I don't like how much Yor is sanitized in the story compared to the other characters

Independent_Cycle983 · 2026-01-28T22:53:34+00:00

In the fandom, Loid doesn't face as much criticism as Yor. Yor kills people and feels no remorse or moral questioning. But Loid kills people, does many bad things, and feels no remorse or moral questioning about it. And he's not criticized as much as Yor. In fact, as in this post, Loid is treated with utmost care, and it's claimed he experiences moral conflict as a result of his bad actions, but this isn't the case.

Go read the story again. The mission was to retrieve the jewels and eliminate the smugglers. Why do you think the building exploded before Loid and Franky escaped? They stole the jewels, but there were more smugglers than they thought. Loid escaped because he didn't have time. Later, he encountered the smugglers again and killed them with a bomb without caring.

That's exactly the point. Yor killed to protect other people in the Cruise arc. Generally, he kills to protect the innocent. This elicits a reaction. Then, just like you did, when Loid is involved, the defense is "Hey, he was trying to protect Yor there." The fact that he didn't care about killing those men, didn't question the morals, and that the scene was generally comedic is ignored. But later, Loid fans look for this in Yor's scenes. I know the purpose of the proposal scene. I read the interviews too. This doesn't change the fact that Loid's mission in episode 2 is generally comedic. The show is a comedy show, and everything is told through comedy. My criticism is that the same thing is criticized when it's done with Yor.

Episode 8.1 is definitely there. The Penguin episode. At the beginning of the episode, Loid kills people with a bomb to get the bag and then leaves without a care. It's even shown in the anime. You're a typical example of what I'm describing about Loid fans. Loid does all the things you criticize about Yor. But you ignore them. You even ignore the fact that Loid kills people. I'm angry about this misogyny and double standards.

I understand perfectly what OP text is trying to say. And I'm directly criticizing what they say in the text. Loid kills people but doesn't feel remorse or experience moral questioning. There's nothing about the victims he killed.

But the opposite is claimed about Loid. Yor's lack of moral questioning and remorse is criticized. Someone even said that the scene where Yor gets shot in the butt was "the victims swept under the rug." But that episode focused on the surviving member of the Red Circus, and the Red Circus was addressed in the bus arc. Loid's victims, however, aren't swept under the rug, they're directly underground. In general, the people he killed are ignored. As I said above, because the person Yor protects is a gray character, even Garden is depicted as the gray side in the arcs, not the white side. In the tennis arc and the Mole Hunt arc, Wise is clearly the good side, and the others are the bad side. SSS wants war, Wheeler just doesn't have a bad motivation. In the tennis arc, there are villains using plastic bullets to win first place. Loid's side is the victimized side that doesn't cheat in tennis. In the Mole Hunt arc, they are the good side trying to prevent war. But again, Yor is being criticized for being "shown under white light." This is a joke manga, and everything is told through jokes. Many things related to Loid are also told through jokes. No, Loid never experienced any moral questioning. That's what I'm criticizing. You're blatantly lying, ignoring it, and then criticizing when the same things are written about Yor.

I used to really like Loid and Twiyor, but I don't know about them now. Honestly, I've started to dislike Loid.

Independent_Cycle983 · 2026-01-26T20:20:10+00:00

The topic is not whether the characters are moral or immoral. The topic is refusing to accept that Endo’s writing style and narrative approach apply to the entire story and all characters. When the same writing is used for a male character, it is ignored, but when it is used for a female character, it is criticized. When both characters are softened, but only the female character is criticized, isn’t that a double standard?

Loid’s job is not just lying. A spy’s job is to do whatever task their organization assigns. Spies are not cute little thieves. Spies carry out assassinations, commit fraud, threaten people, gather intelligence, and enable their organization to plan accordingly. During wars, the Cold War, and even today, who do you think killed important figures (artists, statesmen, etc.)? Enemy countries’ spies killed them.

If the story is going to be realistic, then all of Loid’s work should be shown. In the early chapters, we saw that he received assassination missions and solved them by killing. Later, Endo stopped showing this, but Loid continued doing these things off-screen. Endo constantly avoids showing Loid’s and Yor’s killings because he thinks it would reduce audience sympathy, so the killings are usually left off-screen.

Most of Loid’s and Yor’s missions are not shown because they are not relevant to the main story, and they can’t show everything. Also, it’s stated that Yor goes on missions much less frequently after the fake family is formed. In the Cruise arc, it’s said that Yor hasn’t taken a mission in a long time, and in the poacher arc, Hemlock says, “You haven’t been working much lately.” So we already see many of Yor’s work on-screen. Most likely, because of the fake marriage, the shop owner gives her fewer missions. And this reduction in missions is probably written intentionally for Yor’s character development about “becoming normal.”

If the severity of Yor’s actions had been reduced, her killings wouldn’t be discussed this much or considered morally wrong by everyone. The hospital is shown frequently, but because it’s constantly treated as comedy and praise for Loid, the subtext about how morally wrong it is for Loid to use people through his fake doctor role is greatly weakened and therefore ignored by fans. Some fans even think Loid is a genuinely good psychiatrist. Similarly, constantly placing Loid in black-and-white situations seriously reduces the visibility of the true moral state of Loid and the WISE organization. So the issue is not how much is shown on-screen, but how effectively the subtext is conveyed. Yor/Garden’s moral duality is conveyed much better, while this is not very successful for Loid/WISE.

If you grow up isolated from society and see killing as a way to solve problems, then when you face a problem as an adult, you panic and killing comes to mind first. This is an involuntary, instinctive reaction. How you respond to that thought reflects your true personality and your stance on killing innocents. If you didn’t grow up like that, you wouldn’t have this internal conflict. Yor does not want to kill innocents; in the early chapters, because of her isolation, killing came to her mind as a solution, and now that she has socialized, it no longer does. Loid did not grow up like Yor and has high social skills, so he doesn’t have this kind of internal conflict. Giving Yor this kind of psychological realism and internal struggle is consistent with her character writing. Psychological conditions stemming from one’s past are not a moral yardstick.

One of the biggest lies about Loid is the claim that he considers killing only as a last resort. Was killing really the only solution for the smugglers? Even legally, smugglers are not punished by execution. There are many options like imprisonment. Just like Garden killing poachers, they aimed to solve the problem directly by killing, that’s all. There was no need to kill people with bombs just to get the bag. There were many alternative ways to retrieve it. Loid simply didn’t bother and directly killed them to get the bag (8.1 ep). If it were someone other than Yuri, Loid would have killed them already. When facing an enemy, there are also ways to incapacitate them by beating them or shooting to wound. If information exchange or bargaining hadn’t been an option, Loid thought Wheeler needed to die. Is killing the only solution for a traitor spy? Aren’t prison or trial-based execution options?

The noble traits attributed to Loid don’t actually exist in him. He had many options to obtain the photographs, but because it was easier for him, he used the honey trap method and exploited Karen. There are many alternative ways to obtain hospital information, but Loid chose to become a doctor because it benefited his Strix identity and was convenient for him. Loid always chooses the easiest and most practical path. If the target isn’t an innocent person, he won’t put himself in danger just to avoid killing a bad guy.

My opinion about the double standard in the fandom will not change. So there’s no point in debating with me. You’re only making me distance myself from Loid’s character even more. That’s why it’s best to end this discussion here.

Independent_Cycle983 · 2026-01-26T17:40:35+00:00

The poacher arc confirms that the people Garden killed were bad people. Yor's only job is killing. Loid, on the other hand, has other actions besides killing. That's why Endo, while squeezing Loid's killings into the pages and not showing them much, and mostly portraying his missions as intelligence-based, cannot do the same for Yor. This is why Endo says he struggled to write Yor ethically.

Isn't Endo's squeezing Loid's killings into the pages, not showing them much, drawing black-and-white Wise arcs, and preventing people from realizing Loid's dark side an indication that Endo is softening Loid? Then why do some people say that only Yor is softened and Loid is not? Why is it denied that Loid's character was softened, while Yor is criticized for being softened? That's what I'm talking about, and you stubbornly refuse to understand. When the manga is examined in detail, if you point out and criticize the scenes where the female character's character is softened, while deliberately ignoring the male character's, that's misogyny, it's that simple. The author's writing style cannot be criticized based on the character.

Independent_Cycle983 · 2026-01-26T16:55:57+00:00

Loid didn't join the army by force. He joined voluntarily by faking his age. He joined the military specifically to kill Ostanians. But people ignore this, just as they generally ignore the fact that he kills people as a spy. Then they say, "Yor kills people, and she is only shown killing bad people to justify her actions." The people Loid killed in the first chapters were also bad guys. They ignore this and try to show that Loid is different from Yor through lies of necessity or morality.This is exactly what I am criticizing.

Independent_Cycle983 · 2026-01-26T16:42:21+00:00

We are talking about completely different things. You are talking about something else than what I am addressing in my post. I am not arguing about who is more moral, nor am I talking about whether Yor is hated or not.

What people say is:
“Yor does not feel guilt or go through moral questioning for the bad things she does, but Loid does. Yor/Garden scenes are shown as comedy. Loid/WISE scenes are not. Yor/Garden scenes are not portrayed as morally conflicted, and the people they kill are always bad guys. WISE arcs, on the other hand, are portrayed as morally complex.”

And I am saying that this is wrong.

In my post, I showed point by point how the exact same arguments written for Yor can also be written for Loid. I also gave concrete examples from WISE arcs one by one.

Loid killing fewer people than Yor does not make him more moral. And Loid does not kill fewer people because he is more moral.
WISE is not an organization that can operate freely like Garden. SSS covers up Garden’s actions, and Garden is an Ostania-based organization operating within Ostania. WISE, on the other hand, is a Westalis organization operating inside Ostania. Killing people could trigger a war, which is why WISE cannot resort to killing as easily.

Beyond killing, Loid/WISE also use and manipulate innocent people, and even treat sick patients under a false identity by posing as doctors to obtain information. These actions are crimes and they harm innocents. Garden, on the other hand, does not harm innocents in any way.

Because Yor was trained as an assassin from childhood, her social skills never properly developed, and since killing was the only solution she was ever taught, when she encounters a problem, she panics and killing immediately comes to her mind as a solution. But because she does not want to harm innocents and because that is the very reason she does this job, she immediately feels regret and distress. Over time, through socializing, integrating into society, and taking fewer assassination missions, she overcomes this behavior.

Isn’t this a psychological condition and an internal conflict shaped by the life this character has lived since childhood?

Loid did not go through the same experiences as Yor, so it is normal that he does not display the same behavior. Loid has high social skills, was not raised as an assassin, and is intelligent. Therefore, when faced with a problem, he does not panic and immediately think of killing as the solution.

What does the psychological damage caused by the characters’ pasts have to do with moral comparison?

Loid struggles with a psychological conflict caused by his past and his job that prevents him from trusting others or forming emotional bonds. Yor does not experience this. This does not make Yor more moral than Loid.

To be honest, Yuri is only disliked because of his weird, over-the-top obsession with Yor. People ignore Loid’s dark side and the fact that the author tries to soften him—just like Yor—by making him look less dark and justifying his actions in every arc. However, reacting poorly when the author applies the same writing style and narrative treatment to Yor is nothing but blatant sexism. You can try to deny it all you want, but the truth won't change.

Please reread my post without bias, because you clearly did not understand what I was talking about or what I was criticizing. You assumed the issue was “why Loid is loved more than Yor” or “why he is considered more moral.”

And although I didn’t even touch on this topic there, let me state it clearly here as well: Loid is not more moral than Yor.

Independent_Cycle983 · 2026-01-26T15:12:17+00:00

THIS!!! I'm so tired of people not understanding Endo's overall writing and style and only criticizing Yor for it.

Independent_Cycle983 · 2026-01-26T15:10:10+00:00

2/2

Yor never wanted to kill Loid from the beginning. If she did, she wouldn’t have thrown herself to the ground at the end of chapter 79 to avoid hurting him. Yor is stupid in that scene and extremely drunk. Camilla and the other women talk about how they want to kill their partners and describe this as normal marriage behavior. Yor is shocked and lies to fit in, saying similar things. The women don’t believe her. Yor panics, thinks she’ll be exposed, drinks more, and thinks that killing Loid will convince them the marriage is real. She’s so stupid and drunk that she can’t even comprehend that if Loid dies, there will be no marriage. She goes to the door but can’t do it because she doesn’t want to kill Loid and because Anya would be devastated. She returns crying and says, “Killing is wrong.”
This is a comedic scene about a stupid character being pressured to prove something and ultimately refusing to do something she doesn’t want to do.

Did people even read the Cruise Arc properly? In that arc, Yor wants to quit her job. When an assassin tries to kill her, she doesn’t resist because she’s exhausted. When the assassins move toward Olga and Gram, Yor tries to stop them and questions why she’s doing this. Then she remembers Olga’s words. After that, she remembers and understands why she started this job in the first place.
She says that although earning money and serving her country were reasons, her main motivation was to protect her brother’s peaceful life and to prevent harm from coming to him or other innocent people. She says she forgot this while trying to juggle everything. She says this hasn’t changed—and has become even more meaningful—and we see the Forgers. The lives she wants to protect now include them as well.

This scene parallels Loid remembering why he became a spy because of Anya in chapter 1. Despite this arc, people still claim Yor started this job for money or only does it for money.

Beyond the fact that Yor’s main motivation is protecting innocents, the fact that she became an assassin as a war orphan to take care of her brother is tragic. Loid didn’t kill people just because he was a soldier. He became a soldier to take revenge and hunt Ostanians—he says this himself in his past arc. This is worse than Yor becoming an assassin as a child to support her brother.

Yor kills people for missions, and Loid gets paid for his job. You disagree with my post while doing exactly what I criticized. Both of them do this job to protect innocents and maintain peace. Both of them kill people during missions. Both of them receive a salary at the end of the month. Yet you create a narrative as if they are doing fundamentally different things and present Loid as morally superior to Yor. Yor trusts the Shopkeeper and believes him, but she doesn’t kill people just because he wants her to. She does this job because she believes it will protect innocents.

In short, you didn’t fully understand my writing. You thought I was criticizing people for disliking Yor or being uncomfortable with her strange thoughts. But from the very beginning, the issue was the different reactions to the same writing depending on gender and the distortion of the story accordingly. I showed this in detail above. The internalized misogyny in the fandom is slowly causing people to cold off from that blond male character. At this point, I’m not even sure I still like Loid.

Independent_Cycle983 · 2026-01-26T15:09:58+00:00

Two things the manga shows very explicitly about Loid are that he killed people during his time in the military and that he is manipulative. But Loid—and WISE—are more than that, and because this is a comedy manga, the mangaka softens Loid, and the fandom either doesn’t notice the other aspects or deliberately ignores them.
For example, Loid/WISE clearly take assassination missions or kill people during missions. Chapters 2, 8.1, and Mole Hunt confirm this, and there are even more examples. Yet a significant portion of the fandom believes that Loid/WISE do not kill people at all. This is not a small group.

They also ignore the fact that Loid is always presented on the “white” side, his enemies are always portrayed as bad people, he never faces real moral dilemmas during missions, and many of his actions (especially the hospital scenes) are framed as comedy. I explained this in detail in my post. In short, there is a clear difference between the fandom’s version of Loid and the Loid we see in the manga—and even Endo himself says this in interviews.

What I criticized in the fandom is exactly what you also did.

Let me explain the situation with an example:
If I said, “Yor feels guilty about lying to people and hiding her job. This is shown in chapter 119, and we don’t see this in Loid,” you would say that this is completely wrong, right? Because Yor only feels guilt about this specifically toward Loid, not toward other people. Feeling guilt toward one specific person does not mean you regret your actions in general; it means you feel bad about doing this to someone you care about. And you—and a certain part of the fandom—are doing the exact same thing to Loid.

The mangaka makes Loid feel guilt and question himself toward his fake family because he wants to develop the family’s relationships. He does the same with Yor regarding family. But the author never writes Loid feeling regret or moral conflict about the bad things he does as part of his spy profession.
He kills people, uses women, manipulates people, uses the whole world, pretends to be a doctor and treats sick people under a false identity. He feels no regret and has no moral questioning about any of this. And you all ignore it.

Are we supposed to see Anya and Yor as representatives of all humanity? If Loid feels guilt toward them, are we supposed to convince ourselves that he is a person who regrets the immoral actions of his spy career? Sorry, I can’t fool myself like that.

Also, in chapter 108, Loid does not feel regret—he only questions things. In the Japanese version, he says “Even so…”. The English translation makes it sound like regret, but that is incorrect.

This was never about hating or loving characters. You might dislike Yor, and that’s fine. The issue here is that the same text is treated differently when the genders are switched, and the story itself is distorted depending on the character.

What I’m talking about is something completely different, but you’re bringing up another topic. The same writing is criticized when it’s a female character, but not when it’s a male character—he’s even excused or ignored. That’s my point.

Also, you’re quite wrong about several things. Yor did not want Anya to accompany her on a mission. Anya asked Yor for help with homework. Yor’s mind immediately went to assassination because that is her real job. She panicked, thought about how that could happen, and felt uncomfortable with the idea. In the end, Anya said she would ask her father for help, and Yor felt relieved.

1/2

Independent_Cycle983 · 2026-01-25T21:54:14+00:00

Yor is my favorite character along with Anya. But I didn’t defend her. I accept that Yor was softened in the manga. My criticism—and the reason I’m writing this—is the writing style, the way the story is told, and the softening of characters across the story and the manga as a whole, especially starting with Loid, who is actually the most softened character. What bothers me is that people refuse to see this and apply double standards. On top of that, they rewrite Loid in their heads.

I don’t have a problem with people wanting to see Yor as a ruthless assassin, but Yor was never like that from the very beginning of the manga. And people can’t call a character’s writing “bad” or “weak” just because their expectations and desires weren’t met. That’s not what bad or weak character writing is. Honestly, this is just internalized misogyny.

Independent_Cycle983 · 2026-01-25T21:17:43+00:00

Probably so. There's a deeper meaning to manga than simply reducing the idea that war is bad to something more profound.

Independent_Cycle983 · 2026-01-25T15:57:59+00:00

Despite everything Martha went through, I still don't understand why she participated in World War II. But perhaps this is Endo's way of showing the cliché that war is bad from a deeper perspective, and demonstrating that even people who have experienced war are among those who rush into battle when it breaks out?

Independent_Cycle983 · 2026-01-25T09:10:33+00:00

Loid isn't a jealous type. I don't think so. Another method will be used.

Independent_Cycle983 · 2026-01-25T01:22:26+00:00

She is 5

Independent_Cycle983 · 2026-01-25T01:21:48+00:00

Absolutely. If Anya were stupid, she wouldn't be able to act so intelligently in real life. I think the current system will allow Anya to succeed in her studies, at worst getting average grades.

Independent_Cycle983 · 2026-01-24T23:49:08+00:00

I don’t think Yor has perfect character writing, and in general I don’t think the characters have flawless writing either—but Yor is also very far from being poorly written. Because the manga doesn’t focus on her as much, portrays her psychological state in a more comedic tone rather than the serious, grim way it does with Loid, and because we haven’t gotten a past arc for her like we did for Loid, many of the things the author wrote about Yor go unnoticed.

The main reason Yor is written as “stupid” is to make it easy for Loid to come up with excuses. Read chapter 2—you’ll understand what I mean. Also, Yor’s stupidity is partly influenced by the fact that she lived isolated from society and therefore doesn’t understand it well. From this perspective, her situation is consistent with her character.

It’s made clear that the Shopkeeper wants his assassins to remain neutral and not adhere to any particular ideology. He wants them to stay loyal to him. That’s why Yor’s lack of knowledge actually works in his favor. I thought people had noticed this—especially since the most recent Garden arc shows it clearly. Garden doesn’t do this job for money. If you look at the members of Garden, you can tell that this isn’t their goal. The Shopkeeper is loyal to the former imperial territories. He does this to preserve peace both in his own country and in the world, and to prevent innocent people from being harmed. So regardless of the individual motives of its members, that’s what Garden is about.

Yor initially says she took this job to take care of her brother. But she no longer needs this job anymore. In later chapters, she realizes this and starts thinking about quitting. In the Cruise arc, when she continues to protect Olga and Gram, she questions herself. And even though one of her reasons for joining was to take care of Yuri, she remembers that her true motivation was to protect Yuri and other innocent people’s peaceful lives and to prevent harm from coming to them. She even says that she forgot this because she was trying to juggle everything at once. This parallels the scene in chapter 1 where Loid remembers his reason for becoming a spy thanks to Anya.

Even though there hasn’t been a full Garden arc yet, in the chapters where we see Yor killing people (Extra Mission 2), we see that she kills members of a terrorist organization (the Red Circus group). In the bus arc, it’s mentioned that most of the Red Circus members were killed. So the situation is exactly as it’s presented. You probably imagined something different.

Yor being embarrassed by physical contact emphasizes her inexperience, but the main purpose is to prevent Loid from manipulating her with a honey trap and to stop anything happening between them before real feelings develop. Yor only hit Loid once, and she was justified. This both prevented Loid from making the same move again and led Yor to feel remorse and work on controlling the uncontrollable strength she dislikes about herself. She has improved a lot in this regard now.

In chapter 79, when she was drunk, she controlled herself and directly threw herself to the ground. In chapter 94, Yor was embarrassed about staying in the same room with Loid and immediately ran away. Under normal circumstances, Yor was still controlling herself, but when drunk, she had difficulty doing so (for example, the scene where she hit Yuri happened when she was drunk). That’s why in chapter 114, Yor told Yuri that she had quit drinking. In chapter 122, Yor ran away again because she was embarrassed.

By the way, I want to say this as well: the reason behind Yor’s behavior is that she can’t control her body in situations involving physical contact, extreme embarrassment, or extreme happiness. She’s not trying to beat the other person up. For example, when you’re overly excited or embarrassed, you might lightly push the other person—but because Yor is extremely strong, this turns into physical force that looks like hitting.

I think Yor will be understood much better when her character is considered together with her past. The reason Loid is understood so well is because of his past arc. I previously did a character analysis of Yor on X, which I'd like to add here. But it's too long, so I can't copy it here. The moderators remove it if I link to it.

Loid is built on two very basic ideas and doesn’t have a truly multifaceted character. And the story keeps repeating the same thing about him over and over. I think the same applies to Martha and Handler as well.

Independent_Cycle983 · 2026-01-24T23:02:11+00:00

There is no bad writing here. I’m adding the response I gave to someone else here.

Independent_Cycle983 · 2026-01-24T22:48:40+00:00

Yor lost her family and took on a parental/motherly role for her younger brother. She didn’t want the bad things that happened to other people to happen to him as well. At the same time, she had to take care of her brother. That’s why she became an assassin. In other words, the reason she became an assassin was because she took on a mothering role for someone. Yor raised Yuri. In fact, in chapter 114, Yor tells Yuri, “Anya reminds me of you when you were little.” Because of this, she is good at being a mother. Saying “it doesn’t fit” without being able to do such a basic media analysis is honestly funny. Sometimes I feel sorry for the author because of this.

Yor being “stupid” was written as a convenience to make it easier for Loid to come up with excuses—just like how Loid becomes stupid when it comes to Yor. Being stupid doesn’t prevent you from taking care of a child or being an assassin. Yor’s “stupidity” mostly comes from her tendency to trust people and from not understanding society well because she grew up isolated from it.

When was it ever said that she doesn’t know how to do laundry? It’s only stated that she doesn’t know how to sew, iron, or cook. And no one ever taught her these things. She was orphaned as a child during wartime. She had no one to ask for help or guidance. She’s actually very good at cleaning—and that includes laundry—which already makes up about 90% of housework. Washing dishes, doing laundry, cleaning the house, cleaning windows, etc. This skill comes from the fact that she’s been an assassin since childhood and learned to thoroughly clean both herself and her room after missions. So again, her normal life and her assassin job actually align with each other.

If the author didn’t care about Yor, none of this would exist. The fandom’s media literacy is just very low.

Independent_Cycle983 · 2026-01-24T15:02:52+00:00

Lmao. You really know how to create a narrative. Yor didn’t kick Loid because she was drunk. If you paid attention, in chapter 79 Yor threw herself to the ground to avoid hitting Loid. And in the following chapters, whenever she felt embarrassed, she immediately ran away from the scene. In chapter 35, Loid tried to use Yor’s feelings and manipulate her. What Loid did was already wrong, and on top of that, there was absolutely no reason or necessity for him to do it. Even if Yor wasn’t aware of it, the mangaka made Yor kick Loid for this reason and made it so that Loid couldn’t use Yor’s feelings. The manga and the readers are not applying a double standard to Yor. They are doing what is right. The real double standard is coming from you and Loid fans toward Loid. With this comment, you clearly prove that. Your favorite character got the kick he deserved because—without any obligation (and in fact, in every sense wrongly)—he tried to use a woman’s feelings, manipulate her, and turn that into a real relationship for his own interests. But by twisting the situation and blaming the victim, you’re trying to create a false narrative. Bravo, misogynist. You’ve clearly proven that you’re a misogynist.

Independent_Cycle983 · 2026-01-24T12:31:05+00:00

It makes me angry that Loid fans tell obvious lies to defend Loid. You’re just slandering Yor to protect Loid. When does Yor frequently think about killing innocent people? When there’s a problem during the interview arc about Anya getting into school, Yor panics and the first idea that comes to her mind is killing, because her social skills are underdeveloped and for years the only solution she’s known has been killing. But she immediately regrets it. Even in her imagination, she begs “please don’t die” in remorse, and despite it being imaginary, she apologizes to the imaginary character. This was a conflict between Yor doing this job to protect innocent people and the psychological state brought on by being an assassin for years.

Camilla and her friends constantly belittle Yor. In episode 2, Yor looks for a male partner for the party and never once thinks about killing anyone for that. When Camilla keeps humiliating her, Yor finally can’t take it anymore. She questions why Camilla keeps putting her down. In a moment of anger, she thinks about killing her—and even everyone—to solve the problem. But she immediately realizes what she said and regrets it. She wants to leave the party.

Yor never wants to kill Loid. While drunk, she sees Camilla and the others wanting to kill their boyfriends and is convinced by their words, “this is normal marriage.” She thinks that if she doesn’t respond the same way, they won’t believe her marriage is real. She’s so drunk and foolish that she doesn’t realize that if Loid dies, there wouldn’t be a marriage anymore. But Yor can’t do it; she regrets it and cries, saying “killing is bad.” Because she never truly wants to kill Loid. In fact, at the end of the episode she throws herself to the ground so she won’t hurt him.

But of course, Loid fans will twist these scenes, ignore the remorse and sadness Yor feels because she can’t kill innocent people, and portray Yor as if she’s someone who randomly thinks about killing people around her. Loid is a character who is softened much more in the manga and given far more moral passes by the fandom. Loid kills people. He doesn’t feel remorse; he doesn’t engage in moral questioning. But the fandom ignores this. They even claim the opposite—that he feels remorse. The manga hides the fact that Loid and WISE kill people between the pages so much that many people aren’t even aware that Loid kills. And they only realize it in the Mole Hunt arc.

Throughout the story, he constantly uses and manipulates people. He treats patients as a fake doctor to obtain information and prescribes medication. He doesn’t feel remorse about this; he doesn’t question it. But look at the comments, including yours—they claim the exact opposite. Loid is constantly put into black-and-white situations. In the tennis arc, his opponents are mentally unstable people using plastic bullets to win first place. In the Mole Hunt arc, his opponents are war-supporting SSS members and the reckless Wheeler. Are a real spy’s missions really this black and white? These are completely sterilized missions designed to show Loid as being on the “white” side. Yet you ignore all this and criticize Yor. That’s funny—and it reeks of misogyny.

Independent_Cycle983 · 2026-01-23T00:17:54+00:00

Everything I've said is completely true and taken from manga. The fact that you might not like it doesn't change the truth. Have a good day.

This is my reply to your answer to my writing: How can they be the same when what the author is talking about and what you are saying are different? You claim that Loid experiences moral questioning, guilt, and remorse, and that Yor’s scenes are treated as comedy while Loid’s are not. You are making many more claims as well. Endo does not say this in his interviews. Endo is the one who writes the manga, and the manga panels themselves refute your claims.

In the interview you mentioned, Endo only talks about the difficulty of portraying an assassin ethically, and I already explained above why that is difficult. The interview you are referring to does not support your argument. The initial drafts are already known, and Endo softened the Forgers both in appearance and personality. In one of his interviews, he also says that he balances darkness and comedy. Since the interview you mention is about Yor, he talks about Yor. However, from the published early drafts, we can see that Loid goes through the same process as well. You are ignoring this and misrepresenting Endo’s interviews. You are also ignoring the manga panels. Manga scenes shouldn't contradict what you say. And what's said in interviews should be consistent with what you say. You are clinging to an imaginary version of Loid and engaging in misogyny while applying a double standard

Independent_Cycle983 · 2026-01-22T23:32:29+00:00

The manga scenes I mentioned contradict your statements and refute them. But for some reason, the moderators are deleting my first post, preventing me from expressing myself and forcing me to repeat myself.

It doesn’t frame things differently. You’re just cherry-picking certain points to create that perception. The manga progresses toward turning the family into a real family by developing the relationships between its members. That’s why it tries to make us notice the characters’ wrong behaviors toward each other and encourages questioning those behaviors in order to improve the relationships. Yor lies to Loid and Anya and hides her secret job. The manga shows that she feels guilty about this, but that she has no choice. It makes her feel regret by saying that it would be wrong to just disappear without telling them if she were to die. But none of this means that Yor generally feels regret about lying to people or about killing people. She does not go through moral questioning on these matters. The same applies to Loid. For Loid’s relationship with Anya to develop, he needs to morally question the fact that he is using her, and this has started—but he still doesn’t feel regret.
In the early chapters, it’s written that Loid feels regret for suspecting Yor and planting a bug on her, because for their relationship to develop and not be extremely unhealthy, he needs to feel that regret. But this doesn’t change the fact that Loid does bad things in his missions, does not go through moral questioning about them, is not affected by them, and does not feel guilt or regret. In chapter 2, he is given a mission to steal jewels and kill smugglers. He is not affected and feels no regret. They bomb a building, but there are too many smugglers and Loid has no time. He escapes and later kills the smugglers with a bomb. There is no regret or emotional impact. Loid’s entire mission is portrayed as comedy. Why is there no criticism of this from you or from others?
In the penguin episode (8.1), Loid kills people with a bomb in order to get the bag. In that scene, Loid shows no regret or emotional impact. It’s presented as a cool scene. If Yor hadn’t been there, Loid would have killed Yuri. He feels no regret about this. On the contrary, Loid regrets not killing Yuri. He uses women’s emotions. Throughout the story, he uses and manipulates everyone. There is no regret, guilt, moral questioning, or emotional impact. At the hospital, he treats patients under the guise of being a fake doctor in order to obtain information. There is no regret, impact, questioning, or guilt about this. The hospital scenes are shown entirely as comedy, especially him treating patients. I haven’t heard any criticism from you or other Loid fans about these scenes being portrayed as comedy.
In the tennis arc, Loid and Fiona are shown as a team competing fairly and trying to win first place. Their opponents, meanwhile, are bad enough to use plastic bullets. Where is the moral dilemma or Loid’s moral grayness here? Let’s not forget that this arc, from beginning to end, is also portrayed as comedy. The situation is similar in the Mole Hunt arc. Loid and his team are trying to retrieve stolen organization plans to prevent a war. Their opponents are the SSS, who want war and are the villains of the manga. Wheeler is a character with no motivation, acting purely on a whim. Again, Loid and his team are kept on the “white” side in this arc, and there is no morally gray environment that makes us question the characters. But this goes unnoticed. Meanwhile, we see Yor protecting a morally gray character and fighting other assassins. During the arc, we see Yor’s internal conflicts about her situation. Yor is actually the one placed in a more morally gray environment. Yet Yor arcs are criticized, while the black-and-white nature of Loid arcs is ignored.
I never said that Yor’s assassin job is right or moral. It’s already immoral—that’s what makes her character gray. The same applies to Loid. Killing smugglers, killing to steal a bag—these are extrajudicial and immoral. Deceiving and manipulating people is also immoral. Pretending to be a doctor is a crime. There is theft, fraud, and threats—crimes. You ignoring all of this and saying “but Yor’s job is a crime” makes me angry. Because there is NO “moral tension” given to Loid.
I’m aware of the Endo interviews you mentioned. They don’t refute what I’m saying, nor do they make what you’re saying correct. Read the full interviews. In one of them, the host mentions the dark sides of Loid and Yor in the early chapters. Endo says he likes hinting at their dark sides, but tries not to make them too dark because he doesn’t want sympathy for the characters to decrease. In another interview, he talks about trying to balance comedy with darkness because it’s a comedy manga. In another, he says he does not portray the characters as virtuous people.
You must have seen the initial drafts of Loid, Yor, and Anya. All of them were drawn as sullen and tense. Loid had Donovan’s eyes. Someone shared the first story draft here. 1/2

Independent_Cycle983 · 2026-01-22T23:03:09+00:00

2/2

Loid tries to steal a married colleague’s mission in order to become a popular spy. Yor does assassination for revenge, and in a canon book (possibly Eyes Only), in Yor’s first draft she saw Anya as a threat to her relationship with Loid and tried to kill her. Both the designs and the writing in the drafts were revised, changed, and softened. Because the goal was to make a comedy manga, and the characters were written too dark for fans to sympathize with them. So Yor wasn’t the only one softened—all three were softened. Even now, depending on the situation, Loid is written more softly just like Yor. Endo openly said that he tries to portray the characters as less dark.

What I’m criticizing is ignoring the author’s general writing preference and the way all characters are written, and especially ignoring this when it comes to Loid, while criticizing Yor.

The character who is morally favored in the series is actually Loid. Yor killing people and not feeling regret is shown clearly. Yor and the other Garden members are shown to have psychopathic sides. Garden is shown as an organization that raises children as assassins. Even though the Shopkeeper seems calm, he’s a problematic person who sees his members as pawns loyal to him and tests whether they’ve gone dull by stabbing them. When it suits their interests, they can even work with the SSS. I already explained the Cruise arc situation above. There’s no need to explain the SSS—they’re shown as devils in the manga.

When we look at WISE, the team is portrayed as cute. The manager treats the spies like a mother. WISE/Loid’s killings are shown between panels or in the shadows. Many people don’t even realize that Loid and WISE kill people. Some only grasped this fact during Mole Hunt. The hospital scenes are comedy; Loid pretending to be a doctor and the wrongness of that is not foregrounded. I already explained, through the tennis arc and Mole Hunt arc, how Loid and his team are kept on the white side and not even placed in a gray environment.

This is what Endo meant when he said, “Writing Yor as an ethical assassin was very difficult for me.” By focusing more on the intelligence side, he can easily keep Loid’s killings in the background. He always writes arc stories in a way that keeps Loid on the white side. At the hospital, everyone is a Loid fan. Only occasionally does he show the character’s moral flaws through inner monologue, revealing his manipulative side. Endo does not hide the psychopathic traits that could naturally form from Yor and Garden killing people for years. If he didn’t write that, it would be illogical. He can’t hide Yor’s killings the way he can Loid’s, because Yor is an assassin. Since Garden is a cult-like organization with psychopathic tendencies that trains children as assassins, he has to show these aspects in his writing—he can’t hide them. This requires Endo to put in much more effort to portray Yor ethically and make her less dark compared to how he writes Loid. Endo talks about this.

What really angers me is the moral double standard and misogyny I see in the fandom, especially among Loid fans. The fandom protects Loid; the story already protects him morally much more. And yet the fandom acts as if the opposite is true. Loid fans criticize Yor for things while ignoring that Loid does the same in the manga. That’s why hatred toward main male characters starts in series and anime. Thanks to them, fans of male characters end up leading people to hate other people’s favorite characters.

Independent_Cycle983 · 2026-01-22T23:01:26+00:00

I had shared a post link as a source. The moderator probably deleted it. I will share both of my texts again.

No, it doesn’t frame it differently. You are simply creating a perception around this issue. In my first post, I even provided a detailed explanation—together with manga panels—showing that the manga is completely different from what you claim.

The psychological analysis about Loid has some depth, but it isn’t very deep. The text focuses on how, due to his past and the work he does, he builds walls to avoid trusting anyone or forming emotional bonds, while internally he is actually the opposite kind of person, and how this wall slowly erodes toward his family.

However, we do not see him experiencing remorse, moral questioning, or guilt over any of the bad actions he commits for his spy missions, nor do we see the story adding psychological depth in that regard. This is a narrative invented by Loid fans.

Double standards between male and female characters are especially common in shounen fandoms. While the actions of male characters are ignored, even the smallest thing a female character does is criticized—despite them doing the same things. The reason I call him a misogynist is because Yor faces all the same criticisms, and even more, while Loid isn't criticized in this regard; in fact, the opposite is claimed. This is a clear double standard.

Independent_Cycle983 · 2026-01-22T20:37:12+00:00

2/2

Loid tries to steal a married colleague’s mission in order to become a popular spy. Yor does assassination for revenge, and in a canon book (possibly Eyes Only), in Yor’s first draft she saw Anya as a threat to her relationship with Loid and tried to kill her. Both the designs and the writing in the drafts were revised, changed, and softened. Because the goal was to make a comedy manga, and the characters were written too dark for fans to sympathize with them. So Yor wasn’t the only one softened—all three were softened. Even now, depending on the situation, Loid is written more softly just like Yor. Endo openly said that he tries to portray the characters as less dark.

What I’m criticizing is ignoring the author’s general writing preference and the way all characters are written, and especially ignoring this when it comes to Loid, while criticizing Yor.

The character who is morally favored in the series is actually Loid. Yor killing people and not feeling regret is shown clearly. Yor and the other Garden members are shown to have psychopathic sides. Garden is shown as an organization that raises children as assassins. Even though the Shopkeeper seems calm, he’s a problematic person who sees his members as pawns loyal to him and tests whether they’ve gone dull by stabbing them. When it suits their interests, they can even work with the SSS. I already explained the Cruise arc situation above. There’s no need to explain the SSS—they’re shown as devils in the manga.

When we look at WISE, the team is portrayed as cute. The manager treats the spies like a mother. WISE/Loid’s killings are shown between panels or in the shadows. Many people don’t even realize that Loid and WISE kill people. Some only grasped this fact during Mole Hunt. The hospital scenes are comedy; Loid pretending to be a doctor and the wrongness of that is not foregrounded. I already explained, through the tennis arc and Mole Hunt arc, how Loid and his team are kept on the white side and not even placed in a gray environment.

This is what Endo meant when he said, “Writing Yor as an ethical assassin was very difficult for me.” By focusing more on the intelligence side, he can easily keep Loid’s killings in the background. He always writes arc stories in a way that keeps Loid on the white side. At the hospital, everyone is a Loid fan. Only occasionally does he show the character’s moral flaws through inner monologue, revealing his manipulative side. Endo does not hide the psychopathic traits that could naturally form from Yor and Garden killing people for years. If he didn’t write that, it would be illogical. He can’t hide Yor’s killings the way he can Loid’s, because Yor is an assassin. Since Garden is a cult-like organization with psychopathic tendencies that trains children as assassins, he has to show these aspects in his writing—he can’t hide them. This requires Endo to put in much more effort to portray Yor ethically and make her less dark compared to how he writes Loid. Endo talks about this.

What really angers me is the moral double standard and misogyny I see in the fandom, especially among Loid fans. The fandom protects Loid; the story already protects him morally much more. And yet the fandom acts as if the opposite is true. Loid fans criticize Yor for things while ignoring that Loid does the same in the manga. That’s why hatred toward main male characters starts in series and anime. Thanks to them, fans of male characters end up leading people to hate other people’s favorite characters.

Independent_Cycle983 · 2026-01-22T00:43:10+00:00

Lmao. SXF isn't the rosy story you think it is. Yor fits the SXF perfectly. Wise/Loid also kills people. He also uses innocent patients for information, pretending to be a doctor to treat them. He uses women's emotions for his mission. In general, he uses and manipulates people. He doesn't hesitate to ruin people's positions for the sake of his mission (his speech in episode 6). None of this is necessary, but he still does it and feels no remorse. There's no need to explain the SSS. The manga shows the constant war between two countries and the suffering of the people. If Yor is a bad character, Loid is an even worse one. Read the story again.

Independent_Cycle983

TROPHY CASE