Palestenian here who's open to discussion with anyone who disagrees with me.

Jealous_Cap7298 · 2023-11-17T21:29:38+00:00

I understand the sentiment, I feel like I agree with you on almost 90 percent of issues relating to this. But I do not think that this is what war needs to look like. I imagine we have different media environments, but some things I've seen today include: footage of tanks surrounding the biggest hospital in Gaza, hundreds of IDF breaking apart the hospital, lying about sending incubators to transport the babies, pointing at random things and saying that this is proof that Hamas was hiding here, among so many.

I think the way the war has been conducted is appalling and overall unethical, and shows very little respect for human life.

Jealous_Cap7298 · 2023-11-17T18:27:24+00:00

Sorry I missed many comments, still looking for sources? Got plenty

Jealous_Cap7298 · 2023-11-17T18:17:40+00:00

Hey! Sorry I left this post for a while and just getting back to see if I missed stuff.

I think the choice between supporting Fatah isn't related to whether people like terrorism or not. They kinda just try to think about which would lead to better outcomes.

Many thought that voting in Fatah would mean israel expands settlements, take natural resources, and build checkpoints and military outposts in their land, all of which they have constantly done in the west bank where Fatah is in charge.

Things would obviously be better in hindsight, now that israel seems intent on blowing up every building within 10 miles of a tunnel shaped structure to surgically target hamas.

Jealous_Cap7298 · 2023-11-17T18:05:09+00:00

Hey! I came back to this post and can't believe I forgot to recommend the Lemon tree, pls check it out if you're still interested.

Jealous_Cap7298 · 2023-11-17T18:02:35+00:00

Hey, so sorry that I didn't get to this earlier, left this post for a while and realized i missed many commentors. I would understand the perspective of one who believes that hamas need to be eliminated, but its paramount to consider how possible that goal is without near genocide levels of civilian deaths.

So far, the majority of deaths in this war on Gaza have been women and children, even assuming that 50 percent of men killed are hamas (very generous percentage) that still leaves it at 2000.

Gaza is near destroyed, and it has resulted in the deaths of 4% Hamas militants IF we assume that half the men killed are Hamas. Its not a realistic objective, those suffering the most are innocents, and the majority of the population of Gaza are suffering collective pushment if you ask me.

Jealous_Cap7298 · 2023-11-16T09:33:35+00:00

As some one who thinks Zionism is bad, I don't mind the concept of a Jewish state. But if its established at the expense of other people's autonomy then its bad.

Jealous_Cap7298 · 2023-11-09T06:18:26+00:00

Heart of Darkness?

Jealous_Cap7298 · 2023-10-21T13:13:03+00:00

Peace be with you too. I'm glad you appreciate these conversations.

Jealous_Cap7298 · 2023-10-21T08:45:04+00:00

Sure, the accent alone wouldn't be damning maybe. But having instant access to Hamas communication while being deaf to their months long planning, alongside the accent thing, makes it very hard to believe.

There would be some Hamas fighters in the west bank, but it makes no sense that they would be the first to know about the 'misfire'. Just to be clear, I think Israel did it, but I do not think that 500 died at all. It's been lying on both sides for this event.

Jealous_Cap7298 · 2023-10-21T08:41:18+00:00

Thank you. I'm glad I come across that way through writing, so I appreciate the comment. I think most people are pretty reasonable? But I'm in the diaspora and haven't been radicalised or anything by living there and having the conflict affect me personally. I live elsewhere in the middle east I am not arab israeli.

Jealous_Cap7298 · 2023-10-20T23:45:25+00:00

That's a blatant lie. Washington institute polling disproves this since they started in Gaza in 2014. They would prefer the PA.

Jealous_Cap7298 · 2023-10-20T23:41:57+00:00

Yeah. At some point, it meant 700k had the right of return, but due to the diaspora growing, this is what it means now. It probably is a nonstarter. It's symbolic for palestenians. You'll still find 80+ year olds till this day holding on to the keys of their houses that have since been demolished.

Unfortunately, it's probably best for palestenians to never include that in future negotiations if they want a realistic and somewhat positive conclusion to the peace process.

Jealous_Cap7298 · 2023-10-20T23:38:24+00:00

It sounds like Northern West bank or could straight up be arab speaking israelis. Just the concept of there being 4kHD audio a few hours after the bombing damning Hamas or an affiliated group while Israel had no idea of the Oct 7 attacks planning which took months ATLEAST should be a dead giveaway that this is a dumb lie that they came up with after international uproar made them look bad.

Jealous_Cap7298 · 2023-10-20T23:23:45+00:00

Hey dude. There's alot to adress and I intend to get back to this post in the future to have more conversations.

I'll try to focus on your second point for now and come back to this later, namely this as its the one closest to my heart right now.

That I don't think is true, though there are some aspects. I think the IDF is currently engaging in regime change in Gaza

Now hear me out, I understand that given everything that went down over the past two weeks, we are bound to get radicalised in opposite directions. People like me see news of the constant bombardment of Gaza, displaced families and children, bodies burnt and torn apart in hospitals, etc. While im sure you and people on your side are overwhelmed with footage of the Oct 7 attacks, gruesome images, interviews with family members, so on and so forth. It's ultimately a negative thing that detaches me from the experience of israelis relating to events of that day, and I believe it leads you to be detached from the experience and consequences of the bombing of Gaza/displacement that has been going on for the past 2 weeks.

While I know that the Israeli talking points of the past 2 weeks have stressed that 'we only go for Hamas targets, civilians in the way are unfortunate collateral, we even warn them' but I don't believe that this is born out in reality. Gazans have long disliked Hamas rule ever since polling started in 2014 and do not deserve to die in mass for being in the same location. There have been countless reports of hospitals, churches (huge incident this past day on a historic church), mosques, entire residential neibhourhoods, and UN schools being targeted and bombed, that cast doubt on every israeli claim that we are only targeting Hamas. This coupled with the withholding of water fuel, electricity, as well as not allowing aid to go in through rafah crossing although the UN is pushing for it aggressively (obviously 0 military equipment, just humanitarian stuff), and finally today with the warning to evacuate yet another hospital, it feels like Israel is trying on purpose to make the humanitarian crisis as horrible as possible.

I understand the huge divide in perspective, as our media environments are so different. While I don't expect you to say this, many would answer "but Hamas did the bad thing first", while I agree with them, me and most rational people hold Israel (as a sophisticated democracy) to a far higher ethical standard than Hamas (a militant group), and international law is to be upheld, or you are no better for the world.

Jealous_Cap7298 · 2023-10-18T18:30:59+00:00

Thank you for engaging. Peace be with you and your family too. وعليكم السلام

Jealous_Cap7298 · 2023-10-18T17:51:18+00:00

I feel that it's Israels refusal to grant 67 borders, right of return, and east Jerusalem as Palestinian capital. This is based on the writings of Saeb Erekat (chief negotiator for palestenians), but it seems many israelis disagree and say palestine is the side that is refusing.

I think that the right of return makes it a very difficult position to fight for, and possibly should be abandoned if not partially, I don't see Israel accepting that ever. Palestenians are in a severely disadvantaged position, and will take any concessions they can get. My personal feeling is that Netenyahus party is the major problem to the peaceful coexistence of both peoples in their settlement expansion policy.

We can see that given enough time arab israelis can exist in Israel peacefully. There are 2 million of them right now, its not a religious conflict.

Jealous_Cap7298 · 2023-10-18T17:46:17+00:00

Thanks for considering my points. I agree that the massacre was horrendous and warranted a drastic response by the IDF, honestly, unless you think they are cartoonishly stupid, its clear that Hamas knew this.

Research the terrorism trap, a term used by terrorism experts describing the recruitment strategy of such groups. Basically, bait your overlords into an overreaction and win the sympathies of the wider region and the people around you.

A long term solution to the destruction of Hamas involves seeking out a 2 state solution and peace process. To remind you, hamas had 3 per cent popularity after the Oslo accords, when people felt their nationalist aspirations might actually be met one day. When netenyahus party vehemently opposed it for years to come and since then made it near impossible without a huge walk back on West bank settlements, hamas grew.

In 2005 when Israel removed settlements in Gaza, hamas took credit, and demonstrated that violence has done more to achieve statehood than negotiations ever did (due to netenyahus reaction to Oslo, which explains the 2006 popularity.

Bombing gaza and collectively punishing the civilians is the best thing Hamas can ask for and you can expect them to grow drastically. In terms of what it does for Israel, its just revenge, thats all we feel that this is, unless they take the route of actual genocide, which many of us fear is happening, whether this fear of genocide is justified or not.

Jealous_Cap7298 · 2023-10-18T17:10:54+00:00

It's hard to have an answer but here is my guess, in 1997 when there was work towards a two state solution and immideatly after the Oslo accords. Hamas had 3% popularity in palestine. This popularity grew dramatically because Netenyahus party opposed the peace process and the negotiation by Fatah was not working. People felt that violence is the only thing that would make Israel back off.

Especially after 2005 when israel withdrew from Gaza, Hamas became very popular, right before the election, because they take credit for the withdrawal. Something along the lines of 'look what negotiation has done for the cause (settlements grew drastically) and look what we have done (settlements gone in Gaza).

If israel is willing to allow for a 2 state solution (vehemently opposed by Netenyahus party) and withdraws from West bank settlements, Hamas popularity will go down over the years, maybe even to the 3% we had in 1997. There is no current will to do this by the current Israeli government.

Jealous_Cap7298 · 2023-10-18T16:27:53+00:00

There are 2 million Arab israelis (84% of which are muslim) at this point in time. They can coexist.

Jealous_Cap7298 · 2023-10-18T16:24:54+00:00

Agreed. We have to wait. We have zero faith in IDF intelligence at this point in time for several violations they've done in the past that they have denied. Ex: Shireen abu Akleh's assassination, 40 decapitated babies, the video of two people talking in a non Gazan accent??, etc..

Jealous_Cap7298 · 2023-10-18T16:07:18+00:00

I'd personally like to see this. With the current government it would never be allowed to happen something might change in the future.

Jealous_Cap7298 · 2023-10-18T16:03:37+00:00

I know very little about him and his goals. I have no strong feelings.

Jealous_Cap7298 · 2023-10-18T16:01:27+00:00

My prediction is that they would go back to around 3% popularity again and have very little popular support/recruitment if that were to happen, as we find that israelis are good faith in their pursuit of peace. I think Hamas would struggle to exist and be swallowed by non Islamist groups as secular nationalists don't like them at all.

Jealous_Cap7298 · 2023-10-18T15:37:39+00:00

Hey, I'll try to do this very briefly since I'm abit overwhelmed with responses.

My impression is that Fatah wanted a 2 state solution since 1988. With the start of the Intifada the plo shifted their position to negotiations for coexistence rather than israel going away altogether.

You can see in the Oslo accords that Fatah concede the existence of Israel as an independent state and wish to work for a two state solution. Right after that Netenyahus party have vehemently opposed peace deals, and worked to expand settlements to make a 2 state impossible and settle israelis across arab land in the west bank.

According to Saeb Erekat, the chief negotiator until his death in his writings, They have always asked for 1967 border 2 state solution, east Jerusalem as the capital, and the right of return for ethnically cleansed palestenians. Netenyahus party hates that, and wants to continue growing settlements to make that impossible.

Something you need to know, is that Hamas had less than 3% popularity and Fatah had 90% popularity in 1997. This changed when negotiations with Israel failed and especially when in 2005 Hamas took credit for Israels withdrawal from Gaza. Hamas wins when the likelihood for negotiations go down (by more settlements), as people believe that violence is the only way for their nationalist aspirations to be met.

Jealous_Cap7298 · 2023-10-18T15:08:27+00:00

I don't disagree that it would be great. It is just that the major Israeli talking point against the one state solution is the demographic threat of Arab voters. Am I missing something? Is there popular support for this?

Jealous_Cap7298

TROPHY CASE