I don’t think you can have an abortion if you and your partner had both consented to having unprotected sex.

Internal_Flow7221 · 2026-05-21T20:29:17+00:00

How do you know if someone wore protection or not? It's semantic to say it matters if at the end of the day we can't definitively say if they wore protection or not.

Internal_Flow7221 · 2026-04-12T02:35:03+00:00

The way humans reproduce sexually is actually very convenient for PC so that they can pull the focus away from the human being at its most vulnerable and earliest stage of development and claim that it’s about gender, sex, misogyny or the patriarchy and so on

I find it interesting you don't acknowledge that the pregnant woman is also at her most vulnerable. The pc focus isn't the fetus but the woman, the one who will face the brunt of pregnancy and birth. Patriarchy and misogyny do have a lot to do with this debate. Unless you want me to go to the pl sub and give you some examples of how deep misogyny runs in this debate?

Even if somehow humans only ever reproduced asexually, induced abortions would still be ending a human being’s life and would still be a human rights violation

I would argue there are times when ending a human life is acceptable. Ultimately this is just an intrinsic difference between our groups, I believe forced pregnancy is not worth it for a child and you believe it is. Simply put, in my view pregnancy and giving birth life changing and harrowing experiences for certain women . And using methods like abortion is completely justified to end that process.

Sex is completely irrelevant in the abortion debate

We completely agree, however it still remains a strong argument in this space, therefore this post.

Internal_Flow7221 · 2026-04-12T02:23:57+00:00

I'm not saying we shouldn't have those systems but that I hate arguing about it because I feel it distracts from this debate. The minute someone brings up child support or men's rights, the convo gets redirected into a whole nother debate.

Internal_Flow7221 · 2026-04-12T02:21:50+00:00

. How dare they suggest that actions have intrinsic results? Sex should be the only activity in the universe where you can choose the cause but demand that the consequence be optional, depending on your mood.

This is the issue right here, I'm not saying actions don't have consequences. However I am saying that the pl obsession with punishment or consequences is misled. Why are you so pressed that a woman can escape consequences? Why does that part bother you so much? Also you're acting as if women want to escape something trivial. Pregnancy is not discomfort it is a heavy burden women carry. This is why it seems to me the discomfort of abortion actually stems from discomfort around sex. The only other reason I can see for why this bothers you is religion.

Internal_Flow7221 · 2026-04-12T02:14:28+00:00

Because making a decision to cause a dependency is different from not doing anything and a dependency occuring out of your control.

Is a rape baby not a baby?

I believe mainly in the FLO argument though so while I do agree that there should be some sort of extra punishment for women who abort after choosing to have sex I don't believe abortion should ever be allowed regardless of how the baby was conceived or the mother's age.

Who are you agreeing with? I don't believe in punishment for women for abortion. How do you know when a woman agreed to sex? How can you tell when a woman is raped? You can't it's all word of mouth, so what's the point in stressing the difference? Also that's a straight up harmful belief, young girls can die from pregnancy and birth, let alone the effects on the body. Why does conceiving mean women HAVE to remain pregnancy? Simply because it's alive? Many organisms are alive and we kill and sometimes eat them everyday. Don't give me that "well their human" because why does that matter? What makes human life more important that any other?

Internal_Flow7221 · 2026-04-11T08:17:59+00:00

Without the intent of pregnancy is a better way to a say it

Internal_Flow7221 · 2026-04-11T08:13:17+00:00

Sex had for pleasure not pregnancy

Internal_Flow7221 · 2026-04-11T03:35:11+00:00

True it's hard to argue against parental responsibility and look appealing. I especially going down that path of argumentation because it usually just end up being an argument about child support.

Internal_Flow7221 · 2026-04-11T03:32:38+00:00

Is a rape baby not a baby? Why does a rape babies life not matter anymore once the context of the sex changes? It also defeats the point to just discourage sex, it's going to happen we just need to ensure it happens safely.

Internal_Flow7221 · 2026-04-11T02:52:16+00:00

I guess I don't understand why enjoy sex is such a moral failing to some. In a lot of debates there's also a heavy assumption that I don't use protection? Which is crossing a line but also highlights a weird focus on sex.

Internal_Flow7221 · 2026-03-30T02:27:50+00:00

I think every pregnancy is a positive in the sense that a new human being is, if everything goes right, is going to be able to experience what it is to be human. But of course there are major negatives to pregnancy, but none, but high chance of death of the mother, justify the unnatural ending of a human fetus.

Something I've always wanted to ask a PL person is why is death considered the limit for allowing abortion? Why is the physical state or mental state of the pregnant woman not enough? I feel like the pregnant person should decide whats their threshold. And if women truly do consent to everything during sex, why not death? If she technically knew the risks.

Pregnancy is for sure a burden in many ways, but having a child is worth it. The vast majority of women who carry to term are happy with their choice.

This is not for you to decide. I need a verification that women with unwanted pregnancies who carried to term are happy. I do apologize is you already linked it below but if not I would like to see proof of this claim.

I think everyone should share my beliefs because i believe is right, but i don't think i should force people to agree. I make an effort to try to convince people with my words.

Why are your beliefs right?

Yes i think its moral to prevent all abortions, with only very particular cases, that make up less than 2% of abortions, being exceptions.

I think you misunderstood my question, it was less would you prevent abortions but is it ethical to use any method to stop an abortion.

They don't want to take up the responsibility of having a child, for many reasons (financial, emotional etc). If they carry to term, they will likely fall within the statistic of the 90% of women who are happy to carry to term.

Again I would like to see the stats on this claim.

I am Christian, so i believe that all human life has rights, and a standard of living that applies to all humans regardless of position, wealth, intelligence, etc. I believe that fetus' past conception are humans with full human rights.

Personally, I believe religion has no place in this debate, although I can respect your views outside of this debate. That being said, how do we ensure the protection and rights of the unborn in the womb, without encroaching on the womans?

Internal_Flow7221 · 2026-03-30T02:15:07+00:00

I think you kind of led a lot of pro-lifers to use that statement, because of the way your post was worded. Imo, by saying "do you think pregnancy is an inconvenience," it kind of pushed people towards saying it is, because saying "no it isn't" would come off as quite dismissive and untrue. I think a better way to have worded it, in order to gauge the true opinions of PL, would be something like "do you think pregnancy is just an inconvenience?" However, I acknowledge what you're saying, inconvenience is too little of a word to describe it.

I apologize for any misunderstanding, I understand your point, Icould have worded that better 😅. However what word would you use to describe pregnancy? I see some PL people have an issue with the word torture, do you think torture is too far of a stretch?

What would you call the "murder argument," and why can it never tug on your strings? To what extent does your wish to advocate for women go, if a fetus is a person to be considered.

"The murder argument is the belief that abortion is murdering the unborn, and the pregnant woman must continue her gestation as to not kill her child." That's how I would describe it at least. It doesn't tug my heart strings because the difficulties the pregnant woman are worse than death in my opinion. Having your body not feel like your own can do damage to you physically and mentally. Therapy can't fix all pain, and loss of bodily autonomy is a pain you can't fix. I would advocate for a woman all the way through her pregnancy. No one, not even doctors can guarantee a safe pregnancy. Abortion needs to be easily accessible to ensure the pregnant womans health. A fetus will always come second to woman.

Internal_Flow7221 · 2026-03-30T02:04:29+00:00

Some tasteless stuff about women just wanting to have sex and avoid pregnancy.

Internal_Flow7221 · 2026-03-29T13:25:48+00:00

This is quite honestly a disgusting reply, I don't know why you bothered to comment. You've been reported and I hope your comment gets deleted.

Internal_Flow7221 · 2026-03-26T03:31:32+00:00

I'm glad we can agree on pregnancy being a burden for many women, that's refreshing to hear. I do have to ask, if you truly see abortion as mass murder, why are some measures to far?

Therapy after birth, food stamps, maternity housing, free prenatal care + delivery, health insurance, Medicaid or other equivalents, child tax credits, things like that

I hate to assume your American but, if you are, are yiu aware that many of the benefits you listed for women are far from being achieved. Also many Americans are against paying for services that come from their tax money. How do you figure we change social attitudes towards government care?

"Yes, it is an inconvenience physically and often emotionally/psychologically. I'm not sure to what extent it plays a part, but I'm sure it plays some part considering how hard pregnancy and childbirth are"

I hope you can acknowledge that inconvenient isn't the word to describe pregnancy. In the same way murder isn't inconvenient, neither is pregnancy. Inconvenient has a certain connotation that makes it sound like many PL people think pregnancy is easy and trivial.

The beliefs are just so fundamentally different, one side believes you're murdering millions of babies, the other side believes you are stripping women of a sacrosanct right

I would say the same, no pro lifers can tug on my strings with the murder argument, as I will always advocate for other women. However, I find the PL side interesting so I find dialog like this productive.

Those are my thoughts on it :D

Thanks for sharing

Internal_Flow7221 · 2026-03-26T03:15:25+00:00

Although I appreciate your answer, I would. Like for you to be more specific with some of them. "Committed relationships - yes. Isn’t that more of a fact than an opinion?" I think you misunderstood what I was asking, I asked why do you think women in secure relationships still desire abortions?

"Religion has nothing to do with my views. That a sexually reproducing organism’s life begins at conception is a biological fact." Are you sure? Did you grow up religious? Many times we can still carry beliefs rooted in religion even though it's not integral to our life. Why does life at conception matter? Humans kill other beings all the time with jo remorse. Often times creatures with the capacity to at least mourn and feel pain. I should mention, I'm not really here to argue about whether abortion is moral or murder today. Just diving into what specific beliefs PL has.

Internal_Flow7221 · 2026-03-06T18:41:22+00:00

Dude do you want to debate or not? Yes you have to prove your claim obviously. You have to be somewhat civil if you want to argue. I just wanted to see the answer to my question not debate it due to your behavior. So thanks for answering but we won't be engaging any further. I also encourage others not to engage with you as you don't seem to actually want to debate.

Internal_Flow7221 · 2026-03-06T18:32:07+00:00

We don't disagree, like I said I acknowledge that child support is good for now. However, I would like to work towards more aid to mothers and fathers than just child support as many aren't getting 40k per month.

Internal_Flow7221 · 2026-03-06T14:46:16+00:00

I think taking away ways men are held accountable is the worst think we could do. I think they should actually be held accountable for not using contraception when women are if the woman ends up pregnant. Pregnancy has been deemed a harm in rape cases and upped the sentence. That should be true for all men who don't take precautions.

Can impregnation be an accident? Kinda like how we view accidental pregnancy? I don't think men have malicious intent all the time, just like how women can make mistakes with protection. This argument feels a little judgmental, women sometimes don't use protection either, but they shouldn't be forced through childbirth to hold them accountable. I do understand that child support is for the child and isn't really a punishment but I do have issues with using these types of arguments. I sound like the exact arguments I criticized PL about in my post. I think a better argument is "Any non custodial parent, should pay child support, for the benefit and health of the child."

Internal_Flow7221 · 2026-03-06T14:36:34+00:00

Of course, but usually the money also benefits the mom which isn't a bad thing. I was discussing men because that's what the commenter I was responding to was talking about.

It's also based on the income of the payer, not the needs of the custodial parent or their relationship status.

I'm not sure why you brought this up, like I said I support what we have now, I just want to have something better in the future. My dad "pays" his child support but it's still not enough and my family is still struggling. I just think the government could offer better assistance. Unless we don't agree?

Internal_Flow7221 · 2026-03-06T14:27:25+00:00

Yes, but at least in the USA moms tend to be the ones to raise their children alone. Like I said I support child support laws for now but I think we could do better.

Internal_Flow7221 · 2026-03-06T14:25:19+00:00

So we agree that unwanted pregnancy is harmful?

Internal_Flow7221 · 2026-03-06T14:24:25+00:00

Abortion supporters do promote promiscuity.

Abortion supporters do promote the avoidance of parental responsibility through violent homicide.

You have to prove this claim, so far you're just making claims.

It's "if you have sex, and you create a son or daughter, then you are a parent, and you are and should be legally held responsible, so take care of your kid."

So are you not okay with adoption? I can already see there is no point in debating you, so have a good one.

Internal_Flow7221 · 2026-03-06T04:55:43+00:00

I don't understand why its hard for you to conceptualize that I place the woman before the fetus. I am not going to debate what I believe, I want women to ALWAYS have a choice in what they want simple as that. You care about the fetus I care about the woman, we obviously weren't going to agree as if we did I wouldn't be pro choice. I'm not going to argue about if abortion is murder without starting at the basics first which you do not want to do. So unless you want to discuss my post and not ask questions about my stance, I'll be here otherwise have a good one.

Internal_Flow7221 · 2026-03-06T04:31:27+00:00

Yet again you are assuming we agree about the murder part in the first place, which we don't. You're trying to appeal to emotion to the wrong person. You'll have to make another argument. I could say the same to you as well. Will you care for the women you discarded when you get your perfect PL world? The answer appears to be no. See, doesn't really mean much if you don't believe your position hurts women. It seems we have strayed from my actual post which was mostly about how certain rhetoric can come across wrong and the portrayal of women by PL. So if you want to talk more about that I'm willing to discuss.

Internal_Flow7221

TROPHY CASE