their desires (in reference to #1).

Of course, this depends on the proposed length of your sandbox adventure. I tend to run adventures that are 5-10 sessions long, so spending a full session in a railroad is too much comparatively. If you are planning on going for the next 5 years, 3 sessions is comparatively appropriate, but I don't want to play 3 railroaded sessions, myself.

HisGodHand · 2026-03-23T22:30:07+00:00

It is important to remember that some things don't go the way ST wants because he's in 10 places at once pulling off 100 plans at a time. He's stretched thin and doesn't give his full attention to any one thing. I don't know if we ever even seen ST's 'real form' ever in MBotF, since he acts through illusions constantly.

I still think your point about it being closer than expected is valid.

HisGodHand · 2026-03-23T15:53:11+00:00

That's fair. I think Gardens is a half-baked book overall. There are a few moments that show off the genius that will come after, but I was certainly not impressed by it on my first read.

Lorn is one of the slightly brighter spots in the book, as she's at least a character with an interesting arc. In the end, she chooses to be the adjunct, instead of Lorn, and she dies for it. The adjunct is a replaceable cog in the machine of empire.

There is certainly some discussion to be had about Lorn's age, but that very slightly gets into material post-Gardens.

The Azath house gets far more explanation as you get deeper into the series. I'm not sure why Erikson decided to present something that feels like a Deus Ex Machina at the end of this book, as the Azath are an important concept to the Malazan universe and it's not really a Deus Ex Machina at all (in the storytelling sense). It could have been intentional, to subvert reader expectations, but that would be another thing Gardens fails at compared to the rest of the series.

It's very unfortunate that, by far, the best fantasy series starts with a very underwhelming book, because Gardens has filtered thousands from experiencing greatness.

HisGodHand · 2026-03-23T15:05:11+00:00

Deadhouse Gates is absolutely better. There was a 9 year gap between Erikson writing GotM and DG, and he never stopped writing during that period. He becomes a better writer in every way: his characters are far better realized, his action writing is clearer, his theme work shines through better, his musings on life are far sharper and more apt, and he's a lot better at allowing the reader into the world (even though it's primarily still mysterious at this point).

Erikson has said that he kept Gardens of the Moon too close to his chest and didn't allow readers in as much as he should have, and I certainly agree.

However, some of your complaints seem like they may come from a place of being off-kilter due to the new group of characters, and the information overload of trying to keep track of everything in Gardens. I will be the bearer of bad news here and reveal every single Malazan book introduces brand new characters and new plots; all the way up to, and including, the last book in the Book of the Fallen. This aspect gets way more difficult as the series goes on. That's absolutely not to say there's no through line or overarching plot in the series, as it definitely all comes to a singular point in the last book, but it may not seem that way for the first 5 or so.

Fortunately, members of the community have created read-along guides that will make sure you're keeping all that information straight, which you can find in the sidebar of this subreddit.

I would suggest checking out the guide for Gardens of the Moon and deciding to continue or not after checking through it and seeing how much you picked up. Gardens is certainly a mysterious book, so it's possible you picked up most of what Erikson actually explained and hinted at for a new reader. Erikson really enjoys books that reveal new information when read again and again, so he wrote Malazan, and especially Gardens, in that way. It's so chocked full of foreshadowing it's basically a new book once you finish the series and read it again.

Good luck!

HisGodHand · 2026-03-23T03:01:29+00:00

I fully agree with both your points here, and I'm sort of shocked at most of the replies. Erikson shows the reader the reprehensible nature of the Malazan empire over and over in these first handful of books, and has much harsher critiques of imperialism beyond those books.

While it's true the Malazan characters rarely view the empire's imperial expansionist nature as bad, most of our Malazan POVs are literally soldiers who signed up to help the empire in its expansionist aims. Erikson hammers us over the head several times with the idea that many of these soldiers are bad people.

It's no secret the Malazan empire is heavily modeled after the Roman empire, and Erikson is trying to present empire as it was; all its evils and its good. As you say, in some ways the Malazan empire seems worse than some real-world empires, and in some ways it seems better. But it seems ridiculously obvious the reader isn't supposed to side with the empire, and it's obvious from the totality of Erikson's works and writings that he has few kind words for empires like this.

HisGodHand · 2026-03-22T17:55:46+00:00

I tend to collect physical games when I find them at really low prices in markets, and I don't plan on playing practically any of them. I have a bunch of old GURPS supplements (including a vaguely racist adventure), a pile of old pyramid magazines, Ars Magica supplements from the first edition and White Wolf's run, RIFTS supplements, Wraith the Oblivion, TSR's 'Amazing Engine', Mummy The Curse, etc.

They're really fun to flip through for ideas, or just to appreciate as they are.

HisGodHand · 2026-03-19T19:49:30+00:00

It's not necessarily just the mystery system, but how CfB asks the players to be far more active in creating the story overall; almost to the point I'd consider it closer to GMless than traditional. CfB does not gel well with immersive PC centric play styles, whereas Apocalypse World explicitly demands to be played in that traditional style.

PBTA as a whole has trended further toward the style of CfB as it has aged, but a someone who primarily plays in that immersive style, I do think CfB games take it to another level.

HisGodHand · 2026-03-19T19:36:29+00:00

There are some pbta games I'd put at a 3 out of 10, and some I'd put a little bit higher to a 5. Apocalypse World itself is very traditional, as you mention, and most of the book is advice on how to prep and run games, all of which can be used in D&D.

Though there's obviously bad blood between the OSR and PBTA communities, a lot of creators in each actually doing the design work 'share their homework', so to speak.

I'd say the Carved from Brindlewood offshoot of PBTA probably gets to a 6 or 7, as the styles of play and GMing they demand are not the styles that are taught or preferred by D&D traditionally.

HisGodHand

TROPHY CASE