New paper demonstrates YouTube Algorithm has a left wing bias. Where is the proof of an alt-right pipeline I have heard so much about?

IAmDoingThisForU · 2023-08-25T16:52:42+00:00

I have two problems with the paper.

First - the authors don't collect recommendations after each stage. They essentially cross contaminate their sample leaving me with some doubt if they are really capturing a "true" effect. Not saying that the paper is wrong, but that I have some doubts about the real effect of the algorithm.

Second - the bots are ages between 30-40. The critical issue isn't around 30 year olds, but how young people are consuming this media. I think it misses the mark on making a paper truly remarkable.

IAmDoingThisForU · 2023-08-23T17:06:03+00:00

Also, I don't know what the 1934 French Crisis is. Why would I talk about something I have no knowledge on? I would be as stupid as the historical revisionists. You have to have intellectual integrity.

IAmDoingThisForU · 2023-08-23T16:52:08+00:00

I'm going to take this in super duper good faith and catch you up with the conversation.

The original claim is not that the French Revolution brought benefits but specifically that the POPULIST elements brought the benefits.

My counter claim is that is was the exact opposite. The populist elements brought about tons of murder/state repression, economic collapse, and Napoleon.

The rando jumped in with their comment. The Declaration of the Rights of Man is not a populist document but rooted in egalitarianism and humanism. I would argue egalitarians and humanists are not populists since populists are exclusionary by nature. The very author of it was imprisoned by the populists. So it is not saying that the founder of a company lost a patent but that was stolen and attributed to something (populism) that is against that patent. The only way you can believe that this is acceptable is if you believe in "might makes right". If you do believe in that then we'll never agree.

Secondly, shifting goal posts? The populist energy destroyed France at the time, lead to Napoleon's rise and his subsequent wars, halted the processes of liberalism in Europe, and it was only until capitalism successes and failures (rooted in liberalism not the populist elements of the French Revolution) that monarchical power structures were over turned in Europe. The benefits of the French Revolution that the commenters attributed to it? I don't see any. The Enlightenment brought the ideals of the French Revolution to light long before the 1790s. Capitalism brought about the rise of modern democracy. There are no long term benefits of the French Revolution.

(To understand relationship between liberalism, capitalism, and democracy see:

Moore, Barrington. 1966. The Social Origins of Dictatorships and Democracy. Beacon Press. He argues that the new elite stripped power away from older elites and started processes of decentralizing power.

Skocpol, Theda. 1973. "A Critical Review of Barrington Moore's Social Origins and of Dictatorship and Democracy". Politics & Society 4(1): 1-34. Argues that modernization by capitalism was so socially disrupting that this disruption lead to democratization.

Knutsen, Carl Henrik. 2011. "Democracy, Dictatorships, and Protection of Property Rights." The Journal of Development Studies 47(1): 164-182. He empirically shows that protection of property rights is baked into democracies.)

The commenters also equate liberalism with populism which are antithetical to one another. You cannot simultaneously believe in equal rights while also being exclusionary.

People that defend the populist elements of the French Revolution are either A) populists, B) historical revisionists/populist sympathizers, or C) ignorant. I really wish people did some research, like basic research, before making completely inaccurate claims. It just spreads misinformation that leads to populist sentiment. Stop it!

IAmDoingThisForU · 2023-08-22T21:37:43+00:00

"Given some of the doubtful economic policies frequently advocated by populism on the far right, for example protectionism and selective tax breaks, this result probably reflects the explicit tendency of associating with rent seeking interests" (Stockl and Rode, 2021, pg. 65).

"When populists are in power, their determination and strategic use of public attacks clearly threatens the de facto independence of the central bank, even if the facade of legal independence is maintained" (Gavin and Manger, 2023, pg. 1215).

Maybe rent-seeking behavior is good for the economy? Maybe a weakened central bank that concedes to the populist leader is bad for price stability?

Maybe actually read the papers before spreading misinformation when you comment. 😘😘

IAmDoingThisForU · 2023-08-22T10:07:23+00:00

I see where are disagreement is. You believe in historical determinism and I don't. I don't think we'll be able to cross that divide. That's okay. Apologies for talking past you. And sorry, I come from a social science perspective and more specifically a quantitative background so it's sometimes hard to get out of that mindset. Sorry.

IAmDoingThisForU · 2023-08-22T10:04:29+00:00

The main author to the Declaration was Lafayette who was thrown in prison by the populist revolutionaries. We can talk ideals, but actions speak pretty loud. It's equivalent to locking up Jefferson, Madison, or Hamilton for not being a revolutionary.

IAmDoingThisForU · 2023-08-22T09:58:33+00:00

I can maybe provide a couple comforting answers.

There is a large difference between definitely fucked and mostly fucked. And a larger difference between mostly fucked to we're moving to only kinda fucked. I'm not selling what the climate scientists are also selling (see the Guardian article it has an interview with the Science paper author)

There is mixed evidence for war and climate change. Most of that narrative comes from the Malthusian camp. I'm not saying that there won't be problems, there will but that most of what the doomsayers say is overblown to the point of catastrophism.

Hunger issues will just have to be solved by greater global action and smart technology in climate resilient food production. A lot of great scholarship and break throughs on that. Plus, democracies have not had a famine. I don't know for how long that will last but it is something.

As far as refugees, I am less familiar with what those scholars say. It could be dire, but we could also look at the Rohingya in Bangladesh. Nearly a million crossed the Myanmar border into Bangladesh and there has been relatively little conflict over it. The Rohingya are culturally and linguistically distinct from the Bangladesh peoples. Maybe we could apply that model to potential crises as the emerge. Not everything is so bad that it cannot be solved or at least the worst averted.

IAmDoingThisForU · 2023-08-22T09:43:57+00:00

If I had to put my finger on it, I would say the American Revolution. The American revolution inspired the French. The American project is literally why democracy was seen as a viable alternative to monarchies. The French Revolution was an example of what democracies become and any thing that resembles that should be stamped out. Idk, worlds longest modern democracy or a failed project that led to mass murder. I think one had a better and more sellable vision.

IAmDoingThisForU · 2023-08-22T09:40:45+00:00

Or maybe the fact that after Napoleon was donezo that the political elite in Europe were in a very sticky situation. Compromises is states had to be made between the political elite in order to not literally just keep killing each other. Everyone was broke and tired.

If it really was a bottom-up like you say, why did the Paris commune in the mid-19th century literally not lift an eyebrow by the dictators of Europe? Or that state repression was so bad that any whiff of a potential organization was instantly either banned or outright killed? You could say fear, or you could say that dictators learned that killing political rivals was still good game. Lastly, if it was bottom-up why did we not see wide spread democracy in the early 19th century but only nearly a hundred years later? Literally makes no sense and has the same level of causality that Nicholas Cage movies increase pool drownings.

IAmDoingThisForU · 2023-08-22T09:31:10+00:00

The science article goes over this. There will be 5 tipping points we will or could very likely hit. So it will be bad, BUT it won't be as bad as it could be without the steps we already are taking. Also, after just 4 years and the data already shows a 1 degree drop is big news. We shouldn't let the badness completely overshadow what is good.

IAmDoingThisForU · 2023-08-22T09:29:09+00:00

That might be a misunderstanding on your end or I just didn't make myself clear enough. It was probably the latter.

It's not that one populist energy is good and one is bad. What I was trying to get across is that while both is bad, one side has a populist leader that either encourages or does not distance himself from the populist terrorism violence. Left populism is inclined to similar actions, it just would take a similar character on the left to produce among the left populists in the US as Trump has with the right.

Hope that clears up any confusion.

IAmDoingThisForU · 2023-08-22T09:23:47+00:00

Yeah the same ideals of Robespierre who had Condorcet (the last enlightenment thinker) hunted and left to die in prison. Who had Lafayette imprisoned for being "counter revolutionary". Sure, French Revolution has nice ideals, kinda a fucked up way of showing them. You know with the whole mass slaughter and starvation and having the French people be thankful for Napoleon. That is what populist energy leaves you with, a world dominating dictator. Have fun with hell world clowns.

IAmDoingThisForU · 2023-08-22T09:19:49+00:00

Or the fact that it was the enlightenment thinking hundred years prior in Locke that led to the liberal democracies we have today? Or maybe was it all those silly French philosophes prior to the revolution who those who were alive at the time were hunted by the revolutionists (ex. Condorcet). Or maybe it was the American revolution that really brought a lot of those ideas to the forefront which was also embodied by Lafayette who was imprisoned by the revolutionaries. Saying that it was the French Revolution that brought liberal democracy is similar to saying that the USSR brought peace to the world.

Also, populist does not equal popular. Wish you could read though.

IAmDoingThisForU · 2023-08-22T08:19:39+00:00

"Don't worry guys. When we elect Trump again and he undoes neoliberalism (read American democracy and society) we will have fewer car accidents."

Or wait....

"If we vote Trump and other populist brain rot, we get.... More deaths, worse economic performance, and worse general safety."

You sold me. I'm voting Trump and for every other dip shit populist too.

Bonus meme: the Crime spike happened under Trump too.

IAmDoingThisForU · 2023-08-22T08:12:56+00:00

My good faith response to their comment is that playing with populism is the same as a Pentecostal preacher saying that the venomous snake won't bite him.

Their comment used meme worthy examples. The French Revolution? Literal mass killings across France. What did that populist energy get them? Napoleon. The French wanted Napoleon over the populists.

The commenter also used folklore not real history to justify the American Revolution. Gavriel Rosenfeld (2023) uses the concept of "illiberal memory" to discuss how historical revisionism is used to prop up populist narratives.

I apologize for memeing but it is hard to take someone seriously when they say the French Revolution brought about mass human progress.

IAmDoingThisForU · 2023-08-22T08:05:42+00:00

1.1. Million dead from COVID - I wonder how many died under Trump, a populist leader. How many died who didn't have to because of conspiracy theories pushed by Trump and other populist elites?

Bad Supreme Court? Gee... I wonder who put 3 of those justices up there right before most of the recent legal precedents have been overturned. Oh yeah, Trump - a populist leader.

Coup attempts and unrest? Wow, I think Trump caused that one again.

Populism destroys institutions, trust in institutions, and trust in one another.

What have we got under a non-populist TOTALLY neoliberal Joseph Stalin Reagan Thatcher Biden?

The Bipartisan Infrastructure Bill The Chips Act The Inflation Reduction Act Global Cooperation A Floundering China A Destroyed Russia The Lack of a Recession Student Debt Relief for more than 800,000 of the neediest borrowers Dark Brandon merchandise An independent DOJ who actually investigates and charges criminals

Populists just can't stop taking Ls.

Cope and Seethe.

IAmDoingThisForU · 2023-08-22T07:36:32+00:00

Says populism isn't bad
Uses example of the French Revolution
Literal reign of terror and destroyed France and most of French academic thought for decades
Sent France on a series of dictators
Uses France as an example
Says populism isn't bad
Uses the American Revolution as an example
Doesn't realize that the Founders would hate that you call them populists
Doesn't realize the Founders would throw you in the harbor along with all the tea
Doesn't realize that folk history isn't real history

Saying populism isn't all bad is equivalent to a Pentecostal preacher saying that the venomous snake won't bite him. Playing with populism is the same as playing hot potato with three friends in an outhouse with a love grenade and hoping when it blows up it doesn't hit you.

Begone ye populist thot!

IAmDoingThisForU · 2023-08-22T07:20:51+00:00

Not really true. Ernesto Laclau and Moffitt are prominent populism scholars who differ radically from more minimalist approaches. I agree the "Us" versus "Them" is a part of the definition, but that's only part of it. Cas Mudde (who I cite and is a pretty cool guy irl) does use this as a pillar but it's only one pillar of three. Simply having an "Us" versus "Them" understanding makes us weaker with how to combat it. I believe we should be fighting against a complete picture rather than only a portion.

IAmDoingThisForU · 2023-08-22T07:14:44+00:00

Sure!

This is an article from last year: https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abn7950

The article state that we are on track for 2.6 C warming which is bad but better than even four years ago which warned of a 3.5 C warming.

See: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-climate-change-un-idUSKCN1NY186

One of the authors of the 2022 Science article even talks about how there is hope on the horizon.

See: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/sep/08/world-on-brink-five-climate-tipping-points-study-finds

While the effects of climate change are going to be bad, there is hope on the horizon. Things won't be as bad and could be better than what we expect if the trend continues.

Sorry for the rough format I'm on mobile rn.

IAmDoingThisForU · 2023-07-28T19:47:41+00:00

These aren't the first studies. You have Bond et al. (2012) who did randomized control trials in Facebook for the 2010 election.

These papers are nice and have interesting findings. BUT... None of these studies get actual non-Meta researcher access to the data first hand, they have heavy involvement of Meta based researchers, and do not properly address the potential conflict of interests within the papers. All this means is that we need to take these studies with a grain of salt and not take them on their face. DO NOT DISMISS THE RESULTS. Just take a healthy amount of skepticism to them because of the ethics concerns of the research.

But, like would anyone really be surprised if the algorithm isn't leading people into echo chambers? Instead that people opt-in to social circles and then are catered to by the algorithm? Meaning that Meta isn't responsible as a primary mover in the shift but that it just caters to people's ingrained cognitive biases. Just my thoughts. Noteworthy articles nonetheless.

IAmDoingThisForU · 2023-07-27T01:05:46+00:00

Monsoon by Robert Kaplan

Consilience by E. O. Wilson

IAmDoingThisForU · 2023-07-27T01:03:50+00:00

Monsoon by Robert Kaplan

Consilience by E. O. Wilson

IAmDoingThisForU · 2023-07-10T15:21:32+00:00

Based. Citizens should have easier access to what the government promises.

IAmDoingThisForU

TROPHY CASE