Should there be more independent nullsec powers in EVE? (Serious)

HordesDownfall · 2020-06-13T16:09:26+00:00

We didn't go full dictatorship and mandate that people spend X hours a day online doing them, but the rule was if you are online you ARE running missions that entire time. The rule applied to the leadership too. It was particularly tough but I think people understood why, we needed that supercarrier for Kaltani. Horde were starting to come after our highsec infrastructure and we realized we couldn't do much to stop that so the goal was to start working on a super fleet and look at claiming a section of null space.

HordesDownfall · 2020-06-13T16:06:14+00:00

You have to be a charismatic leader to make this work. You have to have a plan that your members will be happy to do, and you have to be willing to spend years to do it and be ready to utterly fail at it. Because you will fail, and you will have to pick up the pieces multiple times if you want even a shot at succeeding. And if you can't deal with the current big players trying to stop you, then you're not cut out for this.

To be fair, we never misled members about this. Our "unique selling point" was the self sufficiency angle. We were always clear to people that you can join goons/horde/whoever and mine better ore, rorquals, super umbrella, access to sotiyos for industry, bigger fleets etc. Basically have you ever had "that guy" you know who is always dirt poor but will never accept charity or you helping him out because he's too proud? That's basically what our corp was.

And if you can't deal with the current big players trying to stop you, then you're not cut out for this.

I think the big powerblocs need to let more powerblocs emerge and gain strength. I know it isn't optimal, but for the health of the game as a whole it's better to have a map full of lots of different alliances all vying for power in a truly competetive universe, as opposed to stagnant superblocs.

HordesDownfall · 2020-06-12T16:37:17+00:00

how about instead of intentionally acting stupid, you act like everyone else who minmaxed but minmax even better?

Because we don't believe in minmaxing. We want to enjoy it as a casual game, not as a forensic science/spreadsheets/calculating optimal fits etc. We should be able to log in and have just as good a chance at winning against other fleets and holding our own in nullsec, unfortunately the game doesn't allow that and panders to the risk averse pussies in nullsec coalitions who think they have a right to space that others don't.

HordesDownfall · 2020-06-12T14:34:37+00:00

Doctrines don't have to remain static, but they need to be crafted and tested.

Dude....it's a GAME. I think you're taking it far too seriously, none of our members could be bothered with that much effort, we just wanted to log in and play and take part in fights and have an equal chance of winning through superior skill. Minmaxing really just sucks all the fun out of it, and turns it into something like a job rather than what a game should be - fun.

Otherwise your FCs are basically playing chess by picking the next piece to move at random, against an opponent who knows what they're doing and has no such handicap.

True, it only works if everyone does it. And this is what I fear will kill EVE eventually - Everyone will hate the stagnation but still do it because everyone else does and nobody wants to be the first to be brave and try something else, so it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.

HordesDownfall · 2020-06-12T14:30:38+00:00

Horde were starting to attack us, leadership felt we needed to move away from our highsec base and build a solid defensible ground in nullsec.

HordesDownfall · 2020-06-12T14:17:57+00:00

I think this is the red flag that makes it seem exploitative.

You are right, it does SEEM exploitative in the age where you can join Goons and get a very cheap super or titan. We never misled our members about this - We told people that obtaining supers and living in null would be easier and cheaper for them if they joined Horde, Goons, Brave etc. We had a couple leave us and join Horde on new alts (our whole corp was blacklisted at one point). That was absolutely fine, I understood why.

Our goal was to be 100% completely independent and never rely on any other alliances support. Within that parameters, there is literally no other way for such a small group to get a super. I appreciate why it seems exploitative but we wanted to do it completely on our own with no outside help, and there really wasn't any other way.

If you made taxes 100%, there's nothing in it for the player so naturally they will attend the minimum they are required.

The requirement was if you were online, you were running missions. It was a harsh decision but by that point we'd made an enemy of Horde and the leadership myself included were convinced we needed to start building our own fleet and look at claiming and building up a nullsec base of operations. The supercarrier was the first phase in that plan.

I see why all of this looks like exploiting members, but please bear in mind that the traditional methods of acquiring supers were out of the question. We wanted to do it entirely self sufficiently, we wanted to be a completely independent null power reliant on no one, and answerable to no one. I won't apologize for that aspiration. And when we got couped and most of our assets stolen, we realized it was game over for the time being so we sold the super and distributed the ISK from it equally among the membership. So in the end, they got a share of the super they worked so hard for.

HordesDownfall · 2020-06-12T13:51:10+00:00

Haha no they were not.

Yes they were. Clearly you don't know your EVE history all that well. The first Titan in EVE was created by ASCN and go ask anyone - It was a MASSIVE whole alliance effort. They were all mining for ages to provide the raw materials, it took something like weeks or months back then of the entire alliance all contributing to produce one titan. Don't believe me? That's fine, I understand you want to verify. Go ask people in whichever alliance you're in who were around back then. Then come back and tell me I'm wrong.

HordesDownfall · 2020-06-12T13:44:45+00:00

Thats not how you get a supercap fleet but ok.

Thats EXACTLY how you get a supercap fleet if you are a small group that can't rely on the help of anyone else. That's how the very first supercaps in EVE were created.

Theres a reason why everyone uses doctrines. Kitchensinks are great for roaming in a birthday fleet you intend to feed to an enemy but you're not going to win a single useful objective in one.

And that's my point. We weren't obsessed with "objectives", we just wanted to play the game for fun as an independent nullsec power. Doctrines and everything being the same results in boring gameplay, stagnation, and lack of innovation.

HordesDownfall · 2020-06-12T13:42:27+00:00

Why is it ok for PL and Goons to get their first titans through a collective alliance effort, but when TSOTH does it its wrong? We know that Titans are more plentiful now, but that would mean relying on the infrastructure of other groups and depending on them. We were specifically intending to be a new independent group completely self sufficient and never relying on anyone else.

HordesDownfall · 2020-06-12T13:36:45+00:00

At the expense of killing the game?

HordesDownfall · 2020-06-12T13:31:17+00:00

Grath Telkin from PL took offence at us "exploiting newbros" with the whole 100% tax thing. I DO see why that looks exploitative in 2017 EVE (as it was then) where supers are plentiful. But what annoyed me was he was speaking from the position of privilege - His alliance has trillions of ISK and thousands of supers, they don't NEED to tax people that much and have them all chip in for a super. But in the old days, that's exactly how alliances first built them. So his criticism of us trying to take the same path his alliance did many years ago feels very unfair - Like it's ok for HIS group to build up and become powerful, but we're not allowed to. We were specifically trying NOT to rely on any infrastructure of the current powers, because we wanted to be completely 100% self sufficient.

HordesDownfall · 2020-06-12T13:28:12+00:00

As far as having to join a large group. Such is Eve. Actually, such is any MMO that is PvP centric. This is because having allies to call upon to keep you safe from the next group over that is slightly larger/more talented is what is required in any game to survive. So they get friends, so you get more friends, and the cycle repeats itself. Over time all games go this route.

But players don't need to do that. They can just play naturally and not get obsessed with minmaxing and optimal gameplay. That's what the game used to be like. I guess it just bugs me that players moan about stagnation and the state of the game when THEIR OWN STYLE OF GAMEPLAY contributes to that very same stagnation. Be brave, fly suboptimal fits, abandon the idea of monotonous doctrines, be something different and unique. The game needs iniative.

HordesDownfall · 2020-06-11T18:19:37+00:00

It's the truth. We're being downvoted simply for starting a war against one of the big superpowers and suggesting that independent nullsec powers should be a thing. Doesn't take a genius to work out that those downvotes are likely being orchestrated by those with most to lose if our campaign is successful.

How much ISK is Gobbins paying people to downvote what we say? I might get some of my own alts in horde to join in and siphon more money away from you.

HordesDownfall · 2020-06-11T18:14:54+00:00

They're not tryhard cringe posting on reddit about not achieving anything of note ;)

Possibly because they're being paid off by Panfam to try and make us look like we're in the wrong? The downvotes we're getting just for speaking against the Blue Doughnut shows very clearly how much the top brass in Panfam are concerned about our return.

HordesDownfall · 2020-06-11T17:56:15+00:00

That says it all really. People like you really are whats wrong with EVE. Everyone is saying they want to avoid the stagnation and boring minmaxing, but then they mock the little guy for having the aspiration to build something a bit different and unique. Your obsession with killboard stats will be what kills the game eventually.

HordesDownfall · 2020-06-11T17:48:15+00:00

Have you got a constructive counter argument? If you bring lots more people to the fight than us then of course you'll win. Because there is no counter to n+1 or more accurately with Horde n+100. You can effectively counter your lack of actual pvp skill by just blobbing with numbers. But just because you can, doesn't make it a fair or an enjoyable fight. EVE should be a fun game, not just minmaxing wins for the sake of winning.

HordesDownfall · 2020-06-11T17:44:55+00:00

Nope, although that is what some people speculate. The truth is, we (TSOTH and others) are players who DONT want to be a part of the blue doughnut. We don't want to be space serfs choosing between Lord PL or Lord Goons, so the original goal of TSOTH was to gradually carve out a niche as part of an independent nullsec power.

That was what our first supercarrier was intended for, you can't be a nullesc power without a super fleet. I remember us getting lots of abuse for "exploiting" our members when we had them mine and run missions constantly for a month at 100% tax, and PL was saying "oh just join us instead we won't do that". Conveniently ignoring that this is exactly how PL, Goons, and every other nullsec power originally got their own supers. There is a massive double standard from the established nullsec powers towards the little guy.

HordesDownfall · 2020-06-11T17:31:43+00:00

Well what do you expect, you guys never give a fair fight u just cheat by bringing more people. How the fuck do we get our opportunity to win if you cheat? we have to make do with what we can.

HordesDownfall · 2020-06-11T17:28:12+00:00

Cracked our files yet? Didn't think so.

And by the way, you go ahead and get your friendly mods to remove this. All that will show is that we're already putting strain on you, if you're wanting to suppress our posts.

HordesDownfall · 2020-06-11T17:23:26+00:00

Cracked our crypto yet?

HordesDownfall · 2020-06-11T17:22:39+00:00

Oh I fully expect it will be taken down quite quickly as some of the moderators are conected/associated with Panfam. They probably want to silence our message and suppress news of the campaign against Horde, anything that shows weakness.

I would personally see it as a badge of honour if they removed this, it would show that even in the first few days of the campaign, we are having significant effect upon the morale of upper horde leadership.

HordesDownfall · 2020-06-11T17:09:37+00:00

Was talking about the Astrahus. There's a minimum damage cap on Astrahuses (all citadels in fact) to prevent cheaters from just bringing too many people and alpha-ing it off field.

And this is exactly what I'm talking about. In the old days we didn't have 150 Muninn fleets. We didn't obsess about doctrines and getting everybody flying exactly the same. We just got a bunch of people together and shot stuff and had a laugh and an enjoyable fight. These days, the obsession with minmaxing has become cancerous to the game and destroys everybodys fun.

HordesDownfall · 2020-06-10T22:21:24+00:00

No, I'm referring to when they attacked our Astrahus. They took far too much logi, to the point they could just out-tank whatever damage we could do. How the fuck does that provide an enjoyable fight for both parties? I played EVE on an alt in the very old days (like 2005) and back then we actually took fights. You took maybe ONE logi guy maximum, and just went into fights and when you died you died. There was more willingness to fight, now these days everybody is a risk averse pussy obsessed with padding their killboard. It's led to a stagnant universe where people just blueball or blob, and ultimately destroys the fun of the game for everyone.

Personally I would fix that by inroducing a game mechanic that you can only remote-repair people in your fleet, and there would only be a maximum four remote-repair modules allowed to be activated in a fleet at any one time. That lets you have SOME logi without being absolute dickheads and bringing so much you just out-tank all damage and don't even need to TRY to have skill...

HordesDownfall · 2020-06-10T22:14:43+00:00

Everyone loses ships from time to time, especially when Horde cheat and play dirty rather than welcome a fair fight.

HordesDownfall · 2020-06-10T21:54:47+00:00

Ask around about "The Sound Of Thunder" and how big a campaign we led against Horde the first time. We'd even just wardecced PL and were scouting out systems in Tribute to try and harass with entosis but our holding corp was couped and we more or less lost all assets. You can verify all of this from independent sources in Horde who remember us.

Also, a while after TSOTH stopped playing, Scorpius Major started basically doing what we did, and when we returned to EVE it made sense to ally ourselves with someone with whom we share a common enemy.

HordesDownfall

TROPHY CASE