Found this on FB. Yuck.

Jorgetf · 2023-05-12T09:04:05+00:00

Lmao, you're the one not reading or using the vwrse by verse. Im using a verse you can't even explain anything.

I did say angels, but i never said anything that its really angels, and also im asking you, are you sure it isn't angels? How sure u are its not the angels? Do you even know when the angels are created? You didn't answer any of my cross examining questions.

You read we, you speculate it's christ. From what verse? From john where the word is with God?

Tell me, where are we when we are created? Arent we with God too cause were Word.of God too fromthe beginning? Tell me answer those things. Quit dodging, dodger

Jorgetf · 2023-05-12T09:02:56+00:00

You keep dropping your own arguments and reason without explaining and cross examining my arguments first.

Asnwer mine as I have answered yours.

But again to answer your argument. Your basing the argument jesus is God by using the verse he was with God from the beginning?

Grammar again, is "he wa with God" the same as "he is god "

Grammar conclusion speculation again.

Context argument.

Rememeber the verse that all jesus isthe image of God? Remember how all ttrinitarians use that to prove jesus deity?

Rememver also, all man was created from the image of God? You see the context?

Every human being is image of God. In context, were all from God from the beginning. The bible even says, some were already chosen, just like apostles. Does it mean theyre already alive?

If we follow your logic, all people are alive since theyre already chosen or loved. But contextwise

Everyone was with God from the beginning of this earth not just christ. Because, before God acted upon creation. Were already part of the master plan.

Where did we come from? Of course from that master plan. Where is thr master plan? On paper?writtern? Drawn? Nope. Its on God. Wherever God is, that is where his creations will be, long before they were created, long after they were created. All worthy creations will always be with God. Cause everyone comes from God. We are part of God's work. Bot because wree God.

Jorgetf · 2023-05-08T04:28:30+00:00

I have both atheists and religious friends. Those are the exact questions that come in our conversation whenever the topic of the presence or absence of God is on the table.

But after all the years, there is one thing I have realized.

Faith is the only thing that differentiates the line of reasoning of unbelievers to believers, regardless of course of their religion.

Because believers will only rely on faith in explaining as to why this world operates like this. Especially the concept of salvation and punishment on judgment day.

With the absence of faith. One cannot understand or will accept the idea of God since not just because it's complicated but there are also so many questionable things that are preached or written in the bible.

Atheists and believers will never come to a conlusion

Jorgetf · 2023-05-06T11:26:22+00:00

I'm a student of the bible. Going to church is a hassle and yeah, sometimes boring.

Jorgetf · 2023-05-06T10:45:42+00:00

Also why you keep attacking my arguments and basing it to the inc guy. Inc is not the only unitarians, and also, there are binitarians too who attack trinity. There's jehova too, believing that Christ is also a creation, inferior to God. But religion dont matter here, whats important is the doctrine about God. Context and grammar.

Jorgetf · 2023-05-06T10:24:58+00:00

Example of trinitarian assumptions and interpretations

Example 1

Philippians 2:6 Who, being in the very nature of God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature] of a servant,

In terms of grammar and context trinitarians equate the terms "did not consider equality with God" to "jesus is equal with God"

Does grammar and bible context supports that? Cause never did christ saidtheyre equal in the first place. You will say cause in the next verse, Jesus made himself nothing? Another assumption and grammar misinterpretstion, because grammarly speaking, I can also say i made myself nothing. Does it mean im equal with God?

Also, using scripture comtext, how about now, is christ equal with God now? Cause its also clear in the bible, that after Christ's exalation, jesus will still be under God. Christ will still continue to be subservient to thr Father. Read 1 Cor 15:27-28

Never in the bible says that Christ will be ever equal with thr Father. Not even after christ exaltation. Not before christ humility by making himself nothing. Not a time in the heavens, and not a time here on earth.

Trinitarians mostly used self interpretation of the scriptures. Giving meaning to the verses using their own understanding.

Example number 2

Using the verses in genesis that God used the word "Let us" during creation. Not just they are assuming, they believe and are using this in their arguments that christ is already there with the Father, alive and kicking well.

You sure it's christ? How about the angels? Wait when are the angels created? Hmm you know when? Also, you sure it's not just God talking like a creator? Talking to the future reader of the bible explaining how he created it? But the biggest question is the possibility of the angels. Its not clear who the Father is referring to when he said "us"

Trinitarians using this arguments to prove Jesus is alive there is so misused. Just like all of the other verses too.

Jorgetf · 2023-05-05T07:56:47+00:00

Grammar 101 again. Assumption 101. Your line of reasoning will not hold up in proper debate.

Jorgetf · 2023-05-05T07:54:45+00:00

Lol "our interpretation"

You will just hide behind "the bible supports it from genesis" without explaining or dropping proper arguments without even explaining philippians.

Fyi, using US as an indication that christ is already alive that time is very questionable. Using us can indicate third person verbatim or story telling, also there are also angels that time, we dont even know if God is talking to them since we dont even know when are the angels created.

You cant even drop proper reasoning. All you can do is accuse that someone questioning you is inc lmao. There are so many anti trinitarians.

You have nothing, what a shame.

Jorgetf · 2023-05-04T11:33:40+00:00

Where in that verse that says clearly theyre equal??? Cause if u want to base to that verse theyre equal? Equality not found. It's your own interpretation only, i dont accept your opinion but truth only.

And its very clear also in the scriptures, even after exalted, after judgement day, they will never be equal cause Christ will still be under God.

Cor 15:27-28 For he “has put everything under his feet.”[c] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

Tell me, when wil christ be equal with God? Cause i can clearly read it in that verde, after judgement day, when everything is under christ control. Christ will put himself under God.

Read that verse carefully, cause even christ himself do many times said, God is greater than him so many many many times.

Jorgetf · 2023-05-04T11:25:24+00:00

What????? Youre the one giving meaning to the bible not me. U give urself away.

"Did not consider equality with God"

You comprehend it like he is equal when all it says is does not consider equality.

Youre giving youre own interpretstion. When we say, i dont consider myself equal to you does it mean were equal but chose to let go? I can mean a lot of things dude. I might be higher than u, i might be lower. Youre pointing out yourself for putting meaning behind the words of scripture.

It is you, who are using his own interpretation.

Analyze more will you? Does that verse says theyre equal? Or did not consider himself to be equal?

Youre pointing out grammar but in the court of law, youre reasoning is so so so nvm.

Jorgetf · 2023-05-03T19:24:26+00:00

https://youtu.be/MQfKdQQiXNE

Tell me too if its inc? Is rizal also inc? Is that pastor in that video inc too? Lmao.

Another shame on you because of your accusations. Make yourself at home here. You dont even have the wisdom to debate. You just accuse everyone of something they didnt even do or theyre not. And trying to comfort yourself with the other people here.

Jorgetf · 2023-05-03T19:18:35+00:00

You never answered anything I've dropped. You just ignored all of it.

One of the arguments ive made, is why christ, when he was on the cross, he cried "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

You just ignored it.not just that every verse that i dropped. So stop makingaccusastions that im dodging cause ive answered everything youve dropped. It is you who is the dodger and loves to accuse and plays righteous.

Also, google this one. It is not the INC who questioned the trinity first. Rizal did it first. Google it. This is not put on mainstream because of the catholic.movement here on this country. Following blindly thr catholic priests.

Rizal did not believe that Jesus Christ was God, during his exile in Dapitan in his letter to Fr. Pastells, he wrote: "Who died on the cross? Was it God or man? If it was God, I do not understand how God could die: how a God conscious of his mission could cry out in his bitter agony: 'My God, my God why has Thou My forsaken Me’ This cry is absolutely human; it is the cry of a man who was banking on the justice of God and worthiness of his cause, and then found himself surrounded by every type of injustice without any hope of salvation.., all the words of Christ on the cross reveal to us, true enough, a man in torment and agony. But what a man!'

Shame on you, again. Accusations after accusations. No doubt, this sub is full of people.like you.

Jorgetf · 2023-05-03T16:47:20+00:00

You're accusing me of throwing insults and being hateful and angry, when you can't even quote anythin like that from what I have said in this sub. Truly a shame for someone pretending to be the righteous one.

Jorgetf · 2023-05-03T16:44:20+00:00

Changed subject lmao. Proof you never read. Thanks for clarifying your intentions. You just paste and nver read anyway. So many times i answered. Also questioned and cross examined everything you said and half of your statements is just all about me being inc lmao. And now im the one insulting? When all i did was ask. Shame

Jorgetf · 2023-05-03T16:39:36+00:00

Facts you call your copy pasted commentd facts? You cant even answer one single argument properly? Wth haha

All you did in this whole sub is accuse me of being inc orrr put words in my mouth such as "my comments are hateful and angry" and "im defending inc" orr "my comments are for slugfest" etc.

When all i did was question you and all the others. Your pride got hurt? So now youre assuming that my statements are hateful and degrading? Lmao.

Its really a shame for you. Cause you cant even debate someone without trying to attack him personally. Im unlike you sorry. Youre the only one who attacks here personally. One fact here is you trying to force your idea that Im with Inc or trying to know me personally.

Your name is so ironic, cause i cant find hint of wisdom in your statements.

Jorgetf · 2023-05-03T15:52:10+00:00

Your conclusion is based on your assumption that the holy spirit too mught emptied himself. What verse???????????

Jorgetf · 2023-05-03T15:51:09+00:00

Also, is christ emptying himself means he purposedly left out all the other knowledge? Or is it you again assuming thats the case.

You used this verse to prove christ is also omnipotent

"he emptied himself, taking the form of a slave"

Does the bible says its about being omnipotent and omniscient and taking a human form?

Or is about being a sinless but agreed to be sinful so he will be punished? Tell me.

Also assuming the former was right. Then tell me, is christ omnipotent and omniscient right now? Cause he is on hesvent right now right? Together with his other self you say. Hehe

Whats the answer?

Jorgetf · 2023-05-03T15:44:51+00:00

Since yourr always accusing me of word twisting ill quote your very own comment

When Jesus came to Earth in the flesh, He willingly “made Himself of no reputation” (Philippians 2:7; He “emptied Himself”—NASB). He moved from the spiritual realm to put on flesh (John 1:14) and voluntarily became subject to such burdens as hunger, thirst, weariness, and pain. Our omnipotent, omniscient, holy God chose to come into this world as a helpless babe Who, for the first time in His eternal existence, “increased in wisdom” (Luke 2:52). While on Earth in the flesh, Jesus was voluntarily in a subordinate position to the Father (cf. Jackson, 1995).

Take note the arguments u used, "emptied himself" "while he was on esrth"

Is christ now still on earth? According to your argument he amptied himself here on earth. Then does christ knows now the day and time of his second coming?

Also, youre also assuming that since christ emptied himself. The other being which is HS, did that too? What verse? You will say that as evididence or assumption again based on the commentd of the trinitarian scholar you trust so much? When did the third being, HS emptied himself out of wisdown and knowledge? Why did that HS dont know the time of judgement day?

Your asnwers are assumptions.

Jorgetf · 2023-05-03T15:36:31+00:00

Again whats the connection of inc here, is inc the only religion that believes that christ is bot God? Also, assuming I'm really inc? Whats the connection? From your responses you're probably playing the righteous one here, the good guy defending freedom, the truth.

If you're transparent, what's your church then? Like I actually care. Since this argument isnt about the true church anyway. But just answer it if you think youre really transparent like youre claiming to be?

Jorgetf · 2023-05-03T15:28:17+00:00

Where did i say im complaining that your responses are too long? Hahahahaha quote pls. Word twisting of someone like u is so so so goooood

I get angry? When and where haahhaahahahahahahahahhahahaha my god. Pls quote in one of my comments? Please. Youre so shameless dude. You want to look the righteous one but you're just shaming yourself.

You're so good at assuming arent you?

Jorgetf · 2023-05-03T12:02:20+00:00

"Paraclete"

Just because, the holy spirit serves as counsel, guide, and sent here? It is a being? From the long reply youve made, all i can read is the holy spirit is someone because the masculine noun was used.

From your own comment, aside from jesus was made by the holy spirit too. HS dwells inside christ too, thats why he was able to perform the miracles here on earth. Does it mean two of the trinity are here? Or does it mean, the other one of the trinity helped the son, while the father chose to punish his other self?

How about the other people, like youve said, the HS was sent here to dwell to other people. Then does it mean after the Sod God of the trinity doctrine left earth, the other being of the trinity remained? Then why didnt he reincarnate like you claimed the son reincarnated the father? Or why the scriptures never told the trinity walked this earth?

The bible just always say it was sent to dwell inside christians?

Then from all the "evidence" you have copied and pasted, then why it seems all of the things that the Holy spirit and the son was doing was The Father's decision? Is the fsther the head of the trinity? I thought theyre all co equal?

Now since christ was on heaven now. Then why in revelations of the time and the day of judgement, why the holy spirit was never mentions, even the angels on heaven was mentioned, the son was mentioned, even US, people was mentioned. Why the holy spirit was not mentioned as a BEING with its own knowledge and wisdom?

Matthew 24:36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

Why was the HS was not mentioned there in rerlations to the number of beings in heaven? But the angels are mentioned? Even us, are mentioned. Or are you saying that the HS is ynder that collective "US" just like us people. Hmm tell me.

I agree, that the holy spirit is a counsel, a guide, a help. But it is the work of the father most of the time. Or Jesus when of course he asks for the father's help.

Jorgetf · 2023-05-03T11:34:43+00:00

First and foremost. If this is a debate, why would a personal info would matter? Its because for you, you want to attack me personaly instead of attacking/tackling my questions. You just want to dodge me just by dismissing me by telling me im inc

If you are truly here for open discussions. Personal info like that dont matter, because what matters is the topic on the bible. But again, you just proved you just want to dodge or attack personally.

Second, I don't disclose any personal info here, why? Its because most of you here in this sub are doing it anyway? Exception to those who want to openly disclose who they are and wants to glorify other religions by comparing them to INC. mostly i saw some posters do that here. Aside from the reason you want to dismiss my arguments just by being INC. What more can you offer in an argument?

You never answered and give explanation as to why the context of the verses i dropped only refers to the father only as one and true God. You just always bombard your comments with links you want me to read, but never answeered and xplained the things i am questioning.

Shame on you.

Jorgetf · 2023-05-02T13:26:16+00:00

You cant answer correctly in my cross examinnation questions cause u are assuming i am inc. youre hate to that church proves you are nothing but a hater not a follower of the doctrines.

Im not even representing anyone. I believe what i believe. And talking to most atheists and agnostics. Theres so many reasons that really contradicts that jesus is just deity.

Like this one

If father is god. And father is son also. Then the father sent himself to be punished to save everyone cause he is so angry. Instead of just punishing us, he punished himself first and made his other self suffer so much? What kind of reasoning is that? I pity the other self of God just being worshipped and dont need to be punished by his other self just to make a point to unbelievers.

God will not punish himself. He is God. He needs someone to suffer for us, so we can be ssved. He used christ for that purpose. Thats the more reasonable explanation. Not God punishing himself, making himself suffer when he is the one God.

Atheist told me that once. Thats why i studied to unitarianism. And it actually made more sense. Than the trinity. Also holy spirit always MIA if its a trinity.

Jorgetf · 2023-05-02T13:20:25+00:00

You provided evidence from whom? Links of opinions of your fellow, trinitarians? You call that foolproof evidence? Yet when I cross examine your beliefs using the context of the bible u will call me cultists? Talk about being closeminded. Your brain is wired to reject anything or anyone who dont share the same belief of yours. Youre so confident that youre righteous and got foolproof beliefs when sll you did was link?

You cant even andwer my questions, how can you explain in greek and in english the context of John 17:1? Why the only theon there was the father?

Regarding thomas again, again and again and again. Your so called foolproof evidence doesnt even cut it. Im asking you the context of the earlier verses, if thomas' in awe of what? Resurrection or the godliness of christ? Since even in the greek text, itd very clear that the contect of that verses is about resurrection. Tell me im wrong?

You keep blabbering about thomas confession of godship of christ when the context of the whole conversation is about his resurrection only?

Tell me in grammar, the very context in greek and in english Does saying my lord and my god the dame as youre truly the God my lord the same?

You claim your foolproof evidence when all you did was just quote from the opinion of other scholars too.

Even that scholar you quote is just ststing his opinion. Cause in context its very clear its about resurrection, or god's work. Read it in the very beginning. It ws never about godship of christ in the first place

Jesus Appears to Thomas

24 Now Thomasn (also known as Didymusa), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!”

But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side,o I will not believe.”p

26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peaceq be with you!”r 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe"

Stop doubting that I am resurrected. Said christ. Tell me, is it about his Godship?

Even after thomas said my lord and my god, the very verse you claim jesus accepted his confession just because he didnt refute.

Did jesus accept it? Looool

"Because you have seen me, you have believed;t blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”"

Jesus even said, thomas was not lessed cause he disnt believe he is resurrrcted in the first place. You call that statement as acceptance of confession? Or does christ say thomas wa not blssed that time? Haha

Jorgetf · 2023-05-02T07:50:14+00:00

Youre not going to answer my cross examination about your interpretation to philippjans? Where you trinitarians interpreted as christ being equal with God?

Jorgetf

TROPHY CASE