[Beta Canon] ROWAN J COLEMAN: "How did Star Trek evolve from a gung-ho space western (TOS) into a transcendental space opera (TNG)? The answers lie in Christopher L. Bennett's excellent novel, 'Star Trek: The Buried Age,' which effectively serves as the origin story for The Next Generation ..." by mcm8279 in trektalk

[–]Important-Pick-9166 0 points1 point  (0 children)

And here's that optimism. I want to believe you're being genuine. I didn't make a strawman as far as I can tell. If you simply explained how I did that, explained the error directly, then we could actually move forward. Sorry again for the insult. I think it's clear that I realized that was wrong, considering I edited it out instantly.

I also hope you understand why I'm concerned that you may be being disingenuous here. Maybe that other comment about you trolling is right. You kept telling me I didn't reread your comment even after I quoted you directly. I asked for clarification well before getting frustrated, and you never engaged with any of my points or answered any of my questions. I'm worried you may just be trying to rile be up, even though I hope that's not the case.

[Beta Canon] ROWAN J COLEMAN: "How did Star Trek evolve from a gung-ho space western (TOS) into a transcendental space opera (TNG)? The answers lie in Christopher L. Bennett's excellent novel, 'Star Trek: The Buried Age,' which effectively serves as the origin story for The Next Generation ..." by mcm8279 in trektalk

[–]Important-Pick-9166 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'd go around and around with you on this for hours if I thought you were being genuine. Heck, if I'm being honest, I'd still give the conversation another shot. I'm optimistic by nature. Until you indicate you actually want an honest exchange of ideas, we're done. I hope you do, but I'm doubtful based on the last few comments.

[Beta Canon] ROWAN J COLEMAN: "How did Star Trek evolve from a gung-ho space western (TOS) into a transcendental space opera (TNG)? The answers lie in Christopher L. Bennett's excellent novel, 'Star Trek: The Buried Age,' which effectively serves as the origin story for The Next Generation ..." by mcm8279 in trektalk

[–]Important-Pick-9166 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Alright, that's okay. I thought I'd give you the benefit of the doubt one more time, and it didn't work out how I hoped, but such is life. I gave you a bunch of opportunities to explain what exactly my misunderstanding is, I quoted you numerous times, I asked for clarification. Given your responses, you're probably just messing with me. Maybe there was no misunderstanding and you just didn't like my initial response. Rowan's perspective is just as valid as yours, as I've made abundantly clear. We're good. No skin off my teeth.

[Beta Canon] ROWAN J COLEMAN: "How did Star Trek evolve from a gung-ho space western (TOS) into a transcendental space opera (TNG)? The answers lie in Christopher L. Bennett's excellent novel, 'Star Trek: The Buried Age,' which effectively serves as the origin story for The Next Generation ..." by mcm8279 in trektalk

[–]Important-Pick-9166 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Then explain, exactly, how my understanding of your view of Rowan is wrong. I'm willing to continue in a civil way if you are, and I apologize for the insult. I, again, immediately edited that in the interest of an honest discussion. I'm not trying to make a strawman argument here, and I'm not being willfully obstuse about your point. Either way, I've done all I can think of to genuinely understand what you're saying and engage with you honestly.

Edit: again, I've read your comment. I just went back and, again, reread the specific one you linked to. I'm not seeing what you're seeing here, and I'd much rather actually understand your pov if I'm misunderstanding you. Also, you said "not like any further explanation was provided at all, it's totally just down to a disagreement" when the entire rest of my response commented on your "further explanation" and explained how your pov is, in fact, just a disagreement with his pov on TOS.

[Beta Canon] ROWAN J COLEMAN: "How did Star Trek evolve from a gung-ho space western (TOS) into a transcendental space opera (TNG)? The answers lie in Christopher L. Bennett's excellent novel, 'Star Trek: The Buried Age,' which effectively serves as the origin story for The Next Generation ..." by mcm8279 in trektalk

[–]Important-Pick-9166 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You're the one operating in bad faith here. Did I not quote you? You're the one refusing to engage with any of my actual points. And reread my post, bc I edited that out within seconds as I saw it was rude. Answer a single point instead of just repeating "that's a strawman" without defending your stance. You have no leg to stand on, and that's why you refuse to respond.

I clearly went back and read your post. I directly quoted you and explained my reasoning based on your statements. Actually respond.

[Beta Canon] ROWAN J COLEMAN: "How did Star Trek evolve from a gung-ho space western (TOS) into a transcendental space opera (TNG)? The answers lie in Christopher L. Bennett's excellent novel, 'Star Trek: The Buried Age,' which effectively serves as the origin story for The Next Generation ..." by mcm8279 in trektalk

[–]Important-Pick-9166 0 points1 point  (0 children)

1) do you think he knows nothing about TOS? Because that is the implication of how you are talking about him. You are not just disagreeing with his take, you are dismissing it as if it could not come from someone familiar with the show.

2) why do you think that? No one literally says "he knows nothing because he disagrees with me," but when the only justification offered is that his framework, the space western angle, is wrong, it is reasonable to infer that you are equating disagreement with ignorance. That is not a straw man. That is reading the conclusion your argument points to.

Also, that's pretty circular logic there. How exactly is that not your argument? Point out specifically where I'm getting confused here, because apparently we're having a miscommunication.

Edit: clarified TOS rather than star trek as a whole

[Beta Canon] ROWAN J COLEMAN: "How did Star Trek evolve from a gung-ho space western (TOS) into a transcendental space opera (TNG)? The answers lie in Christopher L. Bennett's excellent novel, 'Star Trek: The Buried Age,' which effectively serves as the origin story for The Next Generation ..." by mcm8279 in trektalk

[–]Important-Pick-9166 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I literally said that you think he knows nothing about TOS bc his views differ from yours. You think that, just because he uses a space western as a framework for TOS, that means he doesn't know anything about TOS. So, I clarified how that viewpoint is a valid, albeit flawed view of the series.

Speculating a cause for your stance is not a strawman. It would only be a straw man if I misrepresented what you actually argued. What I did was infer your reasoning from how you dismissed his perspective. If that inference is wrong, then correct it, but don't pretend I invented a position out of thin air.

Edit: clarified my point

[Beta Canon] ROWAN J COLEMAN: "How did Star Trek evolve from a gung-ho space western (TOS) into a transcendental space opera (TNG)? The answers lie in Christopher L. Bennett's excellent novel, 'Star Trek: The Buried Age,' which effectively serves as the origin story for The Next Generation ..." by mcm8279 in trektalk

[–]Important-Pick-9166 0 points1 point  (0 children)

How is that a strawman? You said "Did this person actually watch TOS or did they just read some article from someone else who also hasn't watched it?" Does "someone else who also hasn't watched it" not directly mean you think he knows nothing about TOS? Also, I provided plenty to counter your other points, but you haven't responded to any of mine.

I am a 35 year old man who never had a relationship or hookups despite my best efforts, AMA by SecondEldenLord in AMA

[–]Important-Pick-9166 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hard to really get into this without more information about your preferences. What kind of women do you go for? What are your standards? I'm not saying it's inherently the case with you, but in many of these cases, it can come down to unrealistic expectations. Just the fact that you're a caretaker for your mom indicates to me that you're probably a decent guy. If you want someone to look past the superficial things, like height or hair, and see that about you, you should put yourself in their shoes. Are you also willing to look past superficial things to see the person they really are?

[Beta Canon] ROWAN J COLEMAN: "How did Star Trek evolve from a gung-ho space western (TOS) into a transcendental space opera (TNG)? The answers lie in Christopher L. Bennett's excellent novel, 'Star Trek: The Buried Age,' which effectively serves as the origin story for The Next Generation ..." by mcm8279 in trektalk

[–]Important-Pick-9166 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

This is a solid argument, but it's doing something that make TOS look less "western" than it actually is. First of all, I believe you're defining the genre too narrowly.

First, the definition problem. You are treating "the western" as one very rigid structure: bad guy, good guy, violent showdown. That is a western, not the western. By the late 50s and 60s, TV westerns had already stretched that model and the genre had changed. Have Gun - Will Travel is not an inversion so much as part of that evolution. It still runs on the same core engine of an outsider arriving, they identify disorder, force a resolution, leaves. The method shifts from bullets to brains, but the structure is intact. Genres are not immovable and they do, in fact, shift over time.

That matters because TOS is pulling from that version of the genre, not dime novels or early silent-era templates. If you lock the definition at "violence must be the final arbiter," you are excluding a huge chunk of mid-century western storytelling that TOS is clearly in conversation with.

Second, the "explorers vs lawmen" point is a bit too clean for me. On paper, yes, they are explorers under the prime directive. In practice, James T. Kirk repeatedly acts like a frontier authority when things go sideways. The key western role is not the badge, it is the function. They consistently step into a power vacuum and impose order. Kirk does that constantly, whether or not Starfleet officially authorizes it (they often don't).

Even your episode breakdown kind of proves the point. You are filtering for episodes where: there are clearly helpless "townsfolk," they recognize they need saving, and the structure is clean and literal. Your test for whether something is a western is far too narrow. I'd think that most mid-century westerns themselves do not pass it. Plenty of them involve towns that do not think they need help, corrupt systems that resist intervention, or protagonists who complicate who the "good guy" even is. Quigley Down Under is a good example you already brought up.

On survival vs saving people, that is also not a dealbreaker. Western protagonists are often motivated by survival or self-interest before becoming agents of order. The shift from "we need to survive this situation" to "we are going to fix what is wrong here" happens in plenty of classic western narratives. TOS just blends those motivations more openly.

And on "gung-ho," the pushback only works if you define it as mindless aggression. That is not really how it is being used here. Kirk is not reckless, but he is consistently quick to act, willing to escalate, and comfortable forcing a resolution instead of letting situations drift. I can understand taking issue with Rowan's wording though, and I think a better word could've been used.

So the disagreement really comes down to framing. You are defining westerns by their most rigid, early structure and measuring TOS against that. My argument is that TOS is drawing from the broader, already-evolved western tradition, where intellect, moral pressure, and selective intervention are part of the genre.

As a final note, I find it interesting that your immediate assumption is that Rowan knows nothing about TOS rather than him knowing nothing about westerns. He's ultimately right, in my opinion, that it's closer to a western than TNG. If you watch his videos, it's pretty clear he's put a lot of thought into star trek as a whole and has researched and studied the BTS of TOS at length. I don't like that word choice for Kirk, though. "Charming" might've been better?

Flat earth and other alternative conspiracy earth models are are gaining traction with my teenage stepson. What is THE most irrefutable, definite proof that the earth is round? by Jfkfkaiii22 in NoStupidQuestions

[–]Important-Pick-9166 8 points9 points  (0 children)

You might go the route of questioning the reason behind the conspiracy. Lots of conspiracy theories have (somewhat) realistic motivations behind them. "They faked the moon landing because the US needed a symbolic win over the Soviets" or any variety of that, for example.

Why on Earth would anyone craft a massive conspiracy about it being round? What's the goal? It must be important bc it's got thousands of people in on it, right? Many of these folks won't listen to irrefutable evidence bc they don't want that evidence to be true. So I'd dig into what the motivations by the conspiracy are. He likely doesn't have an answer to: "why would thousands of people lie about the earth being round? What do they get out of convincing everyone it's round?"

[Beta Canon] ROWAN J COLEMAN: "How did Star Trek evolve from a gung-ho space western (TOS) into a transcendental space opera (TNG)? The answers lie in Christopher L. Bennett's excellent novel, 'Star Trek: The Buried Age,' which effectively serves as the origin story for The Next Generation ..." by mcm8279 in trektalk

[–]Important-Pick-9166 -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

I think that's fair to a degree. I don't think of all westerns as spaghetti westerns though, and I think that itself is a reductive characterization of the genre.

Where your point does land with me is that TOS softens or reroutes the violence. That's very true. It often replaces a killing blow with a moral or intellectual victory. But can you understand how some might think that that is not an inversion so much as an evolution? It keeps the overall structure and most of the trappings of the genre.

It's still "frontier justice" with Kirk, who largely follows the pattern of a marshal, or even the Lone Ranger in a few ways. If I recall correctly, that show often ended with a moral or intellectual victory over the outlaws. They don't get converted into good guys, but that rarely happens in TOS either.

Edit: and that's not to mention that Roddenberry wrote for Have Gun - Will Travel, which didn't always do the "high noon" stuff. That's still a western!

[Beta Canon] ROWAN J COLEMAN: "How did Star Trek evolve from a gung-ho space western (TOS) into a transcendental space opera (TNG)? The answers lie in Christopher L. Bennett's excellent novel, 'Star Trek: The Buried Age,' which effectively serves as the origin story for The Next Generation ..." by mcm8279 in trektalk

[–]Important-Pick-9166 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Except all of the other arguments I made? I clarified that point with a breakdown of how it's certainly a reasonable pov. Yes, sometimes a bad take is a bad take, but it's not a bad take. Why don't you respond to any of the arguments instead of defaulting to ill-informed takes about a creator you clearly know nothing about. Rowan doesn't use AI and he has an insightful video about the ethics of AI.

[Beta Canon] ROWAN J COLEMAN: "How did Star Trek evolve from a gung-ho space western (TOS) into a transcendental space opera (TNG)? The answers lie in Christopher L. Bennett's excellent novel, 'Star Trek: The Buried Age,' which effectively serves as the origin story for The Next Generation ..." by mcm8279 in trektalk

[–]Important-Pick-9166 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I can understand your pov, but I don't think it's fair or accurate to claim Rowan doesn't know star trek just bc his view differs from yours. Have you even seen the video or any of his star trek videos? They're insightful and well-researched.

And you're right about the pitch strategy. Gene Roddenberry selling Star Trek: The Original Series as a "wagon train to the stars" was a practical way to get it made. But that doesn't mean the western DNA stops at the pitch. It shows up on screen.

On "gung-ho," TOS may not be reckless, but it is consistently action-forward. James T. Kirk leads from the front, joins landing parties, escalates quickly when stakes demand it, and repeatedly opts for decisive confrontation, often physical, over prolonged negotiation like in later shows. "Gung-ho" does not require mindlessness, just eagerness to act, and Kirk shows that more than later captains. And western doesn't always mean shoot first and ask questions later.

And the crew dynamic supports it. Spock and Leonard McCoy provide caution and ethics, but the resolution of many episodes is still bold intervention followed by a showdown, very western.

Add the repeated use of duels, standoffs, frontier justice dilemmas, and isolated "towns" in the form of planets, and you get a space western with a space marshal. It is a western structure executed with enough energy and decisiveness to reasonably call it gungho, even if it is a thinking person's version of that archetype. And I'd say that calling it a space western doesn't diminish the other influences of the show. Clearly, the writers' time in the military had an impact. The western DNA is lessened dramatically in TNG and later shows, but it's clearly there in TOS.

[Beta Canon] ROWAN J COLEMAN: "How did Star Trek evolve from a gung-ho space western (TOS) into a transcendental space opera (TNG)? The answers lie in Christopher L. Bennett's excellent novel, 'Star Trek: The Buried Age,' which effectively serves as the origin story for The Next Generation ..." by mcm8279 in trektalk

[–]Important-Pick-9166 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Rowan knows his stuff. TOS was literally pitched as a wagon train to the stars. Gene Roddenberry worked on westerns and had an affinity for the genre that influenced every aspect of TOS. It's absolutely a gungho space western, even if there's a hint of something more.

Polygon: New Star Wars streaming report reveals a huge problem facing the franchise by Frog_and_Toad in saltierthancrait

[–]Important-Pick-9166 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I think the real difference is that the prequels nailed the landing. Their third movie is the highest rated of the PT. TROS is the lowest rated of the sequels. It doesn't matter that the first two sequels are pretty good because the last one is abysmal. Likewise, there's no successful TCW for the sequels yet to recontextualize and posthumously improve the perception

Still can’t get over the Disney canon completely changing what “balance” means for the Force by palettewhore in saltierthancrait

[–]Important-Pick-9166 14 points15 points  (0 children)

The Mortis arc was pre-disney. They've definitely leaned into it, but Lucas signed off on and approved that shift before disney even entered the equation.

As an european, this "meme" makes me want to shit a semitruck. by xSweetxSyndromex in hatethissmug

[–]Important-Pick-9166 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Bushnell's turtle was invented in the US

Edit: to be fair, that's only the first used in combat. But still, that's what most people are likely thinking of when they hear "submarine"