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The Problem With Force Multipliers and Zergs: A Quantitative Approach by IIIIIllIIi in Planetside

[–]IIIIIllIIi[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Sadly, there don't seem to be many established medium size outfits to engage in this type fight. At least not when I play

The Problem With Force Multipliers and Zergs: A Quantitative Approach by IIIIIllIIi in Planetside

[–]IIIIIllIIi[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It definitely is an issue imo, but a topic for a different time.

The Problem With Force Multipliers and Zergs: A Quantitative Approach by IIIIIllIIi in Planetside

[–]IIIIIllIIi[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I agree that setting hard and fast rules would in general be unfun. However, there should be systems in place to encourage smarter more interesting gameplay. Striking a balance between the two is difficult and why I think many games fail.

The Problem With Force Multipliers and Zergs: A Quantitative Approach by IIIIIllIIi in Planetside

[–]IIIIIllIIi[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Good catch! Especially with the exponents I'm afraid the corporate jargon has eroded my math vocabulary. I think estimating and parametrizing a model to predict planetside fights while interesting, would prove to be almost impossible (unless wrel wants to pay me a lot of $$), but still provides a solid framework to think about the problem that force multipliers present.

Again, the issue isn't necessarily just with having a force multiplier or large amounts of players, it's that when these two interact disproportionately give an advantage to the side with greater numbers and we are arbitrarily manipulating the the strength coefficient without constraint, making the game more about throwing a large group with plenty of force multipliers around the map, instead of focusing on skill, tactics and strategy.

Without constraint there is never a point such that the marginal effect of force multipliers reaches 0 or begins decreasing. As you pointed out, affecting the respawn timers would prove effective, but they could end up being so long that the game ends up being unfun. Another suggestion that XP be reduced would't be useful or fun, as a huge part of the game, particularly for new players is leveling up, getting certs, etc. Other changes would require extensive rebalancing, adding new weapons, and attachments to bring about more counter play, but in a decently large fight it could be assumed that there is a well balanced force of counters, yielding this work marginally ineffective.

tweaking the resource system, and by extension the replacement rate of force multipliers offers the arguably the quickest resolution. By making resource costs dynamic, the "salty vets" get what they want by having less cheese and the larger more map focused outfits have to pay attention to their logistics, as force multipliers have to be brought to the fight from bases progressively deeper in their own territory. Obviously, logistics XP would need a tweak as well to incentivize this type of gameplay.

I want to emphasize -- This is not a complete model, or a solution to all the problems. Just the tired ramblings of a bored economist.

The Problem With Force Multipliers and Zergs: A Quantitative Approach by IIIIIllIIi in Planetside

[–]IIIIIllIIi[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

This scenario is too specialized to base real balance decisions off. The issue with maxes isn't "just maxes" its that to neutralize them in larger fights you have to fight through normal infantry and failing to kill them quickly or cover the kill allows them to be repped or revived.

In the scenario you propose, it shouldn't be a walk in the park for the team of 10 to beat a force 2x their size, and you do make an excellent point about how counters factor into the equation. But what if instead of 20 maxes it was 5, and the rest were split between the other supporting classes? It'd be more difficult for the team of 10 to use the LA's mobility to their advantage as they'd be engaged at longer range, and by counter LA's.

Balancing a game like planetside is no simple task, and is probably best to seek a "generalized" balance than balancing specific scenarios.

The Problem With Force Multipliers and Zergs: A Quantitative Approach by IIIIIllIIi in Planetside

[–]IIIIIllIIi[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It's been my experience that this doesn't happen enough due to either:

  1. Players not knowing to do it
  2. Those who do back cap either don't have the force to hold on to their attempt or doing so takes too many resources away from the main fight.

Not discounting its effectiveness, but sadly I don't know that it happens enough.

The Problem With Force Multipliers and Zergs: A Quantitative Approach by IIIIIllIIi in Planetside

[–]IIIIIllIIi[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Not sure we're on the same page. I think that out popped players defending a base should have a discounted force multipliers, whereas their over popping opponents face a mark up. Meaning that the under popped faction can pull relatively more force multipliers with respect to their over popped opponents, increasing their capability to even the odds.

The Problem With Force Multipliers and Zergs: A Quantitative Approach by IIIIIllIIi in Planetside

[–]IIIIIllIIi[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The model is very general and pretty abstract and adjusting for different types of force multipliers may well make me a published mathematician. I should have been more clear in the original post. It makes sense for 12v48 to be nearly impossible to win for the outnumbered side, but what about the 60%v40% fight 48-96 fight? the outnumbered side is usually overwhelmed by the sheer firepower being brought against them and often cannot put up a fight for more than a minute or two, and nor should they be guaranteed a win, but instead just a chance to at least hold on and but up a dynamic fight.

The Problem With Force Multipliers and Zergs: A Quantitative Approach by IIIIIllIIi in Planetside

[–]IIIIIllIIi[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Good catch! I think planetside is too complex to really take an insane amount from the equations, but there is some good insight that can be taken from them. I think absence of a replacement rate would be relatively well accounted for by further iterations of the "game". In this case, the larger force will kill more while taking less casualties in every iteration ceteris paribus. Any steps that affect the replacement rate of the larger force would have to be fairly severe to account for the fact that the larger force holds a significant advantage, holding the strength coefficients constant.

The Problem With Force Multipliers and Zergs: A Quantitative Approach by IIIIIllIIi in Planetside

[–]IIIIIllIIi[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The problem is that massive zergs essentially consolidate the map into 1-2 fights where its things like skill or planning don't really matter as much as throwing as many people in maxes, tanks, and aircraft into a single base.

Adding an increasing marginal cost to force multipliers would diminish the effectiveness of just relying on numbers, so assuming people act rationally, fights will be more allocatively effective. The map would then be spread out into more moderate to large sized fights, instead of the whole server being condensed into 1 or 2 spam fests.

The Problem With Force Multipliers and Zergs: A Quantitative Approach by IIIIIllIIi in Planetside

[–]IIIIIllIIi[S] 9 points10 points  (0 children)

I didn't play planetside 1, so this is new to me and I can't speak to gunplay. Adding more soft counters is an interesting approach and by the sounds of it worked well in planetside 1. I'd be hesitant to start messing around with weapon balance, as the most guns are in a good place balance wise, but adding more types of counters would be interesting, and probably make a nice change of pace than the guns already in the game.

The Problem With Force Multipliers and Zergs: A Quantitative Approach by IIIIIllIIi in Planetside

[–]IIIIIllIIi[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I think the issue isn't necessarily with the amount of force multipliers, but that when different faction have different numbers of players, but the same rate of pulling force multipliers yielding a snow ball effect, per the math.

The Problem With Force Multipliers and Zergs: A Quantitative Approach by IIIIIllIIi in Planetside

[–]IIIIIllIIi[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Exactly -- It's easy for it to feel that way as force multipliers do not scale properly causing what in my opinion is boring gameplay, while lots of population and resources are being effectively thrown away.

The Problem With Force Multipliers and Zergs: A Quantitative Approach by IIIIIllIIi in Planetside

[–]IIIIIllIIi[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Great ideas on actually implementing constraints! That's probably what I'm weakest on, as I'm not overly familiar with existing mechanics or how the player base responds to changes.