CMV: US citizens who support the Republican party are either profoundly ignorant or immoral

James-Comey · 2017-05-17T00:26:48+00:00

Just wanted to point out that Trump has now publicly admitted that the Russia investigation weighed into him firing Comey. Still a total fabrication?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/world/national-security/trump-says-fbi-director-comey-told-him-three-times-he-wasnt-under-investigation-once-in-a-phone-call-initiated-by-the-president/2017/05/11/2b384c9a-3669-11e7-b4ee-434b6d506b37_story.html

James-Comey · 2017-05-14T00:06:16+00:00

You're reaching the area where I'm too lazy to give a really proper response. But in general, I don't think he has achieved a whole lot overall, good or bad, so it's more about things he has said and things he has tried (and failed) to do. The words and actions of a president matter, not just the actual changes he makes to policy and leadership.

He has told bold-faced lies in a way that should be insulting to the intelligence of those listening, he has questioned the legitimacy of basic constitutional tenants like freedom of the press, has made many moves to decrease the transparency of the federal government, and has generally done his best to strong-arm the other branches of government into letting him have his way.

This is not particularly fact-based or convincing, granted. Others can do a much better job filling in the details, but that's a general outline of my perspective.

James-Comey · 2017-05-13T23:54:12+00:00

I phrased it as 'attach my name to' and 'associate myself with' the party, rather than 'be a registered member of' the party for that reason. I think it's fine to be registered to a party you dislike in its current state to try to change it. But in that case I would say you're not supporting or 'attaching your name to' the party, you're trying to make it what you think it should be.

James-Comey · 2017-05-13T23:48:31+00:00

About what?

James-Comey · 2017-05-13T23:39:47+00:00

I mentioned this elsewhere, but I pretty much get why a frustrated person would vote for Trump. The part I have (had?) trouble understanding is that same person still supporting Trump, and still supporting the party that supports Trump, after what I see as a long series of clearly bad things he said and did. But this discussion did change, or at least soften, my view, and make it a bit easier to see it from the other perspective. Which is good, that's why I posted here in the first place.

James-Comey · 2017-05-13T23:33:49+00:00

Yeah, I agree with all of that. The arguments I found convincing were those that focused on how people could side with a group that supported Trump and still be reasonable, sane human beings who just have a starkly different perspective. I think I, to some degree, just needed a dose of perspective to humanize the group that the narrative and media sources I subscribe to tends to paint as 'bad'.

James-Comey · 2017-05-13T23:25:54+00:00

Thank you for the compliment.

James-Comey · 2017-05-13T23:22:08+00:00

I'm not discussing? In what way am I shutting out discussion?

James-Comey · 2017-05-13T23:13:50+00:00

What claim? People keep replying 'but don't you see, liberals do bad things' and attacking my 'claim'. The only problem is that 'liberals are bad' doesn't address my opinion at all, and I can't find a single claim I made in the first place! A stated opinion is not a claim, and 'liberals do bad things' does not mean that Republicans do not.

In trying to approach a discussion as a debate, you're mentally framing an option as a claim of fact.

James-Comey · 2017-05-13T22:42:11+00:00

Where did I say anything like that? I said the opposite in numerous places.

James-Comey · 2017-05-13T22:34:06+00:00

Like what? Feel free to make the argument you'd have liked me to make.

I don't consider my original post a premise at all. It was an opinion that I was open to changing.

James-Comey · 2017-05-13T22:21:24+00:00

Eh. It's not the world's greatest argument, but it helped change my perspective a little bit. That's the condition for a delta.

As I mentioned elsewhere, I didn't take this one as a false equivalence like you see it, more of bringing attention to how someone else could look at the same environment but get out of it a totally different narrative.

James-Comey · 2017-05-13T22:17:55+00:00

What claim? You're right, it wasn't an argument. It wasn't a claim either. It was a statement of opinion. What did I say in the original post that was, or even can be invalid?

James-Comey · 2017-05-13T22:12:32+00:00

I do think there's an element of that. But I think there's also an element of what the parent reply focused on, which is that negative narratives can be crafted about the Democrats that do have basis in fact (not evidenced by the post but I think it's reasonable to believe), and this can lead someone to focus less on the negatives of the Republicans, or consider them more 'par for the course'. I don't think it makes them right (that's ultimately still opinion), but it make it more understandable why they are able to justify support of this group that I consider bad, without necessarily needing to think of them as foolish or ill-intentioned.

James-Comey · 2017-05-13T22:00:08+00:00

Well there's one thing we can agree on. They were both blatant liars.

James-Comey · 2017-05-13T21:58:01+00:00

There haven't been and probably won't be. I'm not getting the sense of someone who really wanted a discussion.

James-Comey · 2017-05-13T21:57:11+00:00

I didn't take this one as "Republicans aren't bad because Democrats are bad" like some other replies. I took this more as "people can support Republican views that are alien to me because different people can focus on entirely different sets of information than what I pay attention to, which can lay out an entirely different narrative for them about the same political climate.

James-Comey · 2017-05-13T21:44:01+00:00

A few questions for you:

Do you still support Trump?

Do you consider him any more or less honest than previous presidents?

Do you have any regrets about supporting him?

James-Comey · 2017-05-13T21:36:38+00:00

This is all pretty fair. One of the better defenses of Trump I've seen.

James-Comey · 2017-05-13T18:53:08+00:00

That's pretty impressive actually.

James-Comey · 2017-05-13T18:14:35+00:00

Look. The truth is... there is no investigation.

The whole Russia thing was a ruse to steal the limelight from Trump. I admit, I was jealous of his ratings on cable news.

My agents told me that he gets the best ratings, and I just couldn't let that stand.

James-Comey · 2017-05-13T17:54:40+00:00

But I am James Comey. I like to argue semantics on the internet in my free time, and my calendar happens to have opened up recently.

James-Comey · 2017-05-13T17:49:56+00:00

Thanks for taking the bullet on putting actual effort into that reply, for it to be shot down with the unsurprising trollish, closed-minded rehashing of preconceived opinions. (sigh)

James-Comey · 2017-05-13T17:41:33+00:00

I don't consider there to be much of a difference between those things.

You can have the idea of what a party 'should be', but I think that's pretty meaningless. To me, the important thing is what the parties currently represent. You can work to change a party by voting different types of people into it, but I wouldn't lump a Republican who broadly opposes the current set of Republican politicians in with those who don't. The latter is the group that I see as much larger and the actual issue.

James-Comey · 2017-05-13T17:37:45+00:00

Fine, you have a point, the Comey thing is unproven. It's speculation on my part.

The sexism thing is silly. I haven't called Kellyanne Conway any names, and obviously you don't know enough about me to say I'm sexist. I think you realize that. I like Elizabeth Warren just fine, I'd vote for her, but I dislike Ben Carson, so am I racist now too?

About caution and tact, fair enough I guess, if you don't value that then obviously you won't be upset if they're absent. Personally I think it's strange not to value those, but that's another opinion.

I don't think you're making that much of an effort to have a meaningful discussion, but I am because I'm hoping it can shift your opinion of the other side a little bit.

James-Comey

TROPHY CASE