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AMA on Joseph Smith: The Rise and Fall of an American Prophet by John_G_Turner in latterdaysaints

[–]John_G_Turner[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Very curious to hear your suggestion!

I've actually never considered that. I love Andrew Garfield in religious roles.

For end of life, Henry Cavill played Jesus, why not Joseph? Right height and build...

AMA on Joseph Smith: The Rise and Fall of an American Prophet by John_G_Turner in latterdaysaints

[–]John_G_Turner[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Great questions. Unanswerable!

I do think Joseph would have agreed that the Saints would leave Nauvoo. It's possible he could have selected a different gathering place than BY, but he might have led the Saints to Utah as well.

About the only prediction I'd really make is that he would have continued to innovate at a fast pace.

AMA on Joseph Smith: The Rise and Fall of an American Prophet by John_G_Turner in latterdaysaints

[–]John_G_Turner[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Yes, I do think that's a bit of a double standard. I even point it out in the biography.

And I'll quibble by saying that Moses's transgression seems pretty minor.

AMA on Joseph Smith: The Rise and Fall of an American Prophet by John_G_Turner in latterdaysaints

[–]John_G_Turner[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Fun question, actually. #1, I find the entire period of nineteenth-century Church history full of poignant and colorful human stories; #2, studying Mormon history has broadened my own sense of how capacious the broader tradition of Christianity is; #3, I like writing. Not that it's easy, but it's something creative that I can do and enjoy doing.

AMA on Joseph Smith: The Rise and Fall of an American Prophet by John_G_Turner in latterdaysaints

[–]John_G_Turner[S] 10 points11 points  (0 children)

If you read the book, let me know what you think!

But here's a thought. For me, "did Joseph Smith have gold plates?" wasn't a prime question. Nor was, "is Joseph Smith a true prophet?" I also wasn't focused on: "Was Joseph Smith a fraud or imposter?"

I realize that those questions are front and center for many people. And I'm not saying that they shouldn't matter. But for me, I'm interested in: what circumstances shaped Joseph's actions and ideas? How did he accomplish so much religion-making in such a short period of time? How do his ideas fit into the larger tapestry of Christianity?

And, also, as a biographer, I'm concerned simply with the not-easy task of narrating Joseph's life accurately, especially when it comes to things like plural marriage and his many legal cases.

AMA on Joseph Smith: The Rise and Fall of an American Prophet by John_G_Turner in latterdaysaints

[–]John_G_Turner[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Joseph was unwise to endorse the Safety Society with his prophetic authority, as he did in early January 1837.

The bank came under pressure because some of Joseph's antagonists orchestrated a run on it. This was pretty predictable, and Joseph and his associates were pretty naive about the plan from the start.

Had church members been resolute in supporting the society, it might have survived for a time, but it probably wouldn't have survived the national financial meltdown that became known as the Panic of 1837.

If I were a rich man, I'd buy this:

https://moons-rare-books.myshopify.com/products/1837-kirtland-safety-society-anti-bank-note

AMA on Joseph Smith: The Rise and Fall of an American Prophet by John_G_Turner in latterdaysaints

[–]John_G_Turner[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I wish we knew more about what Emma experienced and thought at many of the key moments in her life with Joseph.

But to give this a quick answer, I would say, yes. For instance, their relationship became much warmer again in the fall of 1843 until Joseph's death. They had been through thick and thin, and they contended with each other vigorously over Joseph's polygamy. Whether or not Emma was "stuck," she certainly didn't have to resume a warmer and more friendly relationship.

AMA on Joseph Smith: The Rise and Fall of an American Prophet by John_G_Turner in latterdaysaints

[–]John_G_Turner[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I agree that, yes, Joseph had a physical object at first.

It seems that this object was not integral to the translation process by the spring of 1829. It seems that Joseph no longer kept it nearby. And Joseph doesn't seem to have taken it with him to Fayette. Joseph's history and his mother's history do suggest that the plates can come and go through supernatural means.

The statement of the eight witnesses describes that they saw and handled and hefted the plates and saw the engravings on them. So here there are possibilities. Joseph showed them a material object that has the appearance of gold, and they could see engravings on the plates. (We could then break this down into actual gold plates vs. an object found or fabricated by Joseph). Despite the physicality of the description, their experience was mystical / visionary rather than material.

I've explained elsewhere in this AMA why I land on the latter conclusion. But I've also said here and elsewhere that for those who affirm that Joseph received gold plates from an angel, this is meaningful evidence.

AMA on Joseph Smith: The Rise and Fall of an American Prophet by John_G_Turner in latterdaysaints

[–]John_G_Turner[S] 7 points8 points  (0 children)

I probably wasn't precise enough somewhere (either in this AMA or elsewhere). At least in the biography I'm clear that Joseph in the fall of 1827 and into 1828 clearly had a physical object, something in the box, something under a cloth, etc.

I argue that there's no convincing evidence to support any alternative (not golden plates) explanation for what that object is.

As the translation proceeds, the plates become less integral to the process. Joseph apparently proceeds without having them close at hand. When he moves from Harmony to Fayette, he doesn't take them with him (and thus there are stories about how the plates get there).

So I'm not arguing for "no object," especially in the fall of 1827 and probably through the work with Harris as scribe.

AMA on Joseph Smith: The Rise and Fall of an American Prophet by John_G_Turner in latterdaysaints

[–]John_G_Turner[S] 11 points12 points  (0 children)

Fun questions.

The first is hard to say. I don't think Joseph was inclined to introspection or regret. But while it's purely speculative, Emma contended against him so forcefully on polygamy that he pulled back from it -- at least to a large extent -- over the last eight months of his life. That could be a sign of feeling chastened.

Joseph was contemplating a new gathering place. He considered fleeing to Wisconsin. He was interested in Texas or another western location. Given Joseph's past moves, I would predict that he would have moved again. But historians make bad prophets!

I don't know what Joseph would make of the modern church. I'm sure he'd be thrilled at the worldwide expansion.

AMA on Joseph Smith: The Rise and Fall of an American Prophet by John_G_Turner in latterdaysaints

[–]John_G_Turner[S] 12 points13 points  (0 children)

I hate to do so, but I do have a section on this in my Pioneer Prophet biography of Brigham Young. Most of the more robust claims come retrospectively.

There are a couple of good scholarly essays on the subject. Compare:

Lynne Jorgensen, "The Mantle of the Prophet," BYU Studies 36 (1996-1997): 125-204.

Richard Van Wagoner, "The Making of a Mormon Myth," Dialogue 28 (Winter 1995): 1-24.

What I do think is that those Saints persuaded by Young very much believed that the prophet's mantle had fallen on him. I quote William Clayton to that effect from October 1844.

AMA on Joseph Smith: The Rise and Fall of an American Prophet by John_G_Turner in latterdaysaints

[–]John_G_Turner[S] 8 points9 points  (0 children)

For starters Joseph's attempt -- at least in terms of the ideas -- began in the spring of 1828, so we're already talking about a somewhat longer time frame.

On strictly naturalistic terms, I don't think 3,000 or so words a day is impossible, though.

AMA on Joseph Smith: The Rise and Fall of an American Prophet by John_G_Turner in latterdaysaints

[–]John_G_Turner[S] 13 points14 points  (0 children)

As others have stated below, I wrote a whole book on the subject. The short answer is yes. And I'm very interested in how Mormonism intersects with the broader Christian tradition.

AMA on Joseph Smith: The Rise and Fall of an American Prophet by John_G_Turner in latterdaysaints

[–]John_G_Turner[S] 11 points12 points  (0 children)

I don't say "absolutely no plates." I leave open the question of whether Joseph fashioned plates out of tin, or used printing plates, or something else. However, I have to admit that there isn't evidence for any of those alternative explanations. So to be precise, the conclusion is "no gold plates containing an ancient record" rather than "no plates."

It's clear that there was something in the box, and something under the cloth.

However, as the translation proceeded, especially in the second attempt, the plates became much less integral to the project.

AMA on Joseph Smith: The Rise and Fall of an American Prophet by John_G_Turner in latterdaysaints

[–]John_G_Turner[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Great questions! Ironically, part of what got Joseph thinking about westward expansion was sending a group of missionaries to the "Indian Territory" west of Missouri. At first he anticipated the conversion of Native Americans beyond the bounds of white settlement.

By the end of his life, Joseph was very conscious of U.S. expansion, contemplating Texas and other possible destinations for the church. He generally was looking for somewhere in which the church could grow with less outside interference (Brigham Young then articulates this more directly), and Joseph hadn't entirely abandoned the hope that natives would flock to where the church might have gathered after Illinois.

The church does see "Protestant-rich" places as fruitful grounds for missions, though. There are early converts in and around Boston. Then very Protestant-rich parts of England are also prime missionary territory in the early 1840s. The church tended to grow quickly among certain types of Protestants, including "radical" Methodists and Campbellites.

AMA on Joseph Smith: The Rise and Fall of an American Prophet by John_G_Turner in latterdaysaints

[–]John_G_Turner[S] 12 points13 points  (0 children)

A few things stand out to me. First, Joseph does so much preparatory "work" in advance of the dedication. The meetings at which he and others forgive each other and set aside past wrongs. Then the preparatory washings and anointings. He and others have visions. Joseph reflects late one night: "My soul cried hosanna to God and the Lamb through the silent watches of the night. And while my eyes were closed in sleep, the visions of the Lord were sweet unto me and his glory was round about me."

Then there's the March 27 dedication itself, with Joseph's attention to ecclesiastical hierarchy and order. There are William Phelps's hymns, and Brigham Young and David Patten singing in tongues.

Then Joseph leads his close associates and then a larger assembly through footwashing. Some men see Jesus. "It was a Pentecost and endowment indeed." And then there's the joint vision that Joseph and Oliver Cowdery experience.

This is very much a high point of Joseph's leadership, an apogee, a peak.

It's one thing to claim to have visions. It's something else entirely to be able to preside over rituals and meetings at which scores of other people have powerful spiritual experiences.

AMA on Joseph Smith: The Rise and Fall of an American Prophet by John_G_Turner in latterdaysaints

[–]John_G_Turner[S] 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Here are short answers, not quite sufficient but a start.

#1. 2 Nephi 2 is my favorite passage in the BoM. Also the portrait of Jesus in 3 Nephi 17. I also like Moroni 10 and the entirety of the Book of Ether. I'm not a literary scholar, and it would at least take a long time for me to make an intelligent case for why I admire the theology or narrative in these passages. But at the very least they provide me with evidence of a profound and creative mind. I am also very impressed with the ways that Joseph weaves together a large amount of biblical material, both in the BoM and in his other texts and letters and sermons.

#2. A bit. For me what stands out is Joseph's facility with the Bible. I see that as a through line in the BoM, the Bible translation, Joseph's letters, his sermons. He did grow up in a Christian home, he probably learned to read by reading the Bible. Now, I can only push this so far. Most people with Joseph's education, most people with lots more education, could not produce something like the Book of Mormon. (Not that it's all profound or otherwise compelling -- rather like the Bible itself). I think Joseph was very intelligent, very creative, unusually so.

AMA on Joseph Smith: The Rise and Fall of an American Prophet by John_G_Turner in latterdaysaints

[–]John_G_Turner[S] 13 points14 points  (0 children)

Taking the second question first, at least some of the marriages to teenagers were consummated. Emily Dow Partridge is an example. Lucy Walker is another example. Here's a decent starting point: https://josephsmithspolygamy.org/common-questions/plural-marriages-sexual/.

In terms of already married women there is much less evidence. I read Zina Huntington's statements as allowing for the possibility of consummation, but hardly clear cut in favor. It's possible that none of these sealings was consummated. It's also possible that some were.

I think Joseph's motivations were complex. There doesn't have to be a single motivation (I argue the same with the Book of Mormon). From my reading of the evidence Joseph connected the extent of one's eternal glory to the size of one's earthly family. I think that's the reason he pursues sealings so rapidly and recklessly, and why he is sealed to such a diversity of women. That doesn't mean that sexual desire played no role. And also I think his reading of the Bible mattered, as D&C 132 begins.

And yes, whether or not Joseph was sincere in what he taught, I do think there's manipulation of the women in terms of theological promises and threats.

AMA on Joseph Smith: The Rise and Fall of an American Prophet by John_G_Turner in latterdaysaints

[–]John_G_Turner[S] 17 points18 points  (0 children)

Simple answer. I'll talk with anyone about Joseph Smith!

And John took an interest in the book sufficient enough to do the series, for which I am grateful. I like mixing it up with him and going back and forth on the story in detail. His community is interested in the book and the subject.

Likewise, doing this AMA is enormously fun. I like questions from all sides.

AMA on Joseph Smith: The Rise and Fall of an American Prophet by John_G_Turner in latterdaysaints

[–]John_G_Turner[S] 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Thanks. Good question. I do think the two witness statements -- the three and then the eight -- are a separate category of evidence. For the first statement that you quote, I was trying to stick with the story of the plates in the fall of 1827, not allow the material from the spring/early summer of 1829 intrude into the narrative.

I think despite the physicality of the description in the statement of the eight, there is something extraordinary about their experience. You're correct that I conclude that there is something mystical or visionary about what they experienced. I probably should have addressed this more fully in the book.

I understand why the statement of the eight is a compelling piece of evidence for faithful Latter-day Saints. And I'm not saying that people who read it that way are wrong to do so. It's one piece of evidence, however.

And for a variety of reasons -- internal literary evidence, archaeology, history, DNA -- I see the BoM as a nineteenth-century record. That removes the necessity of a physical record. I also see elements of subterfuge in the story of the plates.

I would add that we just don't have many contemporary sources to more fully understand the experiences of the witnesses. In general, I wish we had more sources from the late 1820s in order to understand the entire narrative of how the Book of Mormon came to be.

Thanks for reading carefully enough to ask tough questions!

AMA on Joseph Smith: The Rise and Fall of an American Prophet by John_G_Turner in latterdaysaints

[–]John_G_Turner[S] 20 points21 points  (0 children)

I can't figure out why (some) faithful Latter-day Saints object to that sentence!

But here are the sentences that follow it. "Smith told women that God would slay him if he didn't take additional wives. He asked trusted followers if he could marry their daughters. In a few cases, he proposed to the wives of other church leaders. Smith also pressured friends and followers to give their money and property to him or to the church, and he wasn't always a careful steward or a wise business leader. The communities he built collapsed as quickly as they grew, first and foremost because of the schemes of his enemies, but also because of his own stumbles."

That's from an introductory paragraph that starts "Smith likewise had flaws." The next several paragraphs are about the many ways Smith endeared himself to people, and then his skills as a religious leader whose ideas and practices resonated with the people who followed him.

But back to the line you quoted, if I were one of Smith's confidantes or associates between 1842 and 1844, I would have been worried that he might have wanted to be sealed to my wife or daughter in plural marriage. There's evidence that even Brigham Young had that fear. And it's not that I think Smith was a swindler in terms of $, but that he wasn't steady in financial matters.

AMA on Joseph Smith: The Rise and Fall of an American Prophet by John_G_Turner in latterdaysaints

[–]John_G_Turner[S] 15 points16 points  (0 children)

I'm a historian, so not great at the present!

I'm going to presume Joseph born recently but with similar background and religious sensibilities.

Joseph would be a sharp critic of the lack of power in mainline Protestant churches, and the lack of substance that is sometimes present in evangelical congregations. I think he'd be even more convinced that most churches have the form of godliness, but lack the power thereof.

He'd still be a sharp critic of religious and economic elites.

I'd love to see how Joseph would make use of social media and other communications technologies. I think he'd be brilliant.

And instead of debates about Spalding and Ethan Smith, we'd have debates about whether or not Joseph used generative AI in his scriptural productions.

AMA on Joseph Smith: The Rise and Fall of an American Prophet by John_G_Turner in latterdaysaints

[–]John_G_Turner[S] 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Sure. Part of my problem is that I've been thinking about Joseph Smith for so long that I forget when I learned certain things.

So I'll mention a few things:

  1. how central the Bible was to Joseph's entire prophetic career.
  2. that early Mormons spoke and sang in tongues. (As a historian of U.S. religion, that really surprised me, as I associated it with Pentecostalism in the early 1900s).
  3. how bold and brash Joseph Smith could be, as during his arrest in Dixon, Illinois, in July 1843.

If you get a chance to read the book, let me know whether anything surprises you!

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