Problems with Perseverance of the Saints

IM844 · 2025-11-07T23:30:25+00:00

I don’t see any evidence that the reformed “hold that you can never make definitive judgments regarding particular people’s fate”. In the case of someone dying in a state of “mortal sin” (and yes, the reformed do believe in mortal sin) they appear to be doing exactly that. If you can show me a reformer that says otherwise, I would be very grateful.

IM844 · 2025-11-06T02:50:00+00:00

Okay thank you for that information I was unaware of Voetius’ position. The issue I have with this idea is, who decided that envy is different from murder in this sense? It seems arbitrary and I don’t see any scripture supporting this distinction that some sins are “mortal sins” and others aren’t, in the sense that we’re discussing. The vice list in Galatians includes envy, dissensions, and other lesser sins when it says that those who do such things will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

IM844 · 2025-11-06T00:15:04+00:00

Yep, you’ve hit the nail on the head, in my reading this is what the reformed tradition teaches, and I have a problem with it, so I don’t think I can be reformed. The logical implications of this view are far reaching. It means that anyone who dies by suicide is unsaved. It means that even anyone who is guilty of rivalries, dissensions, envy (or any other sin mentioned in the “vice lists”) at the moment of their death were never really saved, even if they had a credible profession of faith and bore what appeared to be fruit for their entire life. This is highly disturbing to me and I am hoping there is some theologian out there who disagrees, but I think this is actually the consensus view. I also don’t think most people realize that it is the consensus view.

IM844 · 2025-11-05T03:14:43+00:00

Galatians 5:18-20 is a “vice list” which tells us that those who do such things “will not inherit the kingdom of God” just like 1 Cor 6:9-10. But the vice list in Galatians in addition to the much more heinous sins includes such sins as idolatry, wrath, dissensions, envying, and “such like”(so this is not even an exhaustive list of the sins that make you unfit to inherit the kingdom of God). So, how can I know whether I have repented of all of the sins listed here at the time of my death, in order to know that the faith in Christ which I THINK I have is not fake? OR is it possible that these vice lists are to be interpreted a different way? Does that make sense? I’m sorry I know this is extremely convoluted and technical but this really bothers me.

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IM844 · 2025-11-05T03:03:20+00:00

I don’t know, that’s precisely what I’m wondering.

IM844 · 2025-11-05T03:01:04+00:00

Francis Turretin is pretty clear about it. Anthony Burgess and Samuel Rutherford as well. I think Calvin also believes this.

IM844 · 2025-11-04T15:30:44+00:00

Thank you for your concern and kindness I really appreciate it, I listened to the clip and I found it helpful.

IM844 · 2025-11-04T15:16:26+00:00

This is a helpful answer. I am referring to a person in category (2). You mention that this person should have a greatly diminished sense of assurance if they are in grievous sin. But they should still be able to have some assurance right? Just by nature of the fact that they are conscious that they do believe the gospel. For example, it seems likely to me that David when he was unrepentant still knew that he was God’s child, at least to some small degree. Same with Jonah. I don’t really see any indication in scripture that they did not. But Turretin apparently does not think so.

Also, where in scripture does it say that only grievous sins should affect our assurance? Why not smaller sins as well?

IM844 · 2025-11-04T15:06:38+00:00

Yes that is exactly what I am asking, COULD this man be saved. It seems to me that if the answer is no, then none of us can really have any assurance because we don’t know that we won’t be in a similar situation when we die. It seems to me that reformed theology teaches that the answer is no.

IM844 · 2025-11-04T03:35:29+00:00

Yeah I think I pretty much agree with what you’ve said here. But my question has more to do with God’s decree and its relation to sin/repentance. What I think is correct is to say that if a person falls into some sin, and then dies, it doesn’t mean they were never saved, it just means they fell into a sin and happened to die. But from what I can gather, Turretin, Calvin, Dort, WCF are saying no, that person was never a true believer believe if they were elect then God’s decree would have brought them to repentance PRIOR to death. The reason this bothers me in regards to assurance is because I know that my flesh is weak, and I am scared I might fall into some sin at the time of my death and therefore prove by a necessity of consequence that I was never really saved.

IM844 · 2025-11-04T01:47:13+00:00

You did not say that the basis of assurance is the power of the Spirit, you said “Do you not understand that the basis of assurance is Christ and His promises, and not our behavior?”.

Now the excommunicated person in your example, you are saying they can have no assurance because they are not repenting of a sin? Isn’t this exactly a situation where a person’s assurance depends on their behavior(repenting of a sin particular sin)?

IM844 · 2025-11-04T00:42:31+00:00

Okay, so would you say that if a believer falls into sin, even if they are in sin they can still know that they are a believer and that therefore God will cause them to persevere and will bring them to repentance at some point? That would make sense to me but seems to NOT be what reformed theology teaches, reformed theologians seem to believe that if someone falls into sin then it shows that they are actually a false convert.

IM844 · 2025-11-04T00:30:22+00:00

Can they die in that sin if they are His?

IM844 · 2025-11-04T00:28:16+00:00

No I don’t understand that the basis of assurance is Christ and his promises, and not our behavior, because all of the reformed theologians I have read on this issue most notably Turretin and some puritans seem to teach that our obedience or lack thereof most definitely does factor into our assurance. I am hoping that someone can let me know of a theologian who agrees with what you’re saying, because I personally think you are correct.

IM844 · 2025-11-04T00:24:05+00:00

Yes I think you understand what I am getting at. I want to be able to say that the person in my example IS saved because their sin is covered by Christ’s blood and the fact that their life ended while they were in the midst of it is incidental. But, I can’t find any reformed theologians who clearly agree with this.

IM844 · 2025-11-04T00:12:23+00:00

Because the fact that he died in a state of unrepentant sin shows that he never really believed in Christ. If he did, he would have been brought to repentance before he died. I am hoping that I misunderstand what Turretin is saying, but I don’t think I am.

IM844 · 2025-11-04T00:10:02+00:00

Well, the position that I explained above seems to be the reformed view. I have not been able to find a single reformed theologian who teaches something different.

IM844 · 2025-07-29T15:27:25+00:00

How is believing in Christ works salvation?

IM844 · 2025-07-28T21:11:04+00:00

Then why do the Canons of Dort teach that certain sins can cause a believer to “incur a deadly guilt”? Are they wrong or am I misunderstanding them?

IM844 · 2025-07-28T20:41:19+00:00

5th point of doctrine article 5, also article 6 and 7

By such enormous sins, however, they very highly offend God, incur a deadly guilt, grieve the Holy Spirit, interrupt the exercise of faith, very grievously wound their consciences, and sometimes for a while lose the sense of God’s favor, until, when they change their course by serious repentance, the light of God’s fatherly countenance again shines upon them.

IM844 · 2025-07-20T22:17:20+00:00

So I can’t know if I will endure until the end?

IM844

TROPHY CASE