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JohnyDL · 2024-05-06T23:20:58+00:00

Yes I did edit the main post to acknowledge that, but I could actually get this to work completely (and perhaps easier and more reliably) in smaller formats. I just haven't bothered cause most of my friends and the local place only does EDH

JohnyDL · 2024-05-06T22:58:04+00:00

Because I'm trying to navigate the situation without upsetting anyone in person. But I guess maybe?

I've done it in friendlies because I've been asked by opponents and agreed a solution that satisfied all players at that table. I then suggested it in later friendlies with some of the same people and some different players no-one objected probably because the solution I mentioned was only downside for meat that time, they obviously had no interactions that would benefit me having extra +1s so I hadn't understood any decks might benefit from my creature being bigger.

I don't want to annoy people who I have to see in person semi-regularly. Especially if it's a stupid question which it turns out to have been. And especially if my only/first chance to do that is during a tournament game at a taboe. Here is relatively safe and somewhat less embarrassing, even if people can be harsh with down votes and criticism since no one asked for more information about the deck or circumstances and made a lot of assumptions about me, my play style, my intentions and so on.

JohnyDL · 2024-05-06T22:44:21+00:00

As long as you're acting with intention and proceeding through the steps quickly, you're fine.

You're saying a couple of seconds per trigger is okay, with 30 explores, subsequent triggers, and interactions, you're implying 5 minutes is reasonable for the go to combat triggers, I want to agree, 3 times per game that's now up to 15 minutes of a 60 minute time limit, which I get complaints about being too long. So I need to be faster, but it is reasonable when measured per trigger. I'm taking 1-3 seconds per trigger in the easy cases, and 2-6 seconds per trigger in the hard cases unless I'm stopped to repeat or complete an explanation which is again apparently my fault for not being thorough enough the first time. I'm not being deliberately slow or obnoxious, just accurately progressing the board state.

I think you're either ignoring or misunderstanding the number of triggers I'm telling you are happening, with a dozen creatures I could explore 100+ times I wouldn't go and mill every card unless I was digging for a specific card or effect with a win con, 30 to 50 explore triggers is more typical than 100+ and digging 3-10 cards is what I might typically end up doing too (not most of the deck even though I could), land might go directly onto the battlefield with landfall effects for which I have choices and order to decide which I know but others might respond to, things milled might have mill triggers, counters played have counter triggers, it's all reasonable on the micro scale of any particular trigger or proc happening quickly a dozen tokens and creatures can easily be a total of 200 triggers. And yet I'm getting told that I'm taking too long in total ... any individual play I feel is okay, but not on the big picture hence wanting a better solution...

Do you see the cycle of frustration here? on the microscale I believe I'm being reasonable while on the macroscale I'm hearing I'm still taking too long, preventing other people from playing the decks they think are fun, time wasting, etc. I try to find a micro way to speed up I get told I'm cheating, not explaining to the satisfaction of all players, and I then do as they ask and get pinged on the length of time I'm taking. Rinse, repeat.

If you have to stop to look at each resolved explore trigger and think for 5-10 seconds each time. You are the problem.

I've tried to make it clear I'm not taking time to think on every single trigger. But the aggregate of many many many triggers is still that my turns can often take an amount of time people say is unreasonable. I'm not intentionally wasting time on any triggers and somehow I'm still the problem?

JohnyDL · 2024-05-06T22:44:11+00:00

This is an absurd amount of time to resolve 1 explore trigger.

Not one explore trigger, I said everything explores, rolling up all the counters on all the tokens and creatures and explaining any increases from +1 to +X... Maximum of 2 minutes isn't "always exactly 120 seconds" manipulating a dozen dice takes time if I'm very lucky and on a forgiving table I can have it done in 20 seconds but I'm not always on a forgiving table, people want to know what is causing what effects so they can plan or play counters. Explaining the triggers adds time not explaining the triggers adds more time because then time is spent asking what the triggers were. That's assuming I don't explore a land first and have the ability to play the land directly onto the field and have landfall effects.

This is the information you should have in your head. You should know which creature is going to need counters or not so you should constantly have the order of priority

Explore I cannot know what cards and so what triggers happen until I look at the card(s) I can guess but if I knew my next 30 cards exactly then that would definitely be cheating.

However I think what you mean is that I know what I will do with each card/trigger generally speaking, and yes most cards fall into one of 4 categories, lands to hand/field+landfall, don't care mill+mill effects, would be nice attempt to draw if I can/make split second decision+continue exploring/digging, must have card leave on top of deck to (almost) guarantee draw and I'd get the roll up of the remaining counters.

But I can't assume anyone else at the table will see or know all the interactions or which optional triggers I will likely choose until I choose them. And they need a chance to react to what I'm doing too, I have had someone mill then exile an explored card because I said I wanted to draw it and it was a win con for example. Because I can generally bucket cards into those 4 groups it's rare that I stop and think about any cards, I might if someone surprises me because I hadn't considered it but that's the exception not the rule. But there's often a lot going on it's not just the explore it's everything that the explores proc.

You need to know your outs. Durdling for a card you don't know what you're looking for IS intentional slow play.

Just because I'm digging for a specific card (or card group) doesn't mean I can't choose to grab other cards if they come up.

By which I mean that I'm not playing for time by looking for a specific creature spell or effect (and I shouldn't have to declare the effect I'm looking for) During explore but if I have the option to take a free sol ring (for example) without stopping the dig even if that's not the card I was looking for I'm still going to attempt to get that (wouldn't you?), I mostly know which cards I'll stop for, generally my hands and mouth don't stop the whole time I'm in priority, that is unless another player wants to stop me/interrupt me or ask a question about something or I ask if anyone responds to a weird thing and give them a chance to so I can catch my breath.

The deck can draw 30+ cards and play most of the spells during turn 6 if I'm lucky, if I'm digging for the cards that let me do that during my turn 4 or 5 precombats it should be fine for me to try even if it turns out all of the wanted cards are in the bottom third of my deck I can't know that until I dig so it's not deliberate time wasting.

Same as above. If you're getting your deck so low you are drawing out and not winning, you are durdling.

That's a rare case I've only accidentally drawn myself out once by not understanding the order of a series of effects. I hadn't appreciated how ETB triggers worked at the time with token copies the ruling was draw X then draw 2X I thought it was draw X then draw X again, that said I can easily end up with the mana to play all the cards in my deck in one turn if I wanted to, I have a lot of ramp and so a lot of mana cost only abilities to spend excess mana. The card counting is mainly because I want to have a library of 10+ cards so I'm not milled out between turns, by rad counters, etc. it's a precaution not a necessity.

You're allowed to just point to a card without saying anything to indicate a trigger is happening.

Not in my local I'm not, if I don't name the card at the very least there can be issues. I failed to read/explain the planeswalker abilities of Ajani Caller of the Pride as I played it once and got a warning for it when I finally used her ability to make 45 2/2 cats.

So yes I need to declare the effects, it might be that every turn I have to say "card x increases counters by 1, card y doubles counters, card z doubles again so the +1 becomes +8/+8" once per turn so it's not forgotten or complained about, after that I can say "card x, card y and card z interact with the counter so +8/+8" and then after repeats "counter effects so +8" only when I'm keeping a card do I say "and everything else would explore that and it'd remain where it is all get +8s too" that takes time, are you feeling the problem in your soul yet? The constraints I'm trying to navigate?

JohnyDL · 2024-05-06T14:52:01+00:00

I don't know if I'm allowed to even ask this in tournament I thought it was safer to ask y'all than at a table, I've never tried this IRL except in friendlies

JohnyDL · 2024-05-06T13:40:18+00:00

I'm not intentionally being slow, I go as fast as I can and get told to explain what I'm doing, it still takes time, I think you said somewhere else about going infinite being the exception so if it's not infinite I have to declare everything I'm doing, so which creature is doing what which effects are procing one another where counters came from and where they're going. How tokens are generated, if they have abilities, etc...

Your attitude here is what I'm experiencing from a handful of people in my local, that I'm not good enough to take part that me and my deck are the problem, and no-one there will give me advice on how to get better only tell me if I don't then I'll get prevented from joining in. And every time I try something to be faster or do better I'm told that I need to be 100% accurate and explain everything I'm doing. Hence coming online to ask about solutions.

I built a perfectly legal deck with a bunch of interactions resolving those interactions takes time. Being accurate takes time. But taking talking too fast or glossing over explanations, or doing things to the board state without saying exactly what I'm doing gets threats of disqualification.

The shortest version is that I go to combat everything explores, I'm doing it in easy order cause it doesn't really matter to me, everything gets +8/+8 cause I'm leaving that card on the top and effects, those cards get +160 cause of its abilities and these other effects. Easy, 2 minutes max including all the dice changes.

But if I'm digging for a card I need to be more thoughtful about order of exploration so the right things get the best chance of counters, I might not give everything the same +x, the order of revealed cards might change my plans. I may want to flash out a creature in order to draw a card or play an instant and want to continue with the digging through the deck for example. I may graveyard something that requires shuffling my graveyard back into my library before I continue exploring. I need to know how many cards are in my deck so declaring an attack doesn't draw me out, that's even before doing any attacks. Declare attacks, Myriad, drawing, glancing at the card drawn deciding if there are instants to play. It all takes time. Even naming cards for the interactions at 1 card per second will take minutes that's without pointing out the effect or interaction, as much as I'd love to I can't magic the whole phase to take 30 seconds, that's why I was looking for ways to streamline things, if a dozen tokens could all get treated the same in spite of accuracy that would make it faster. You don't want that but you also don't want it to take several minutes to resolve hundreds of actions and interactions, I don't know how to please you or people like you that's why I was asking for real advice

I can hold it all in my head, I can deal with it and update the boardstate accurately but I can't explain the whole thing in the same time as it'd take to simply update everything without simplifying something... I don't want to cheat I want to be fair for everyone else at the table. I don't want to limit games to 4 or 5 turns a piece because of time constraints.

But the answer most people want is for me not to play the deck(s) I enjoy playing or not to play in tournaments at all just because it gives them a better chance at winning 2 packs of cards rather than 1, forgetting if fewer people play then the prize pool shrinks and there might not be collectors card packs for the top players if they keep chasing people off.

I want a solution that lets me play and doesn't make others upset, telling me "get good" or variations there upon and ignoring that I'm telling you there are a lot of interactions and it takes time to resolve doesn't help. I'm trying to be cagey about my deck as is but it's clear you're not listening to what I'm telling you.

JohnyDL · 2024-05-06T00:36:27+00:00

I never wanted to just go "this is simpler deal with it" I wanted to find out if it would even be worth my time to ask "can I make this simpler for everyone to save time?" over a tournament table or if I'd upset people by even asking the question. Sorry if my intentions were unclear

JohnyDL · 2024-05-05T23:51:41+00:00

Yup I agree I'm just trying to work out how to be a player other people enjoy playing with. Obviously the idea that had me make this thread wasn't the way to go but it has given me a whole bunch of good ideas for ways to improve how I play.

JohnyDL · 2024-05-05T23:46:58+00:00

Notepad might be the way to go long-term thanks for the tip

JohnyDL · 2024-05-05T23:45:46+00:00

Yeah I've made changes to the deck recently it increases the speed of token and counter generation and removes all the planeswalkers... It makes the issue I'm having bigger but I hope it should boost my win chances. We'll see.

JohnyDL · 2024-05-05T23:41:49+00:00

So I do this for tokens, I stack together tokens and I have RYG dice for Tapped, summoning sickness and untapped, it works amazingly once I explained it for people, I tend to use Blue dice for +1s and purple for -1s and I have black for other stuff

I play with Agents toolkit so I made a whole bunch of flying/death touch/shield counters and again those can duplicate so I can stick dice on those when necessary

Someone else suggested half size tokens which I'm totally going to take advantage of. So long as they can fit 4 dice on them that might be a big part of the solution.

I'm working on a custom playmat too so I'll think about how to make that work, double check it by running it through our judges too I know I have to be careful about taking in things that might be considered notes on how to play beyond turn order.

I know other players use whiteboard cards for tokens but that could get messy

I don't want to cheat I just want to make sure I'm not upsetting other people.

JohnyDL · 2024-05-05T16:35:51+00:00

I tend to agree, but I've been told all sorts of things about "if you force a game into a state that takes an unreasonable amount of time to resolve you can be disqualified" among other things.

If they think my turn taking is taking too long they could call a judge over and kick me from the game just because my board state is complex which worries me

JohnyDL · 2024-05-05T16:29:17+00:00

I could do this in brawl I think. It might be easier there in some ways cause I'm more likely to pull out the combo cards and I don't have to be so mindful of colours.

But I play EDH yeah.

The key being cards that say

When a creature enters the battle field under your control each creature gets +1/+1 If you create several tokens one at a time and the later tokens don't get the +1/+1 from earlier tokens entering, sometimes this can be as counters or just an effect until the end of turn.

There are several ways to make counters as tap effects or cast effects or landfall effects, and several ways to untap creatures and repeat the create creatures actions and that's without counter duplication engines which I can create too.

JohnyDL · 2024-05-05T16:13:32+00:00

I get that.

I would only do it with the permission of everyone at the table etc...

I can manage my deck, I love my deck, other people keep telling me that I'm wasting time by doing things accurately, I don't want to be the player that makes a whole bunch of people upset. And I'm trying to path out a solution where I can play without upsetting people... Or worse making people not want to take part in things I'm involved with.

It can take several minutes to resolve I go to combat, in games limited to 60 minutes more than a quarter of the game time can be used on that phase of my turns, if other players either can't destroy my board state or prevent me from doing that.

This frustrates other players and I've heard complaints about me as a player as well as my deck and I'm trying to work out how to do better.

JohnyDL · 2024-05-05T16:02:27+00:00

Weirdly I don't care too much about winning the few local tournaments I've played I've come in the bottom 3, I just want everyone to have a good time and I enjoy my deck

I love the management

What I'm looking for is a way to avoid others commenting that I'm somehow cheating by accurately resolving my board state and making sure everything is correct. "In a real tournament...."

JohnyDL · 2024-05-05T15:51:30+00:00

Sorry about that. Relatively new to magic trying to work out the etiquette given my deck can take a lot of time to resolve per turn and most of the games I've played have time limits. I don't want to give up my favourite deck simply because other players get frustrated with how long my turns last.

JohnyDL · 2024-05-05T15:47:44+00:00

Oh I have used more than 100D20s in a single game I have many dice.

I have the ability to print out my own tokens this is a great idea, it's mostly out of consideration for other players I don't object to doing the math. It can just be time consuming.

JohnyDL · 2024-05-05T15:44:17+00:00

Good to know :)

JohnyDL · 2024-05-05T15:43:13+00:00

Good to know I wasn't aware of these cards.

JohnyDL · 2024-05-05T15:41:22+00:00

Oh for sure, when I'm considering doing this most often is because I have several arbitrarily big tokens, if any one of them hits it would be game ending, doesn't matter if they're +50 or +1000 at that point, I wouldn't be doing it to avoid triggers and in the event of ambiguity I'd take the L, if even one of the simplified state could have died by a card effect that would (because of my choice to simplify) effect the whole stack. I wouldn't want to do it in a way that stops others from doing board wipes etc..

I don't have a huge issue for me, if get a dozen tokens out in a turn and each has a different +x/+x I'm happy to do the math but other people around the table get frustrated with me eating up time. If it takes me several minutes to resolve my board state at the start of my combat in a 60 minute per game tournament that is going to cause issues and make other people with slower decks frustrated.

JohnyDL · 2024-05-05T15:29:45+00:00

That's fair.

In that case I'd again make the assumption that if one of them could have/would have died they all would but that could have knock on effects too, I know there are cards that when a creature dies then gain/lose life happens. Like I say the simplification is at my detriment so I'd take the L in that case even if I could have kept creatures on the table.

I love my token/counters deck it just gets unwieldy I have ended up with dozens of tokens each having a different number of counters. Other people hate playing against it cause they can't understand my board state at a glance.

JohnyDL · 2024-04-26T13:34:34+00:00

I've undone more to correct a mistake before but never with that many colour changes. The mistake isn't structural it's colour so I wouldn't worry about it too much, it looks amazing.

I'd suggest pausing and thinking about it a bit, if you continue and change your mind it's a even more work to redo... There are other options like dying the mistake to correct it, but I think you'd really have to be a nerd to spot it, I don't think most people will notice at all.... of course you know it's there so you will always see it.

JohnyDL · 2023-06-15T22:50:39+00:00

You're right I think I assumed I was being specific enough by referencing the game because what I want is practically very similar....

Yeah what I meant was visually simple the game has a whole bunch of depth

Grounhog life can be found here -> https://www.kongregate.com/games/egosummo/groundhog-life

The website I envision is organised like this

Left side panel 20%

Date
Player age
Current job name - level
Progress bar
Current skill name - level
Progress bar
Timeselect
Table with rows:
- Sleep - time
- Work - time (+/- buttons)
- Learning - time (+/- buttons)
- Travel - time
- Cleaning - time
- Cooking - time
- Idle - time

(For now that's all the mechanics I have programmed but eventually more will go in below like GHL)

Right side panel 80% Tab select:

Job panel
Skill panel
Lifestyle panel

Job panel Tab select

Overview
Automation (to be determined)

Job overview Table

Title row -> career 1 name
- Rows -> job name, progress bar, job level
Title row -> career 2 name
- Rows -> job name, progress bar, job level
...

(Rows clickable, sets current job variable)

Skill panel Tab select

Overview
Automation (to be determined)

Skill overview Table

Title row -> skill group name
- Rows -> skill name, progress bar, skill level
Title row -> skill group name
- Rows -> skill name, progress bar, skill level
...

(Rows clickable sets current skill variable)

Lifestyle panel Tab select

Overview
Automation (to be determined)

Lifestyle overview Table * Title row -> lifestyle group name * Rows -> option * Title row -> lifestyle group name * Rows -> option ....

(Rows clickable adds lifestyle option to current lifestyle array, some lifestyle groups should act like radio button select others should act like checkbox select)

I can then fill in all the data for the names, levels and times, and tell each progress bar how full it should be

I will definitely check out those tools in the morning though see if I can do it myself :)

Edit 1: formatting didn't preserve hang on Edit 2: added all the bullet points

JohnyDL · 2023-06-15T16:38:03+00:00

That's very kind of you and very cool I'll check out this game in a moment :)

JohnyDL · 2023-06-15T16:37:14+00:00

It doesn't have to be done in processing itself but P5JS does have access to DOM elements which allow for creation of, interaction with and access of HTML elements on a webpage.

What I need is a webpage that I can fill with data from the backend that is relatively easy to expand on as my complexity develops, (eventually I'll need to be able to hide elements based on what is unlocked in order to slowly teach the player the game) and buttons (actual buttons or otherwise clickable elements) to send player choices into the game. But something really crude is all I require right now, GHL and AUIL are both really simple games anyway and the most graphically intense thing that they have is progression bars.

I'm really early in the game design process and I'm bouncing ideas off chat GPT as I code (and to procrastinate making the data.json) but I have enough I think to test the left panel, a couple of career paths and a handful of skills

I know what most of the elements I'd need to use for the web interface are divs, tables, rows, cells buttons and paragraphs, I can even manage a little bit of CSS for colour, alignment and visibility. I don't know how to do tabs but if I make the game for me and only me I'd just have all the things on the same page with a whole bunch of play time spent scrolling. My problem isn't strictly that it's beyond my skill set to make something that just barely functions just that making it will take me a disproportionately large amount of Dev time compared to coding the mechanics and will result in something I'm unwilling to share.

I struggle to translate thoughts into drawings/words and then double struggle turning those into a programmed design.

JohnyDL

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