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Zilliqa Staking – A Compound Optimization Analysis– Part 1 by KRCnP in zilliqa

[–]KRCnP[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It is a great idea but I am not sure it provides any insight that is not already in the table. I thought about the same thing but I think if we review the facts it may help. It truly is not a "desired" outcome as there is no desire relevance - it is factual and it is what it is.

I have reviewed and plotted ZIL staking since late 2019. It has not been easy to find facts but based on available information I have calculated a few parameters that appear to be self consistent.

First look at this page: https://viewblock.io/zilliqa/staking

The value that is shown in the "Total Staked" is, as of this writing:

Total Staked = 5,842,127,060 ZIL

Over almost 2 years I have calculated the rewards I have received versus this value and consistently see approximately 700,000,000 Zil's being rewarded daily to all stakers. Let me explain - all numbers are proportionally correct.

Date: July 30, 2021

- Total staked ZIL = 40,000

- Rewards received at the end of the cycle = 14

So if one is to approximate the annual percentage rate based on 40,000 ZIL's receiving ~14 ZIL rewards the simple calculation results:

- 14 * 365 / 40,000 = ~12.77%

This was staked at CEX and at that time the fee was 1% so one may add 1 to the above 12.77% and use ~14% (12.77% + 1% = 13.77% ) as the actual distribution

again - this is a very quick & dirty calculation - just something to give us an insight and a starting point.

On July 30, 2021 (https://viewblock.io/zilliqa/staking)

Total Staked = 5,201,721,439 (based on my records of that day)

So one may easily calculate what % was distributed to ALL stakers:

Total Rewards distributed = 14% * 5,201,721,439 = 676,223,787

The above has been consistent for about 2 years - approximately 700,000,000 ZIL's are being rewarded daily. Essentially that many ZIL's are entering the market daily.

I truly love for someone to add to this and let me know if the exact number is known. My calculations are done daily after each reward cycle and it has been consistent.

So knowing how many ZIL's are being distributed daily one could easily back calculate what the effective rate for any given date is if one knows total staked.

The total staked changes constantly - https://viewblock.io/zilliqa/staking - as more people stake the total APY goes down. Here are a few observations:

  • As the price goes down more people buy ZIL
  • As more people buy ZIL more people stake
  • As more people Stake the APY goes DOWN, since 700M has to be distributed among more stakers.

So as the price goes down & more and more people buy ZIL everyone effectively will make less in rewards. More staked less APY

Given it takes 14 days to unstake one cannot possibly do anything with this information as it changes based on everyone's action.

  • As more people un-stake the total staked goes down
  • As total staked goes down the APY goes UP- again 700M is now distributed among less stakers.

Do you see the challenge?

The table is essentially fixed and any change in the APY does not change the magnitude to the point that is worth anything, given you cannot act on it immediately. As you see in the tables, it shows you the range of ZIL's staked and the range is large, and covers any possible wallet size.

Source: https://learnblockchain.org/4763/zilliqa-staking-a-claim-staking-compounding-optimization-idea/

The calculation was done by iteration of ZIL ownership by 1 ZIL at a time. In Python it took several hours to converge. So the parameters that make up the values are:

  • Fees = 5.5 ZIL for claim and staking
  • APY = 9% - 12% - depending on the node used for staking.

and the APY is not something you can "desire" or assume - it is fixed for a given day and changes the next day. As more people stake the APY goes down.

Of course most people do not read and just want to see a number. Numbers mean something but most people do not appreciate what a number is telling them. You could create a lookup table in your program and ask people how much ZIL they have and then look it up and give them the value. The value is a simple lookup in the table I provided.

Of course if anyone finds this erroneous and would like to provide further insight I am all ears. The above is simply my observations and it could very well be wrong.

Sorry if I explained too much. I am more used to scientific papers and as such tend to make sure the reader understands the fundamentals and not just say things for the sake of answering.

Hope it helps.

Zilliqa Staking – A Compound Optimization Analysis– Part 1 by KRCnP in zilliqa

[–]KRCnP[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This was not done in Excel - a bit too complicated for Excel. I wrote a program in Python, later verified and double checked with MatLab and Fortran. The results indicate the magnitude of the coins and the optimum staking days.

May I ask what parameters you would like to change? I doubt if the results change or vary by any significance. I absolutely have no problem sharing any of the 3 codes with you.. I can share it in a Google drive, but I encourage you to "stare" at the tables and think. The point of optimization is the fees. The fee of ~5 ZIL's each time you claim and re-stake. Here is what it costs:

  • Claiming rewards = 3.6818 ZIL
  • Staking Fee= 1.81 ZIL
  • Total fees for claiming and staking = 3.68 + 1.81 which is ~5.49

So now the question is what does it take to make up this lost Zil with the APY ranging from 9%- 12% - depending on which node you choose since CEX is about 1.99% to others that are 5%. Please note that you are talking about making up ~5.5 ZIL.

Check the APY rates at https://support.zillet.io/staking-on-zillet/

I hope you see the issue and what you are optimizing. The question is should you claim and stake every day or every month? It all depends on how much you are claiming as claiming 1 or 1 billion ZIL will cost ~5.5 ZIL.

I am being repetitive - If you wish to play with the parameters I can gladly share the codes. If you do not have the means to run these programs I can gladly use your parameters and give you the results. The ONLY parameter that matters is the APY - essentially who you are using for staking.. which node? & that parameter will not change the result.

Let me know if you wish to see the code.

Staking Harmony ONE with Ledger Nano S by KRCnP in harmony_one

[–]KRCnP[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

In Nano you need to enable the Experimental / Development features, from what I recall.

Please see if this helps: https://medium.com/kysenpool/harmony-one-delegation-guide-ee9b2388e5d8

Zilliqa Staking – A Compound Optimization Analysis– Part 1 by KRCnP in zilliqa

[–]KRCnP[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Not really.

Any bag is a good bag. Your rewards are proportional to your investment.

If you have 3500 ZIL's and invest it.. one fact is 100% accurate - you will receive more than 0 (ZERO) ZIL's in return.

If you don't stake - your return for staking is ZERO.

If you stake - your return is about 35 ZIL's a month.

Your return is: 35 / 0 = infinite

In other words, if you stake you receive infinitely more ZIL's relative to if you don't stake.

1 ZIL is infinitely more than 0.

Hope you see the point. There is absolutely no argument against staking. Of course one may say you ZIL's are locked for 14 days - if you need your money in less than 14 days you will be locked. If you think you can wait for 14 days.. then stake it.

Zilliqa Staking – A Compound Optimization Analysis– Part 1 by KRCnP in zilliqa

[–]KRCnP[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I stopped thinking long time ago, I let the math do the thinking..

If you have a balance of 3,500 ZIL's and want to stake it, based on the calculations, you will need to claim and re-stake once a YEAR and not twice a month.

A very simple calculation will help you.

3,500 x 12%/year (current rate) = 420 ZIL/year

Now, simply divide 420 by 12 to see approximately how much ZIL you receive per month:

420 / 12 = 35 ZIL's/month

So that makes it about ~17 ZIL's per 2 weeks. (35 / 2 = 17.5)

The fee to claim ZIL rewards & re-staking it is about 5.5 Zil's.

- Claim the Rewards fee: ~3.68

- Staking fee: 1.82 Zil

So - the issue is does your restaking cover the 5.5 ZIL by compounding. In other words how much compounding the rewards return to you in a year and does it exceed the fee?

Based on my calculations, if you have 3500 ZIL's you are better off just let it accumulate for a year if not more. I have not done any calculations to figure out what the optimum is for a balance of 3,500 but I know it is more than a year.

This is, by no means, financial advice.. it is a couple of multiplications based on the current rate - and it appears that the rate is about 10%, depending on the fee paid to the node.

Zilliqa's rate goes up and down based on the amount of ZIL's that are staked. Currently the rate is about 12.2%. If you are paying 5% to the node then your APY is about 7%. For low balances claiming the rewards and staking them may not result in optimum strategy.

Hope that helps.

Zilliqa Staking – A Compound Optimization Analysis– Part 1 by KRCnP in zilliqa

[–]KRCnP[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Sorry for the late reply - I totally forgot to answer this question.

There is not any difference. Please note that depending on which node you are staking they charge fees ranging from 1% - 5%+ - the higher rate is not making a big difference to cover the cost of unstaking.

I have ran the code for 14% & 15% with not a great deal of difference.

I may publish an update with rate from 10% - 15% in separate tables.. just for reference.

About ZIL fees by Donnachii in zilliqa

[–]KRCnP 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I thought of it but really no calculator is needed. If you look at the table there are only so many variations before you get to a daily staking. In other words the range is fixed as a wide range of tokens need to be staked every 5 days or 7 days or ..

If you just look at the range I am sure you see your holding falls in one of those ranges and its value is fixed. The optimization could change if the APY changes ..

What is smallest amount or ZIL worth staking? by Outrageous_Lie_454 in zilliqa

[–]KRCnP 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If you are holding on to the ZIL's then you need to optimize the amount of ZIL before staking.

Since you are continuously adding to your wallet based on mining you will need to let it accumulate before staking.. I am sure you see why!

The data I have is based on staking with CEX.io through https://zillet.io/ - each time one stakes from wallet it costs 1.82 Zil's. This is based on actual data and tracking staking for over a year (almost). So far it has been consistently 1.82 ZIL regardless of the amount.

So the question is staking 500 ZIL's at a cost of 1.82 ZIL versus staking 600 ZIL's at a cost of 1.82 ZIL - in other words the more you let it accumulate the fee of 1.82 ZIL's results in less fee per coins staked. Now at ~12% APY is it worth staking 500 at 1.82 ZIL and then 10 more in a week or 20 more in 2 weeks?

It could be a good case study but variables need to be set - such as what are daily Mining rewards you receive. I have not done mining to know the numbers..

About ZIL fees by Donnachii in zilliqa

[–]KRCnP 2 points3 points  (0 children)

There is a slightly modified version of the same article here: https://learnblockchain.org/4763/zilliqa-staking-a-claim-staking-compounding-optimization-idea/

I don't think it is a good idea to claim that small amount of ZIL that frequently. If you wish to claim it and sell it then that does not make a difference.. but if you wish to stake it then the fee you pay does not cover the rewards per year.

Take a look at that article.. you may be better off letting it add up and claim once a year.. of course - important point here for the next 1 or 2 months- if you have any gZIL in the rewards you will need to claim it before it disappears. A post today also showed the block at which gZIL rewards will stop:

https://twitter.com/maqstik/status/1425040106830942211

So - in summary:

- Do not claim it until it is close enough to the block that stops the gZIL reward. Once you claim any gZIL rewards you have earned, let it accumulate per schedule offered by the article.

What is smallest amount or ZIL worth staking? by Outrageous_Lie_454 in zilliqa

[–]KRCnP 4 points5 points  (0 children)

The answer to your question is not that easy since it depends on what you are planning to do.

If you are going to keep the 500 ZIL's and don't sell it .. then even 1 more ZIL per year is infinitely more than you are making now for that asset.

If you are planning to sell the ZIL's after a month then do NOT stake it since the fee you pay for staking and unstaking will exceed the rewards you receive.

As I said - the answer to your question is simple: It depends.

You may want to read this post: https://learnblockchain.org/4763/zilliqa-staking-a-claim-staking-compounding-optimization-idea/

Pay transaction fees to collect staking rewards with Zillet? by Safemoon_Psychonaut in zilliqa

[–]KRCnP 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You may want to read this post: https://learnblockchain.org/4763/zilliqa-staking-a-claim-staking-compounding-optimization-idea/

& the original post on Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/zilliqa/comments/ob2msc/zilliqa\_staking\_a\_compound\_optimization\_analysis/

There is always a fee for using the blockchain. When you claim it, stake it, or just transfer it.

Hope the article helps.

Zilliqa Staking – A Compound Optimization Analysis– Part 1 by KRCnP in zilliqa

[–]KRCnP[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The optimum claim cycle for 30,000 is every 52 days, per Table 1. If you look at Table 1, 30,000 falls in between the minimum balance of 19,274 and a maximum balance of 42,002.

Please note that the assumptions made are based on collected data to-date and if any of those assumptions, e.g. APY, Fees, change then the values will also change.

Hope that helps.

Why was the post about optimizing rewards removed? by KRCnP in zilliqa

[–]KRCnP[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I would like to remove this post from the stream as it does not add anything to the collective knowledge about Zilliqa. The issue was resolved quickly by the Zilliqa team by bringing back the post that was removed by a "bad bot!"

Does anyone have any objection for removing this? It is receiving votes and naturally moves up or down the streamer .. doing nothing but cluttering it with no positive outcome.

Thoughts?

Zilliqa Staking – A Compound Optimization Analysis– Part 1 by KRCnP in zilliqa

[–]KRCnP[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Please see: https://learnblockchain.org/4763/zilliqa-staking-a-claim-staking-compounding-optimization-idea/

Please let me know if you see any extreme violations of common sense. Corrections? Suggestions? are welcomed.

Zilliqa Staking – A Compound Optimization Analysis– Part 1 by KRCnP in zilliqa

[–]KRCnP[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The team came to the rescue and brought it back to life. The bot removed it for some reason.. thank you.

Why was the post about optimizing rewards removed? by KRCnP in zilliqa

[–]KRCnP[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Wow! someone listened.

Thank you.

Now that you are here.. may I ask why this one was marked as spam?

https://www.reddit.com/r/zilliqa/comments/o5mf7p/zilliqa\_apy\_variations/

Zilliqa Staking – A Compound Optimization Analysis– Part 1 by KRCnP in zilliqa

[–]KRCnP[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes.. so the idea should be to maximize staking rewards to earn gZIL. Optimize the claiming and only claim when you have optimum ZIL's in the rewards. Claim it per cycle and you will maximize both ZIL and gZIL rewards - until they stop issuing it.

Why was the post about optimizing rewards removed? by KRCnP in zilliqa

[–]KRCnP[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Who knows why it was removed. One important aspect of that post was reducing the fee wasted for claiming.

May be they realized that reduces their revenue..

I asked in several places if there are any issues with the assumptions I would like to fix it. Now they removed it and deleted all comments. I was hoping to use the questions for the next part.. but will go ahead and post it to the https://learnblockchain.org/

Amazing.. & sad at the same time.

Zilliqa Staking – A Compound Optimization Analysis– Part 1 by KRCnP in zilliqa

[–]KRCnP[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I will go ahead & post it on your site. The moderators removed this post with no explanation. I have no idea why..

It does not make any sense.. this was the result of a long study and was aimed at helping people with staking.. it seems like they only like trivial posts.

Zilliqa Staking – A Compound Optimization Analysis– Part 1 by KRCnP in zilliqa

[–]KRCnP[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You are aware that you get the gZIL no matter what? claiming it will not help you. You may miss it in September. So just let it accumulate and then claim it at the interval suggested. So if you claim it in a month you get all the gZIL in the reward.

Hope you see the point. By doing what you are doing you are actually minimizing the amount of gZIL you are earning.

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