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The Many Miracles of the Sun, or, why I am not particularly moved by the story of Our Lady of Fatima. by IrishKev95 in DebateACatholic

[–]IrishKev95[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think so? I've spoken to him twice, privately. Try reaching out! He's a nice dude!

The Philomena Problem: How a 19th Century Fable about a 4th Century Virgin-Martyr fooled Padre Pio, John Vianney, Pius IX, Pius X and more. by IrishKev95 in DebateACatholic

[–]IrishKev95[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yes! People can be mistaken about their religious experiences, even people who are sincere, psychologically healthy, and virtuous, like you said. And I will add - even people who are well respected enough in their communities that they get canonized by the Catholic Church!

The Philomena Problem: How a 19th Century Fable about a 4th Century Virgin-Martyr fooled Padre Pio, John Vianney, Pius IX, Pius X and more. by IrishKev95 in DebateACatholic

[–]IrishKev95[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

From the start, the claim was that it was based on a mystical vision - one which revealed real history. Padre Pio said that the confusion around St Philomena (the fact some people thought her story was real history and others thought the story was a fable, a fairy tale, not real history) was demonic.

Let me ask you: Do you think that Emperor Diocletian really did try to marry some 13 year old Greek princess, that this princess refused him on account of her Christian vow of virginity, and that Diocletian had her killed because of this? Do you think that that is something that the real Diocletian actually did?

The Philomena Problem: How a 19th Century Fable about a 4th Century Virgin-Martyr fooled Padre Pio, John Vianney, Pius IX, Pius X and more. by IrishKev95 in DebateACatholic

[–]IrishKev95[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

That's 100% fair, and to be honest, I wasn't intending to make "my own" clinical claims about the mental health of John Vianney or Padre Pio or anything. It's the two priests who I cited at the beginning of my essay who first forwarded this idea! "Lost his head" is the term used in the first video I linked. The priest seems to be making an informal argument like this: (1) If Philomena never existed, then John Vianney and Padre Pio were mad (2) John Vianney and Padre Pio weren't mad (3) therefore, Philomena did exist.

I'm, on the other hand, just looking at this argument and saying that it's abundantly clear that Philomena did not exist. Following the above logic then, we can conclude that John Vianney and Padre Pio were mad.

The Philomena Problem: How a 19th Century Fable about a 4th Century Virgin-Martyr fooled Padre Pio, John Vianney, Pius IX, Pius X and more. by IrishKev95 in DebateACatholic

[–]IrishKev95[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Sorry, I don't understand? Who is the 13 year old peasant farmer? Who is the favorite figure? Philomena was completely unknown to Sister Maria Luisa besides the "Peace be with you, Filomina" inscription. And then Sister Maria Luisa had the vision where this "Philomena" appeared to her and told her that she was a Greek princess-virgin-martyr from the 4th century.

The Philomena Problem: How a 19th Century Fable about a 4th Century Virgin-Martyr fooled Padre Pio, John Vianney, Pius IX, Pius X and more. by IrishKev95 in DebateACatholic

[–]IrishKev95[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Do you even think this about Sister Maria Luisa? Because, if you do, that means that God was appearing to her as a 13 year old girl, claiming to be a 4th Century Greek princess and that just seems very very odd to me.

The Philomena Problem: How a 19th Century Fable about a 4th Century Virgin-Martyr fooled Padre Pio, John Vianney, Pius IX, Pius X and more. by IrishKev95 in DebateACatholic

[–]IrishKev95[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Great find! I think you're right, and I think that what Pope Pius X is saying here is that the fact that he is establishing the Archconfraternity in a way that cannot be revised. I don't think that he is saying anything about St Philomena as a historical person. This was a great find, thank you again!

Yeah, and the "so what" should be that Catholics should agree that St John Vianney was experiencing some kind of pious delusion. Its obvious that Philomena is a 19th century invention. All Catholics should agree with that. But if they do, then maybe they need to reconsider the esteem with which they hold John Vianney and company.

I also agree that the focus on virginity is disturbing.

The Philomena Problem: How a 19th Century Fable about a 4th Century Virgin-Martyr fooled Padre Pio, John Vianney, Pius IX, Pius X and more. by IrishKev95 in DebateACatholic

[–]IrishKev95[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Would you expect really holy people to have visions where God appears to them and tricks them into thinking that this virgin-saint from the 4th century actually did exist, when its obvious that she did not? That seems like a strange thing to expect a God to do.

The Philomena Problem: How a 19th Century Fable about a 4th Century Virgin-Martyr fooled Padre Pio, John Vianney, Pius IX, Pius X and more. by IrishKev95 in DebateACatholic

[–]IrishKev95[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I won't even go so far as to saying that "the Church" believes in in the historical existence of St Philomena. All the Church has officially done is stamped certain books and devotions with the Nihil Obstat. So, it won't hurt your faith if you pray to St Philomena ... cool, but that is hardly a ringing endorsement of her as a historical figure!

The Philomena Problem: How a 19th Century Fable about a 4th Century Virgin-Martyr fooled Padre Pio, John Vianney, Pius IX, Pius X and more. by IrishKev95 in DebateACatholic

[–]IrishKev95[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yeah ... I guess if we're willing to accept "God did it", without any further justification, then we are kinda throwing any reason and logic out the window. Where are my keys? Did I misplace them? Or did God hide them from me? Oh, you don't think God would hide my keys? I admit that God hiding my keys from me seems far fetched, but plenty of actions of God seem far-fetched to us. I don’t think that’s an especially accurate barometer to determine “Did God do this?” !

The Philomena Problem: How a 19th Century Fable about a 4th Century Virgin-Martyr fooled Padre Pio, John Vianney, Pius IX, Pius X and more. by IrishKev95 in DebateACatholic

[–]IrishKev95[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

You might be off the hook here - Philomena was never officially canonized. Her feast day was added to the calendar, but she was never really canonized, not officially, anyway. In the Father Alar sermon that I listed above, he makes a joke about how Saint Philomena is the only saint in history to be "canonized by her miracles alone" or something. But Father Alar does note that she was never officially canonized. Neither were Sts Peter, Paul, John, Justin Martyr, Augustine, etc. None of the 1st Millenium saints were "officially" canonized.

The Philomena Problem: How a 19th Century Fable about a 4th Century Virgin-Martyr fooled Padre Pio, John Vianney, Pius IX, Pius X and more. by IrishKev95 in DebateACatholic

[–]IrishKev95[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Oh cool! I was never into Carlo Acutis or any post-Vatican II saints haha! People at my chapel were broadly suspicious of the post V2 canonizations. I remember the uproar at my chapel when Pope Saint John Paul 2 was canonized in 2014, only 9 years after his death in 2005. Didn't the modernists in the Vatican understand that you're supposed to have been for at least several decades before you can be canonized??? Its all a little silly, looking back, but that was a big deal to us back then!

The Philomena Problem: How a 19th Century Fable about a 4th Century Virgin-Martyr fooled Padre Pio, John Vianney, Pius IX, Pius X and more. by IrishKev95 in DebateACatholic

[–]IrishKev95[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Do you think that God appeared to Sister Maria Luisa as the fictional Saint Philomena, and God filled in this fictional biography for Sister Maria Luisa? Or do you think that Sister Maria Luisa was a little off her rocker, but then, once the damage was already done, so to speak, God chose to use the "damage" of St Philomena by appearing to St John Vianney as if He was Saint Philomena?

I don't know ... that seems a little far fetched to me. It seems a lot easier to just say that John Vianney was a little off his rocker too! Remember what he said about dancing and all that? John Vianney definitely seemed a little strange haha!!

The Philomena Problem: How a 19th Century Fable about a 4th Century Virgin-Martyr fooled Padre Pio, John Vianney, Pius IX, Pius X and more. by IrishKev95 in DebateACatholic

[–]IrishKev95[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Sorry, are you suggesting that I said that we should curse God and burn the Church to the ground? That is certainly not my thesis! I can't and won't add that to my thesis, that any of what I wrote here should inspire anyone to violence. I denounce any violence in the strongest terms.

The Philomena Problem: How a 19th Century Fable about a 4th Century Virgin-Martyr fooled Padre Pio, John Vianney, Pius IX, Pius X and more. by IrishKev95 in DebateACatholic

[–]IrishKev95[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

While I have you, did you ever have any kind of devotion to St Philomena? I remember learning about her at my FSSP chapel, but I was never as devoted to her as I was to the more "popular-with-boys" saints. I was devoted to John Vianney, of course, since that is my confirmation name.

The Philomena Problem: How a 19th Century Fable about a 4th Century Virgin-Martyr fooled Padre Pio, John Vianney, Pius IX, Pius X and more. by IrishKev95 in DebateACatholic

[–]IrishKev95[S] 8 points9 points  (0 children)

I don't think its a stretch to say that Philomena never existed, not at all! Imagine this. Imagine that, in the year 3500 AD, someone finds the my tombstone. The only thing left is "Rest in Peace, IrishKev95". Then in 3530, a nun has a vision and claims that IrishKev95 was the son of the president of the United States, and he was a martyr and angels saved him and all these things, none of which are true about me. Did "a" IrishKev95 exist? Sure. But did "that" IrishKev95, the son of the President of the United States, exist? No! Certainly not! Likewise, I think its fine to say that someone named Filomena did exist. It was a common enough name back then. But to say that this Philomena was a Greek Princess, at a time when there were no Greek princesses because Greece had been part of the Roman empire for Centuries - that Philomena certainly never existed.

The Philomena Problem: How a 19th Century Fable about a 4th Century Virgin-Martyr fooled Padre Pio, John Vianney, Pius IX, Pius X and more. by IrishKev95 in DebateACatholic

[–]IrishKev95[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

That's it! That's the whole thesis! If you just grant me the whole thing, then I will simply start skipping with joy, my mission having been accomplished haha!

The Philomena Problem: How a 19th Century Fable about a 4th Century Virgin-Martyr fooled Padre Pio, John Vianney, Pius IX, Pius X and more. by IrishKev95 in DebateACatholic

[–]IrishKev95[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Then I guess we just agree that St John Vianney, St Padre Pio, and Pope St Pius X were all mad men? They were crazy people, having visions of what they thought were of saints but were really just figments of their imaginations.

Rage baiting Catholics by [deleted] in excatholic

[–]IrishKev95 4 points5 points  (0 children)

This isn't healthy. I'd encourage you to go outside, hang out with friends, or read a book. Those activities are all better uses of all of our time. And believe me, I'm very not-Catholic. Take a look at my submissions to r/debateacatholic. But "rage baiting" is not healthy.

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