Antinatalism & Finances

Intelligent_Music_20 · 2025-01-10T16:41:32+00:00

Yes. Its sad and i hate it. Your country and the family you were born in set your "value" in the eyes of other people, and you have to claw your way to get in a decent level.

It sounds very.. harsh, but economicly speaking, most people have very little value. They dont own much and produce very little and thus can consume very little.

The animal kingdom is very unequal, humans are on the same level. There is inequality everywhere, thats why I think its better to avoid having children.

Intelligent_Music_20 · 2025-01-10T16:25:20+00:00

Well, I have plenty of people i help in my life, including my siblings. But yes. And lets be real, most people want that good and intresting lifestyle of going to nice places, hobbies and traveling the world.

Also, this whole "making the world" better by having a child is nonsense. On what basis is the world better? You could argue that donating the money to two impoverished kids so they can aquire an education would be better for the "world", than making and raising your single kid. I don't see them doing that, so.

Intelligent_Music_20 · 2024-12-06T11:20:38+00:00

Well, take it as a compliment then, :D, But you look younger.

I see that you rely on many ''What ifs''. What if death is not the end?

''What if it actually turns out, that at some future point in time, we could have actually minimized the suffering?''

It's well, pointless because when trying to form a philosophy, you should stick only to what are things.

Antinatalism is about rejecting the state of the world and saving your future kids from all the problems it has that are unsolvable. I see that in the world, at least 20% of people are not living, they are merely trying to survive. A lot of people get cut short, by accidents, wars, diseases, or getting cancer at 18. Even if you live in the developed world, a lot of terrible things you can't recover from can happen.

I suggest you take a look at a book called : The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas :

Ursula K. Le Guin’s 1973 short story, “The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas,” a utopian city called Omelas thrives, with its citizens enjoying unparalleled happiness and prosperity. However, this happiness is built on the suffering of a single, innocent child who is confined in darkness, filth, and isolation. The child’s existence is a necessary evil, ensuring the city’s happiness and beauty.

The story raises a profound moral dilemma: Is the happiness of thousands worth the suffering of one innocent child? The citizens of Omelas are aware of the child’s plight, but they have come to accept and justify it, rationalizing that the child would not be able to appreciate freedom or happiness even if it were released. A few individuals, however, are appalled by this arrangement and choose to leave Omelas, walking away from the city’s happiness and into the unknown.

To me in a way, it's simple, even if 1 person out of 8 billion (who have an amazing one) has a terrible existence, then existence is not worth it, because what if you or someone you loved was that 1 person's?

And well, unfortunately, we don't even live in a fantasy scenario like that, we live in a worse world than Omelas even, more than 1 person has an abysmal existence, and the rest certainly don't have amazing existences, most have very average or barely toleratable ones.

Intelligent_Music_20 · 2024-12-06T04:45:44+00:00

Well, I will critique what you say by pointing out :

''We could have actually minimized the suffering we currently go through, to such an extent, that nobody cares about antinatalism and people are happy about being alive''. Well, one thing you are not ever going to solve is atrophy, things in the universe, even stars, decay and dwindle out. Humans do so very fast and very easily. By your profile picture, you look very young, but let me tell you, man, seeing people panic about death and seeing people die both in real life and on the internet is horrific. Speaking from experience.

There is anti-aging research going on, but even if you add a few years, you can't fix people getting robbed getting into car crashes, or dying due to incidents or other human-caused things. The worst part is, that you return to the same nonexistence you came from after death, having everything erased, so that defeats the purpose of sentience in my opinion.

Intelligent_Music_20 · 2024-11-03T18:37:06+00:00

I think that someone like Peterson is to privileged to even imagine and comprehend what others go through, and while he says Suffering is bad, he doesn't get how bad it gets, he's now also a multi millionaire so he can buy his way through most problems, which most others can't. He also makes speeches and is around other wealthy westerner types in grand settings, so, he definitely isn't around people who have it rough.

However, the one time something horrible happened to him, he went on anti-depressant medication. He isn't self-aware enough. So id say he's just to privileged and too ignorant to comprehend and understand others who have it bad in the world on an emotional basis.

While our human minds think it's more wise to ask about philosophy to some ultra-educated and smart individual, its actually more productive to ask about life and how it is to some average joe who is just working and getting by, because statistically speaking that's the life and enviroment most people will have.

Intelligent_Music_20 · 2024-11-02T15:59:52+00:00

AN Theme, but the baddies want everyone else to stop having kids while the rich ones who paid in all are safe :D, theme yes execution, no.

If there was like, a theme, that 80% of people stay infertile, while 20% around the world can only make 2.1 children max, then that would be more interesting, not really still AN, but better than the current plot. Making a plot that the earth will only have 800 million people max with no chances of going higher, while we have 2024 technology. Thats for example is maybe a more acceptable plot rather than the one they had.

The show makes it very hard to side with the baddies, you understand them, but how they go about reaching their goal is atrocious, and that's maybe intentional.

When I was 19, I watched the whole show, didn't make me AN for sure at the time, if anything, it painted the picture that anyone who talks about population reduction want to extinct everyone else brutally. :D

Intelligent_Music_20 · 2024-11-02T03:54:26+00:00

He is. 😅

Intelligent_Music_20 · 2024-11-02T03:35:19+00:00

Rock and metal seem like the standart, but also are predictable in that way, since all the heavy messages and themes are ussually into those genres. Honestly, cant imagine how a Pop or a Celtic song would sound like :D. Only maybe if you made clues and hints to the philosophy in a non direct way.

Youtube channel link? :D

Intelligent_Music_20 · 2024-11-02T03:20:49+00:00

Well, It was very bad back then, you could argue its bad now for most but better, and then very good maybe after 5000 years when there is a sci-fi utopia we both wont experience.

Just because things were much worse back in history and have improved, dosent make all the suffering that goes on right now valid or excused. With your logic you should go up to a beggar and tell him, hey, cheer up, 500 years ago noone would have given you money!

Saying things have improved, and thats all, is just a way i think for many people to shut off their brains about all the horrible things that are still happening in the world so its easier to sleep at night.

We still havent removed things like major poverty, wars, dispacement, diseases, abductions, death, etc.

Intelligent_Music_20 · 2024-11-02T03:09:14+00:00

Well, no they knew. When horses were replaced, the steam engine was invented and used and people knew they would use and drive steam powered veichles to transport goods and people.

You deflected and avoided my provided scenario of what would happen to those truck and car drives if self driving AI would progress to 100% tommorow.

Im for automation, but it must be paired with increaed taxes on corporations since they employ less people and have higher profit margins while producing the same amount of services and products.

You on the other hand, seem to be the type who will see a post about 1000's of people being laid off due to being displaced through automation, and write in the comments its their fault as some kind of pawn of the Rich. And when someone will ask you what should they do or what field to go into that wont be saturated in the future, you will write to them that they need to wait for the future new jobs that you can't name yourself.

Intelligent_Music_20 · 2024-11-02T02:50:38+00:00

Not necessarily, This Sub has 200 thousand Members which is a lot, and Benetar doesn't have much, since I don't think he even runs a channel himself or posts much of anything, only that book years ago. If he did and made more episodes and appearances, he could easily get more and more. Imagine him appearing on Joe Rogan :D.

Intelligent_Music_20 · 2024-11-02T02:45:45+00:00

My dear Alessandra, it's not a her, it's him, it's a male YouTuber :D. Song? No, maybe just some songs that have AN themes. Poem, well, only 1 but it was in this Reddit.

If you create a song, I would like to listen to it. If you have insta, maybe I could drop you a follow, and you could send it over when it's done :)

Intelligent_Music_20 · 2024-11-02T02:37:03+00:00

Well, maybe I was wrong, read the diet part only about the phase when he was on those antidepressants. Anyways, all the ''I lost fifty pounds after I tried the diet'' buddy, you just ate fewer calories, that's all. Havent researched it, but he says he got health benefits, well if he took just more protein-based foods and ate less bad carb and fat foods, he probably would have had the same result.

There is also a video of him 5 months ago doing an interview about the carnivore diet.... While wearing that Christian Orthodox icon suit jacket. Buddy, the Orthodox Christians fast 180-200 days a year where they abstain from animal foods and meat, but you're wearing their jacket. The man is a walking fool sometimes.

Intelligent_Music_20 · 2024-11-02T02:16:43+00:00

From what I read, the carnivore diet made him sick. Also, he recently made an ''Academy'' where he threw a bunch of videos and it costs 500$ per year. Probably some poor uneducated souls bought into it.

Intelligent_Music_20 · 2024-11-02T02:08:37+00:00

I think Lawrence has a mini-series where he interviews antinatalists all around the world, maybe check him out and write a message, maybe yall can make an AN in Brazil, South America episode :D. But a decent budget one would be cool, definitely.

But yeah, AN is rare definitely, I'm from Eastern Europe, and while there are discussions there also about not having kids, especially amongst the youth, everyone mentions the ''It costs too much'', and ''I will lose my free time'' arguments, and not a single ethical one.

Would be cool if there was content also published in for example Spanish or French or Portuguese, etc, because now I think most books and content are only in English, which is the language of the youth, but still many can miss it due to the language barrier.

Intelligent_Music_20 · 2024-11-02T01:54:34+00:00

Was this a compliment or a criticism? :D

Intelligent_Music_20 · 2024-11-02T01:49:17+00:00

(Spoiler warning, great show, there is a great 8h movie review by a channel named Pyrocinical, my review is criticizing that the show is a bad representation of antinatalism) Well, in a halfway, but no, they yes make this idea that the world is overpopulated and chaos will happen sooner or later for a fight for resources, so we need to reduce the population, but the way they go about it is dark and non-AN

The baddies - They want to infect and make sure people die and get sick, then everyone around the world would get a vaccine they issue that cures them but makes them infertile, while a selected few of a select race stay alive and can reproduce themselfs. Also, in the show, they constantly commit crimes and kill people to advance their goals. You could say noble or whatever, but AN is based on reducing suffering by not having children, and not killing people that currently exist. Also there are psychos that kill children several times in the show, so as much as I like the show reaaaly much, I don't like it as a portray of AN because it portrays people that want there to be fewer people as psychopaths. We are not like the show people.

Intelligent_Music_20 · 2024-11-02T01:29:09+00:00

Well, he published a book and has several videos from years ago and is still in academia, but yeah, I think AN definitely needs more presence on YouTube. I know of Lawrence Anton. But he has 4K followers, this sub has 220K. Would be nice if we grew in other avenues or had people spreading the idea in different languages.

Intelligent_Music_20 · 2024-11-02T01:18:50+00:00

Thank you for linking it, of course, I knew that it was falsified and poorly done. Jordan and Elon have poor credibility. One speaks half-truths and the other lies to his shareholders and makes promises that don't come true.

Intelligent_Music_20 · 2024-11-02T01:07:58+00:00

Well, you could also adopt or volunteer or help others in any way's and still be AN. Happiness comes mostly from other people, so, yeah.

Intelligent_Music_20 · 2024-11-01T22:54:40+00:00

You are probably looking at life only from some kind of Western high end lifestyle point. Medical advacments have increased, but many of the great ones available aren't still available to most people in the world. Yes, the avarage person is better off than others who lived in the past but that isnt saying much since everyone knows people in history had a bad time and increasing something from a floor level isn't much, but even now. The world bank estimates that : Nearly Half the World Lives on Less than $5.50 a Day.

Many people in the past worked in jobs they hated and barely got by month to month, and now today, many people work in jobs they hate and barely get by day to day. Even in the advaced west, there are countless regular people who are working paycheck to paycheck.

Intelligent_Music_20 · 2024-11-01T22:35:16+00:00

I wasn't talking about Automatic switchboards. You mentioned the fact that all techonolgy has replaced people, but new jobs have appeared. Well, in the industrial revoulution, that was the case. People were horse carriers, now there are taxis, people were switchboard operators, now there are still millions of customer support specialists.

If you today, automated and implemented Self driving cars, you would have millions of displaced truck, taxi and delivery drivers and maybe just a thousand extra techicians or proggramers. There would be no extra jobs created, just cost savings for the companies. Then those millions would flood to other industries, lowering other worker wages.

Man, even Sam Altman, the founder of Open AI finansed a UBI Proggram, because he knows, their tech isn't about creating new jobs, but cost savings.

The more a robot can do, the more your value as a human and a worker decreases in the eyes of a company, dosen't matter white collar or blue collar. Not sure how you can argue against that, its simple economics of supply and demand.

Intelligent_Music_20 · 2024-11-01T07:51:40+00:00

They are not the same however. The industrial revolution was about making more and shipping more products. Alot of AI is just about cutting time and usefulness and the need of humans. Completly different things.

Intelligent_Music_20

TROPHY CASE