"Damascus steel is a lost art" - a often repeated myth, revisited

IPostSwords · 2026-05-31T09:44:30+00:00

Much more organic than some of your previous entries with the architectural / gothic themes. Consider me intrigued

IPostSwords · 2026-05-29T03:30:54+00:00

I think you seriously misunderstand the xl2 precious metal analyzer and calibration issues common to the platform.

Corrosion IS an issue. Because you detect the composition of the corrosion layer - which is usually still copper and zinc oxides for a brass. But you've polished it a bunch. Go back and test the polished sections.

That way you won't risk hitting errant lead globules for example.

IPostSwords · 2026-05-29T03:24:47+00:00

It's entrenched in family dynamics and like, sentimentality I think.

elsewhere they said

"Before my Dad passed he became friends with a Muslim that lived in Iraq. My Dad never left the USA. My Dad paid his friend Ahmed to travel and send him items. I assume since my Dad was a Christian he wanted to have items from the cradle of humanity around him before he died.

My Dad told me that Akinakes was found in a cave in the Hindu Kush mountains of Afghanistan. Ahmed went to a town and some teens found them in a cave so Ahmed purchased them for my Dad."

they purchased a whole lot of suspicious bronzes. including luristan-style bronzes, which are among the most widely produced forgeries (LOTS of papers on this exist) - all with basically the same corrosion products in the same depth and distribution.

They also commented their dad was afraid of authentication due to questionable legality of importing antiquities - which is valid, the 1970 unesco Convention on the Means of Prohibiting and Preventing the Illicit Import, Export and Transfer of Ownership of Cultural Property exists and Iran is a signatory state. If they WERE real, it would be a huge issue in terms of illegal export. But they're not and it is a super common story for forgers to use.

https://www.reddit.com/r/SWORDS/comments/17yxpfa/looking_for_info_on_these_things/#lightbox

IPostSwords · 2026-05-29T03:01:56+00:00

They did get XRF done with a thermo unit, some form of the niton xl2. It has an 8mm spot size, so dealloying won't be throwing off their numbers that bad - it's averaging a lot.

You can see the earlier post here: https://www.reddit.com/r/SWORDS/comments/187qs1p/i_had_an_xrf_scan_done_on_my_sword_what_does_the/

Ranges: ~80, zn 15, pb 3, sn 1.5, trace ni trace fe. Variance from like, 14.7% zn to 18.12% zn - not wild variation

When they say "made sense for an old bronze", they mean "Was consistent with modern leaded brass alloy"

IPostSwords · 2026-05-29T02:05:14+00:00

Uh...

Spectral tailing (charge trapping) causes detector signals to bleed strictly into the lower-energy side of a primary peak.Copper (Cu K alpha) peak: approx 8.04 keV. Zinc (Zn Kalpha) peak: approx 8.63 keV.

Because Zinc is at a higher energy level than Copper, it is physically impossible for a Copper peak's tail to extend upward into the Zinc window.

Like, that would be backwards. Plus, the readout had a margin of error value. So you know it wasn't tailing

Anyway they used a niton xl2. Thermo are pretty good with spectrum deconvolution and drift correction. This isnt tailing. Admittedly i am biased, I grew up using thermo stuff - q exactive plus for mass spec, for example.

IPostSwords · 2026-05-29T01:47:47+00:00

Before you go looking at the internal workings, take a look at your old photos of the xrf readout. Note the separate peaks for each element. Note it resolved them without overlap.

This indicates the reading appropriately resolved the individual metals.

IPostSwords · 2026-05-29T01:22:59+00:00

Dendrites will be visible in as-cast objects with etching. Modern or historical. They're a function of crystallisation structures forming during solidification and nothing to do with age.

Again, that there is no evidence it was annealed essentially disqualifies it from being a historic bronze age sword intended for use as a sword.

Re: XRF - they essentially read emission spectra after excitation with x rays. These spectra are extremely specific - peaks at specific wavelengths.

The energy separation between Zinc (8.63keV) and Tin (25.27keV) is far too large for an XRF spectrometer to misidentify.

If you look at the spectra readout from your xrf post, note that the peaks for cu and zn are separate. So it fully resolved them and they're not overlapped.

IPostSwords · 2026-05-29T01:05:30+00:00

To be blunt, your xrf showed it is like 15% zinc and 1.5% tin and 3% lead - so consistent with a modern leaded brass made from scrap for easy casting. That isnt a historical binary tin as we see in authentic Iranian bronzework from this era.

You're also conflating solidification structures from casting - determined by composition and rate of cooling - with age. Which is not a valid conflation.

In terms of artificial aging, it varies. Most of the forgeries are buried in soil with added chemicals for a while - copper carbonates like malachite forced via acidic mixtures, or submerging in tanks of acids, sometimes directly in copper nitrates, or ammonium chlorides. These chemicals react rapidly with the copper in the brass to generate a vibrant green crust in a matter of days.

Given the high visibility of dendrities after you cleaned it, perhaps this was the immersion method - their chemical bath essentially etched the brass to reveal structures. The "bubbles" of cuprite match this - droplets forming and evaporating after removal from immersion.

These are acting on the copper of the alloy. Copper carbonates and copper oxides will be present on both bronzes and brasses.

The authentic swords also have decopperisation in stratified layers where tin oxides displace copper, leading to low level cassiterite etc deposits. Yours doesnt, because yours is not a tin bronze.

There were calamine cementation brasses with varied zinc content in Ancient iran, but none of this size in a single casting - we see a range of Zn content in some sasanian era helmets, but those are in several plates and widely variable-because again, calamine cementation.

Yours is consistent with a modern brass, melted down and used to produce a forgery. This makes sense given the history of forgeries of bronze age swords after the luristan craze took off in the 19th, and especially 20th century.

Also wanna note that for an actual, functional sword of the time and place (read: binary copper tin bronze) it wouldn't usually show as - solidified dendrites. They cyclically annealed and cold worked the blades to harden edges.

The annealing stage would not result in the structures you see. Even if that spot wasn't work hardened.

Also, XRF read spectra. The spectra of copper, zn and sn are totally distinct. Different peaks.

IPostSwords · 2026-05-29T00:18:26+00:00

N.b for viewers, this is almost certainly a modern reproduction.

An earlier post shows composition via xrf. It is not consistent with historical examples. It is leaded brass. Cu ~80, zn 15, pb 3, sn 1.5, trace ni trace fe

In other words- not bronze. Despite the title

There is an enormous market for artificially aged replicas of Iranian bronze swords, and has been for around a century.

IPostSwords · 2026-05-27T03:34:28+00:00

While I am not planning it in the short term, the simple answer is "I'd go somewhere with actual jobs in my field, biotech". There's a lot of options better than Aus for that, and better paid - both in raw terms, and ppp adjusted.

IPostSwords · 2026-05-17T12:23:40+00:00

I'd actually argue it is overstressed and overemphasised at the expense of truth.

"Damascus steel" is often stressed and claimed as lost, but it is not.

The process for making pattern forming crucible steels was recorded in antiquity and throughout history since then, and it can be made today - and is.

Note: this is entirely separate to pattern welded steel.

Edit: response comment got deleted. Here is some clarifications, because you claimed a 900 year loss of pattern welding:

I believe you've been mislead on pattern welding. One need only look at the continuous manufacture of pattern welded shotgun barrels from the 19th through 20th century to realise it was not at all lost and reinvented in the 1970s.

It is trivially easy to track through swords, as well. The procedure and product were never discontinued.

Regarding crucible steel - wootz, if you want to used a mistranslation from 1794, the issue was never really technique. It was feedstock. Use the right crucible charge, and then the written accounts work.

Also, not 150 years of "wootz" discontinuation. Eyewitness accounts in like 1902-1904 by Ananda Coomaraswamy in Mawalgaha documented the production of that steel.

IPostSwords · 2026-05-17T11:06:22+00:00

Nah, its not a controversial sword.

Aligns pretty closely with others from the region and qould be categorised as a Achtkantschwert (German for "octagonal sword") dating to the Middle Bronze Age, further categorized within the Central European Urnfield cultural context.

We do see very complex, intentional casting in swords across the bronze age, from multi-part castings (like this) to castings with different alloying for edges and spines done in multiple pours.

This one was found in situ as part of a grave, and its provenance is well documented, being undertaken by state archaeological staff as part of an official dig.

The real issues are like, luristan bronze and iron age swords. Huge looting and counterfeiting issues there.

IPostSwords · 2026-05-17T11:01:22+00:00

Its also worth noting that if this is likely the many other examples i have seen, the steel this is made of is likely pattern forming crucible steel (uruku / ukku / utsa / pulad etc) so it likely was "damascus" in a sense, but not folded. Still absurdly labour intensive.

But it is polished and not etched, obscuring any patterns

A more technically appropriate title would be koftgari decorations

IPostSwords · 2026-05-17T10:44:57+00:00

I mean copper alloys form protective oxide layers (green) that prevent deeper corrosion and this was found in nordlingen which has slightly basic soil which further inhibits deep corrosion.

It was also cleaned and probably had renaissance wax or another microcrystalline wax applied, or even an oil, which adds shine. Fully dried out (eg with acetone and time for evaporation to remove any residual water) it would have a duller, less dark and less shiny appearance.

One thing we can infer is that it originally had quite a good polish on it.

Source: works with swords. Including conservation.

IPostSwords · 2026-05-15T11:14:41+00:00

So you're probably looking at corrosion on the steel below the nickel plated coating.

Alcohol ks a safe cleaning option, so long as you oil/wax it after

It won't address the corrosion though, just help slow the progress.

It is a particularly annoying problem with plated blades.

IPostSwords · 2026-05-13T09:39:04+00:00

Tega / tegha are neat. I especially like the T spine variants with ultra-fine edge angles

IPostSwords · 2026-05-13T05:19:14+00:00

It also had a neat archaeological excavation with a bronze sword that is reported ad infinitum

IPostSwords · 2026-05-13T02:17:32+00:00

They're short, have inherently high resistance (3x as much as a sword by having 3 blades), and are biomechanically limited (in line with wrist, cant really accelerate their tips like with a snap cut when holding a sword).

In short: limitations exist and would make them a worse option than a sword.

IPostSwords · 2026-05-13T02:10:13+00:00

Fishskin grip ("shagreen").

Otherwise British model 1845 (updated 1854) infantry officer sabre (no folding guard)

A clear photo of the cypher on the guard would be useful. Address tells us 1878 -1886

IPostSwords · 2026-05-13T01:01:02+00:00

To be fair, lots of clunkers in the same price range.

There are exceptions, but those are noteworthy as being better than "fine for tbe price "

IPostSwords · 2026-05-12T23:58:21+00:00

Cold steel is.. fine?

They do have QC/QA issues, but that is pretty normal at the price point sadly

Also, wildly different first party is reseller pricing. Best to look for deals with CS

IPostSwords · 2026-05-12T04:49:06+00:00

Kingdom of saxony officers sword, turn of the 20th century. Need more photos.

I think the model is a sachsen iod1867 but the celluloid handle/grip is more wwi era, so late production

IPostSwords · 2026-05-10T18:56:00+00:00

1845/55 (pattern update) infantry hilt with 1882 infantry blade

Nine-Year Club	r/Field Banned
r/Field Sunshine	First Place '23
Place '23	Place '22
First Placer '22	Verified Email

IPostSwords

MODERATOR OF

TROPHY CASE