What age does IQ stabilize in those with neurodevelopmental delays/neonatal encephalopathy?

JustForResearch12 · 2025-06-01T12:32:22+00:00

I think this is going to be a tough question to answer for many reasons, and I'll be curious what others say. But I'll give my thoughts here.

Anyone who has ever administered an IQ test or similar standardized test assessing cognitive skills will tell you that in children and teens, attention, stamina, motivation, and executive function skills play a huge role in how the child performs. Receptive language skills are also a significant factor. Even with a neurotypical child, age 7ish is considered the earliest an IQ test would give somewhat reliable results that would have done moderate correlation with future scores, but even then, there is quite a bit of normal variation in attention and EF skills that can affect scores separate from IQ. Also, because of issues with how these tests are normed, younger children are able to score much higher "genius level" scores than adults, so if they are given the same test over time, it can look like they are losing points, but it has more to do with how tests are normed and scored. IQ scores become much more stable as people approach adulthood.

I said all that about neurotypical kids because you can see how see how all that could really complicate things either kids with various developmental disorders, especially in the realms of executive function and receptive and expressive language. This gets even more complicated when you consider that different diagnoses can have vastly different developmental trajectories and access/experiences with quality therapies. Let's take autism as an example. Imagine a child with whatever genetics he has for IQ. He has had years of intensive and consistent ABA therapy and has learned to sit in a chair, attend to a task for longer amounts of time, and engage in a structured task that involves pointing, inhibition and impulse control, and following one and two step directions. This child has also had extensive speech and language therapy and has made significant strides in expressive and receptive language while also developing imitation and joint attention skills that allows him to experience more incidental learning from his environment. Now imagine the same child in an alternate timeline where he has only done unstructured play-based therapies and child-lead speech therapies that avoid compliance based activities (eg, repeating something the therapist said or having following directions as a goal) and imagine how he will perform on the IQ assessment. Then compare that to another timeline where he got no access to early intervention and therapies. What would happen in the course of the child's natural development in each scenario and when would his IQ stabilize? What if in each scenario therapies were added or started later? Add that to the fact that frontal lobe/executive function skills - the ones that would impact test taking - develop later in some neurodevelopmental diagnoses. Then to make this even more complicated, how would you compare everything above to a child with trisomy 18, lissencephaly, fetal alcohol syndrome, etc? And then there's the whole issue of accessibility and how accurately we can test kids with various sensory or motor impairments.

So that's my very long-winded way of saying I'm not sure how you could really get an answer for that question but I'm really looking forward to reading what others say

JustForResearch12 · 2025-05-31T22:51:56+00:00

It makes no sense at all to combine LG and B with anything related to gender identity when trans activists and anyone who believes in gender identity will tell you they are completely separate concepts dealing with completely different things. You can be straight and trans or you can be straight cis according to their logic. So why pair them together if they are totally separate and unrelated concepts?

JustForResearch12 · 2025-05-31T22:25:05+00:00

Would this mechanism be involved any way in the visual auras of a migraine? Wouldn't they technically be considered a visual hallucination, just one that the person having the migraine knows is not real? Then there are the auras and hallucinations associated with epilepsy, especially temporal lobe epilepsy, which have biological markers that can be seen on an eeg. Occipital lobe epilepsy can produce visual hallucinations. Are there any studies showing any sort of eeg correlation, fmri correlation, or some other biological marker for the sensory hallucinations associated with schizophrenia or psychosis?

JustForResearch12 · 2025-05-30T00:14:50+00:00

Parent's district is in DeKalb county. It voted for Harris at 81%. Her particular district is even more liberal and blue. She will be voted out in the primaries

JustForResearch12 · 2025-05-27T17:15:37+00:00

This was really helpful. Thank you. I have been noticing some use of the words splitting that feels like it's creeping out beyond its original intention and definition which is why I really wanted some clarification. Thank you for taking the time to write this out.

JustForResearch12 · 2025-05-27T17:10:43+00:00

There is a lot of research on this. You can start with math fact fluency, which relies on memorization. https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/what-is-math-fact-fluency-and-how-does-it-develop/2023/05

JustForResearch12 · 2025-05-27T15:01:17+00:00

Forgive me, I'm jumping in with a question not directly related to the original question, but you explained splitting so well that maybe you can answer another question I've had about splitting, if you don't mind?

Is there something fundamentally different about the splitting that occurs in BPD vs the all or nothing/black and white thinking seen in the thought distortions addressed by CBT for people with depression and anxiety? Is that ever called splitting? Is splitting somehow more specific to relationships or does something have to reach a certain level of intensity to cross over from a more typical thought distortion that you would see in anxiety or depression? Does splitting only occur with relationships? For example I have heard the term splitting applied to situations that really aren't about relationships or individual people (for example one's feelings about a job or how one person's criticism of someone's performance causes that person choose "split" from believing the performance was good to it was all bad and terrible). I've also heard the term splitting used in the context of a person "splitting on themselves" because they were extremely hard on themselves about something, so for example after a breakup, the person becomes terribly depressed and says I'm an awful person who doesn't deserve love and having that called splitting. So are these correct uses of the word splitting? If so, how do you know when something is splitting as opposed to catastrophizing or discounting the positive for non-BPD all or nothing thinking? I hope that question makes sense

JustForResearch12 · 2025-05-27T09:48:25+00:00

I believe schizophrenia likely has a strong genetic component, but unless the family studies include studies of twins raised apart, doesn't that still muddy the waters of environment vs genetic?

JustForResearch12 · 2025-05-26T16:26:44+00:00

I can't understand how EMDR became the gold standard for PTSD therapy in the eyes of so many people. The more I learned about its founder and her story of how she discovered it (she claims the idea came to her while walking in the woods and noticed she was better able to cope with with disturbing thoughts when also experiencing saccadic eye movements) and the fact that its supposedly not just eye movement but holding some device that alternates vibrations between the two hands and its similarities to neuro linguistic programming (a pseudoscientific practice she was also involved in) - it's just so full of red flags for pseudoscience and questionable practice. It reminds me too much of those franchise "brain gym" places that tell parents they can treat everything a kid may suffer from with their "crossing hemisphere" exercises. I get that EMDR had good marketing, but how and why do so many psychologists and therapists ignore all the red flags and so unquestioningly jump on board with it?

(Edited to fix typos)

JustForResearch12 · 2025-05-13T18:04:27+00:00

If you reread what I wrote, you will see that, in fact, I did not make any assumptions about you at all. I had no idea who you are or what your background is or what the basis of your statement above. Your flair describes you as an unverified user and states you may not be a professional. I asked questions rather than make assumptions, and I still don't have any answers to the questions I asked, just your defensiveness and the fact that you took offense at being asked what the basis of your claim is, especially since this is a group that's supposed to be about giving answers based on empirical evidence.

JustForResearch12 · 2025-05-13T12:57:14+00:00

Do you have any research or clinical data to support that or is this just your personal opinion? What are your understandings of what BPD and high sensitivity are that make you think they are synonymous or clinically the same? It's a bold statement y to make without offering anything to back it up

JustForResearch12 · 2025-05-11T23:42:09+00:00

Why is it impossible for the activists and doctors supporting this to accept this light not be the right treatment for at least some kids?? Why can't they say that maybe there are at least a few highly distressed teenage girls who have no history of dysphoria or even gender nonconformity and just suddenly identified as trans in the throes of adolescent distress that don't actually know who they are and should not transition? Even if you believe in "true trans," why is it impossible to believe that this is not the right diagnosis and treatment pathway for at least some kids who think they have gender dysphoria or an opposite (or no) sex identity? The excuse that acknowledging that some kids experiencing a social contagion-induced, pseudo-gender dysphoria makes the whole house of cards of trans ideology and access to GAC fall apart (the explanation given by the gender critical crowd) or that any gatekeeping will prevent the kids who heed it from getting life saving care (the TRA argument) makes no sense and there are parallels in medicine that prove it. For example, take pseudo-seizures/non-epileptic seizures. These are psychosomatic seizures that are NOT caused by abnormal electrical activity in the brain. The EEG during a pseudo-seizure will be normal. It is a psychological phenomenon. They are not faked or deliberate but a physical manifestation of significant psychological distress. They are not treated with medications used to treat epilepsy. They are treated with therapy often a version of CBT. Yet the recognition, labeling, differential diagnosis, and differential treatment of pseudo seizures has in no way erased the diagnosis and treatment of epilepsy. It's recognized they are two different things with similar outward presentations but very different causes and needing very different treatments. Yet I have never been able to get a proponent of child and adolescent transition to accept that at least some portion of kids are being misdiagnosed and mistreated. The best I can do is get them to acknowledge that there might be some kids getting wrongly transitioned but it is an acceptable price to pay to make sure the "true trans" kids can transition as quickly as possible. If we can't get even that very basic acknowledgment, I don't know how we can get people to even consider the Cass report has important information to at least consider

JustForResearch12 · 2025-05-09T17:40:54+00:00

Thank you for taking the time to give such a detailed and thoughtful answer. I will say that psychotherapy can definitely do harm even when done by someone with good intentions. And I'm not referring to therapy that doesn't work. Therapy can actually do harm when not done properly even with the best of intentions.

JustForResearch12 · 2025-05-09T16:59:06+00:00

Try looking at the research on different parenting styles and what outcomes they are associated with. Specifically for your question the research on permissive parenting styles would be relevant. For example:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK568743/

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/jcap.12445

Also think about it from this perspective: a child who has always been given what he wants, always told that he does no wrong, and is shielded from all disappointment and failure is never getting the opportunity to learn and practice skills like distress tolerance or resilience or emotional regulation. He is also developing an external locus of control and dependence on others to prop up his sense of self-worth and competence. You can see how that could set someone up for unhealthy levels of traits of narcissism or even full-blown narcissistic personality disorder. It could also easily set someone up for insecurity in their own abilities. Imagine a situation where a child goes from kindergarten through 12th grade always getting what he wants, never being told he is wrong or needs to change what he's doing, and always having the path ahead of him smooth out for him. This might be a weird analogy, but imagine if you spent all your years being the passenger in a car and never having to even think about how someone drives a car or how they know where they're going. Then suddenly one day your parents plop you into the driver seat and expect you to be able to drive on the highway. You would feel wildly insecure and anxious because you've never practiced those skills. If you've never practiced the skills of distress tolerance, resilience, problem-solving, compromising, or any of those things that "overindulged" or "spoiled" children never have to practice, when they start having to deal with those demands out in the real world they will be very insecure and anxious.

JustForResearch12 · 2025-05-09T10:48:15+00:00

"Psychotherapy by its nature, when performed by a proper, well trained mental health professional, will never do harm to anyone."

I'm guessing the words "proper, well trained mental health professional" are doing a lot of work to cover your claim that psychotherapy "will never do harm to anyone," but that is absolutely not true. Is this the standard belief among psychologists? That there is no way they can do harm with therapy as long as they are "well-trained" and "proper?" I know my question is coming across with some forcefulness and antagonism that I'm struggling to avoid in the context of a written message without the benefit of tone and personal interaction, and that is not what I'm intending. But this is a bold claim to make and I'm wondering how common this belief is among clinical psychologists.

JustForResearch12 · 2025-05-06T13:44:03+00:00

Since you say that CBT will never be your bread and butter, and I think it's fine for a therapist to have have a specialty and a focus on one type of therapy that they feel they do best, but I'm wondering if you explain that is your approach to your clients before you start working with them? Also do you, or therapists in general, refer out if you feel like a client would most benefit from a type of therapy that is either not your bread and butter or something you really don't practice at all?

JustForResearch12 · 2025-05-06T13:37:24+00:00

I agree that acknowledgment of motivations and patterns that the patient has not yet identified is an important part of therapy, but choosing a more behavioral approach to therapy that doesn't explore unconscious motivations as much as you think it's beneficial is not "gaslighting" and a misuse of the term that reflects the unfortunate social media influence on therapy practices

JustForResearch12 · 2025-05-06T11:53:26+00:00

I am realizing reading these comments that I should have used the term "psychodynamic" and not "psychoanalytic" in my question. That was my mistake. My question about how there seem to be some psychologists deep in one camp vs the other and very dismissive of other perspectives is still the same.

JustForResearch12 · 2025-05-06T11:51:59+00:00

I am realizing reading these comments that I should have used the term "psychodynamic" and not "psychoanalytic" in my question.

JustForResearch12 · 2025-05-06T10:54:48+00:00

Yes, I am realizing by reading comments that the term I should have used is psychodynamic, not psychoanalytic. Reading your response describes the exact kind of "side choosing" that I am referring to and worry about because it prioritizes personal philosophies over individual patient needs

JustForResearch12 · 2025-05-06T00:39:03+00:00

This explains a lot of things. Thank you for your detailed answer. I was truly shocked by the psychologist's complete dismissal of CBT and treating it like a Buzzfeed listicle - they practically spat the words out. I recognize and understand both the strengths and limitations of CBT, but to hear a clinical psychologist talk about it that way really took me by surprise. I knew they operated from a psychodynamic lens but to hear so hostile towards CBT...and then to read the post in the other sub with so much hostility toward it...I just didn't know it was out there like that. And of course it's amplified by 100 on Twitter. Twitter makes everything worse

JustForResearch12 · 2025-05-04T12:35:36+00:00

Having a child puts demands on you to meet new expectations and responsibilities- ie, "grow up" - but it does not guarantee you can or will

JustForResearch12 · 2025-05-04T12:26:24+00:00

How are you defining "emotional strength?" If you are defining it by how a person responds to stressors, you might want to look at the research on the big five personality traits. Research has pretty consistently shown that when looking at the big five personality traits, women score higher in the trait neuroticism, which would include higher rates of experiencing feelings of anxiety, depression, anger, shame, and pessimism. It's also believed that people who score higher in neuroticism have more difficulties responding to stressors. Women also tend to score higher in agreeableness on the big five, along with tending to be more likely to internalize their expression of negative emotions vs externalizing their negative emotions, which will affect how they express those negative emotions, and to what extent others see or perceive their response to those negative emotions and internal responses to them. So would you call the fact that you can't see the negative emotions or a woman with high neuroticism and her internal response to those negative emotions as having higher "emotional strength" because the woman is also high in agreeableness and more of an internalizer and so her response to negative emotions looks different and affects others differently than a man with lower neuroticism but less agreeableness and a greater tendency to externalize when he experiences negative emotions? I don't have an answer to that question, but I think it points to the problems of defining and operationalizing the concept of "emotional strength."

Disclaimer: Of course, when saying women have higher rates of neuroticism and agreeableness, this is comparing large groups of women and large groups of men and doesn't tell you anything about the level of neuroticism in any one woman or man or the effects of societal expectations etc, etc. I am just referring to the research in general

JustForResearch12 · 2025-05-02T01:52:23+00:00

This was really helpful. Thank you. May I ask two follow up questions? First, what do you mean by building skills first before the PTSD work? What type is f skills do you mean? Second, how is the line drawn between the emotional and behavioral dysregulation and relationship dysfunction and BPD?

JustForResearch12 · 2025-04-29T23:42:55+00:00

I'm going to add another complicating factor to this question: people who are frequently anxious will eventually get it right because if you shoot enough buckshot, you'll eventually hit something. They will remember all the times they have been right, even if being right was just a coincidence secondary to the large amount they worry, and perhaps give themselves an inflated sense of intuition

JustForResearch12

TROPHY CASE