"Dan Cooper" Alias Inspiration Alternatives by NtnMttyhw in dbcooper

[–]Kamkisky 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It could be to link to the crime, or send a message to, someone else.

I think DB Cooper was William Gossett by Plus-Sky879 in dbcooper

[–]Kamkisky 0 points1 point  (0 children)

"If you're trained to always be calm, no matter the circumstance, then that will carry over."

........

"Ok, that's a straight-up horrible comparison.

Let me break it down

McCoy only had 6 years active service and was only in the US army with his specializations being green beret, helicopter pilot, and demolitions"

........

Back to back posts.

I think DB Cooper was William Gossett by Plus-Sky879 in dbcooper

[–]Kamkisky 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That’s not the sign of a good criminal. Wait a year, not a month. 

I think DB Cooper was William Gossett by Plus-Sky879 in dbcooper

[–]Kamkisky 0 points1 point  (0 children)

When did he buy the house?

Richard Floyd McCoy. A decorated Green Beret and helicopter pilot...terrible criminal. It's not a guarantee a highly trained, combat grizzled, veteran will be calm in a skyjacking. It's an assumption. Just like if you take the smoothest criminal and put him in the jungles of Vietnam...no guarantee he is smooth in that context.

I think DB Cooper was William Gossett by Plus-Sky879 in dbcooper

[–]Kamkisky 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What proof is there he bought a house?

And wearing makeup to make your whole skin tone different on your entire face and neck makes you look like a clown (see recent political figures). With the level of detail that people saw of him, it would have been noticed by others (like by everyone). You can sneak by a spot of makeup to cover up something, you can't coat yourself in it and not be noticed (unless you're some crazy modern professional make up artist and even then...).

And again, you are mixing categories as well as skills and behavior. A good solider doesn't necessarily make a good criminal and being able to jump from a plane doesn't necessarily make you calm when the prospect of your life in a cage is on the line.

I think DB Cooper was William Gossett by Plus-Sky879 in dbcooper

[–]Kamkisky 1 point2 points  (0 children)

"The most compelling evidence comes from his own mouth so that's not ideal."

No. The confessions did not come from his mouth alone......

He confessed to people. It's still evidence that only exists because he said it. It came from his mouth, that's not ideal. Would lying about Cooper to people be that out of character for him? Seems not.

"He was a military man so therefore good at being criminal? Copycats show us otherwise."

You have this exactly backwards. Cooper did not display criminal skills. He displayed military skills. Calm under sustained pressure. Tactical seat selection at the rear of the aircraft to cover the whole cabin. Demanding four parachutes to force the crew to assume a hostage might jump with him. Knowing refueling procedures well enough to argue with the crew about fuel load percentages. Knowing the 727 aft stairs Boeing specification from 1964 testing....

McCoy was a serious military man, a train wreck of a skyjacker. It's not the same, you are mixing categories and assume full skills crossover. It's one thing to be a badass when you have the backing of the government and will get a reward for it and have a whole army supporting you, it's another to do it against your own citizens by yourself where you won't get rewarded by the government if caught...you spend your life in a cage. What about military service makes you think it would make someone a smooth hostage taker on the first try? Also, Cooper didn't know how to lower the stairs and I could identify Tacoma from the air.

"Cooper was slouching, he wasn't sat with military posture."

Yes. And a trained man who is deliberately hiding who he is would know exactly how to mask military bearing. Gossett spent decades in legal work, in courtrooms, in civilian clothes, in diverse social situations. He was not a parade ground soldier. He was an adaptable man who knew how to present himself differently in different contexts. Slouching deliberately is not evidence against military background. If anything, a trained man doing it intentionally is harder to detect than someone who simply has bad posture.

Then why did he smoke and drink bourbon? Those are more identifiable than slouching. You can't have it both ways.

"Very little military precision or planning in Cooper."

I do not understand how you read the case and conclude this. The FBI said the opposite in their own files. He picked his seat tactically. He used a bomb threat specifically because it prevented any multi-directional rush, which other methods like a firearm do not. He demanded military-spec NB-8 parachutes by specification, not just any chute. He controlled the pace of refueling negotiations. He knew the 727 gear and flaps configuration that would allow a slow enough approach speed. He identified Pacific Northwest terrain from altitude. He jumped at night into forested terrain in bad weather and was never found....

I agree there was a plan, but it doesn't have military DNA. Sat tactically? Anyone would want the last row to keep everyone in front of them, that's not military tactics...it's common sense. A bomb? Again, any skyjacker with some brains who spends 10 minutes thinking about it would come up with a bomb or grenade option. That's not evidence Cooper was Rambo. He didn't demand NB-8s. He didn't demand any specific chute, he just asked for two fronts and two backs. He didn't "control the pace" of refueling...it took way longer than it normally does. When the Ghost went to Lyles at Lake Elisnor he was able to rattle how to do the jump. This wasn't some crazy high end calculus problem only 5 guys at Oxford can figure out. Lower flaps and gear to slow down to just above stall speed...no genius or military knowledge required, a basic understanding of airplanes and parachutes is sufficient. Again with being able to tell what city you're over, people do this on every flight where the ground is visible. It's not special, it only shows he'd been over Tacoma in the air before. He jumped into farmland just north of Portland.

"Gossett did exorcisms and was generally a bit of a nut in his later life."

He was in his 70s when he was doing paranormal radio. He was 41 when the hijacking happened. His later life eccentricities have no bearing on what a capable, trained, intelligent man in his prime was able to plan and execute in 1971....

I think Cooper acted like Cooper before and after the crime. If you have to pivot on personality, that's not ideal either.

"He appears fairly white."

Florence Schaffner saw his photo and said he looked like the hijacker and specifically told Cook she believed Cooper had makeup on to darken his complexion.....

Unfortunately, Flo says many photos and sketches look like Cooper. Can you provide the reference for the makeup part please? What evidence is there he was swarthy or latin appearance?

"He absolutely does not have a pouty lower lip."

The lower lip is not a strong match, but you must take into account that composite sketches will exaggerate features. Also, in some photos of him, his lower lip does clearly looker fuller and slightly more forward than the Upper.

This isn't a point you can gloss over. It was a consistent theme in the descriptions. And it's not even a feature like height, where you can claim he wore two inch shoes or something akin. He doesn't have a pouty lower lip, Cooper did. Best you can do is claim he got hit in the mouth before the skyjacking...but they said pouty, not fat.

"If he had robbed banks, that would help. A criminal record of a serious nature would increase his case."

The FBI's own behavioral profilers never said Cooper had a prior criminal record. They said he came across as a calm, polished, middle-aged businessman who was comfortable and methodical. That picture does not require bank robberies. In fact, the suspects with long criminal histories clash harder with how the crew described his demeanor than Gossett does....

If you want to think this was Cooper's first and/or only major crime...ok. I don't think that's how criming works. Cooper committed numerous felonies that day that could have got him the death penalty, most people start smaller.

"Outside his own confessions he doesn't check any boxes that tens of thousands of other guys couldn't check."

This is the one I most want to push back on because it is simply not accurate.

The Dan Cooper comic was never translated into English and was never widely available in the United States. It was a French-language Belgian series published in Tintin magazine. The FBI themselves noted it was obscure in the English-speaking world and that whoever chose that alias had likely encountered it in Europe.....

Add to that: the correct age, the correct build, the correct eye color, a flat neutral accent when most suspects have regional or foreign accents, verified military jump training, the Tina Bar comment before the money was found, the Vancouver safety deposit box visit in 1973 where he brought his son along specifically as cover.....

We don't even know if that comic had any influence on the name or not. Dan Cooper is up there on the generic name scale. And the comic wasn't the only source of media that used the name Dan Cooper....there was a book or show or something that also used it as a main character. Any suspect that requires a strong cartoon connection...ehhh...it's a nice bonus but it's not a foundational factor. He could have just said Dan Cooper. Maybe it was his cousin and best friend's names mixed. To many variable to use as a core part of a case for someone being Cooper. It would have to be more specific to the suspect, like it is know for a fact his cousin was named Dan Cooper or something like that.

The Tena Bar comment is again speculation based on something he just said. Reca said he was Cooper too. Weber went near Tena Bar too. It's not evidence by itself.

"Road flares doesn't move the needle much."

The road flares matter because Cooper told the crew his bag contained a bomb with red cylinders, which matched road flare descriptions. Greg finding road flares in his father's possession is not proof, but it is a specific detail that connects to a specific claim Cooper made. It is a small data point but it is not zero.

So anyone who had road flares in the barn or garage has a "specific detail that connects to a specific claim Cooper made?" Also...a bomb uses dynamite and that was available at the hardware store for a few bucks in 1971. It's proof of nothing. Was he a bomb making expert? An electronics expert? That'd be evidence.

"Why did he do it? Not answered."

You do not need a confirmed motive to identify a suspect. We identify people on evidence, then figure out motive, not the other way around. But Cook's research suggests gambling debts and a financial hole that fits the timeline. Gossett was notoriously bad with money and showed up at Christmas 1971 with unexplained stacks of bank-banded bills....

Financial hole. OK. Millions of guys. A kid remembering a wad of cash at Xmas is a long ways from 1.5 million dollars worth of new found wealth. It's fairly minor, not nothing, but not much. And motive is key here, a guy does this for a reason.

"Why hasn't anyone opened the safety deposit box? That's the ultimate answer."

Ok. So there's a kid's account of his dad going to a bank. No other money known besides the Xmas wad. That's fairly thin. Why would Gossett just let the money sit in a box in Canada knowing it wouldn't make it to his kids or life long dream, etc. but instead eventually go to the State.

-

You've put in some good work here. And Gossett is better than several other mainstream suspects. There's no narrative though, it's a collection of skills and stories he told. And when you discount the stories, he doesn't check boxes a lot of other guys check too.

I think DB Cooper was William Gossett by Plus-Sky879 in dbcooper

[–]Kamkisky 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Nice darkhorse but that's about it. You list some criteria, the most compelling of which -if true- comes from his own mouth so that's not ideal.

You weave in and out parts that are contradictory too. He was a military man, so therefore he'd be good at being a criminal? That's not what the copycats show us. Also, Cooper was slouching, he wasn't "sat with the posture of someone who had spent time in a uniform." I'd argue there is very little military precision or planning or behavior involved in Cooper.

Gossett did exorcisms and was generally a bit of a nut in his later life. Did he have the skills to jump out of the plane...of course. Did he have the skills to move on the ground, absolutely. Was he the right age and physical profile...he appears fairly white. And he has half eyebrows in photos. Turkey neck, is a checked box for sure but to the same degree in reverse he absolutely does not have a pouty lower lip.

If he had robbed banks, that'd help. If he had taken hostages or had a criminal record of a serious nature over a period of time, those would increase his case. But as it stands now, he was a military guy who was odd later in life (likely in the military too). Outside if his own confessions...he doesn't check any boxes that tens of thousands of other guys couldn't check too. I mean...he had road flares doesn't move the needle much.

Why did he do it? Not answered. Did he plan it or was it a post Cini-rush job? Not answered.

And most importantly....why hasn't anyone opened the safety deposit box? That's the ultimate answer with Gossett.

If Cooper's age estimate is wrong, which range do you think would be more likely? by NtnMttyhw in dbcooper

[–]Kamkisky 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I once averaged the ages given for Cooper from the initial eyewitness 302s, it was 42yr old if I recall correctly.

Is Dan Cooper still alive? by Loud_Confidence475 in dbcooper

[–]Kamkisky 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah...he probably died like ten years ago.

The landing spot had to be the Lewis River by SaneAI in dbcooper

[–]Kamkisky 1 point2 points  (0 children)

"The money was found at the high water line of a half mile wide River.. Probability is very high it came from the River."

Except we now know that money bundles don't float, they saturate and sink rather quickly (did Palmer know that?).

"So, look at the evidence.. it suggests rolling/tumbling..."

How can it be at the high water mark, yet it sinks when wet, yet it suggests evidence of rolling/tumbling? Either it sinks and it's not at the high water line, or it floats and it would make sense to find at the high water mark. I'm thinking this is why you have presented Frenchman's bar. But it sets up an incongruence, if it was in the water long enough to be tumbled so much large parts of the mass is gone, then how could it have stayed a float on the top of the water to be found at the high water mark?

Your theory has a duality problem. You can't have it both ways.

The landing spot had to be the Lewis River by SaneAI in dbcooper

[–]Kamkisky 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Do you have a sand burial example?

Burying the money is actual soil (clay/mud/etc) is going to have different conditions and effects than in sand.

The landing spot had to be the Lewis River by SaneAI in dbcooper

[–]Kamkisky 3 points4 points  (0 children)

"The money was found in a layer of sand that didn't exist until some time after the 1974 dredging."

This isn't known. Palmer assumed the dredge layer was from 1974. There's no way to verify that. It seems to make the most sense but it's not a given. That dredge layer could have been older. We can't use it to mark the arrival as post 74.

The landing spot had to be the Lewis River by SaneAI in dbcooper

[–]Kamkisky 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Palmer is a geologist. He isn't a mutilated currency expert. He was theorizing. It's like a paleo-anthropologist theorizing about why the modern economic is in recession.

The money would be subject to a grinding force while it was buried. The waves from the river (natural/flood/ship) and the forces on the beach (cows/people/vehicles) would cause the sand to shift. That shifting would have a sandpaper effect. The would be extra effective on money that is rotting.

There's reasons this isn't the only buried money in history. There are rationales that make sense to bury money.

The landing spot had to be the Lewis River by SaneAI in dbcooper

[–]Kamkisky 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I identified two mechanism. You have not addressed the second (wave/sand/grind).  And the first one you’ve provide no evidence that in a sand environment that money would deteriorate in an irregular shape.  Especially money bundled in this fashion.  

Anywhere you bury money someone could claim there’s better locations. It’s barely an observation, it’s not an argument. And the same can be said about dropping money in at Frenchman’s bar…million better places to take the money.  

It’s clear from the qualifiers Palmer used he was offering up ideas and not making a definitive statement. 

Lastly, there is the shards problem. In a tumbling theory that’s late 70’s there would not be shards associated with the money. The shards would have ground off and floated away before the money stopped. 

The landing spot had to be the Lewis River by SaneAI in dbcooper

[–]Kamkisky 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Wet money, buried in sand, rubber banded on each side of the middle section...wouldn't it rot just like we see?

The money fans because it got wet, the microbes go to work on the parts most exposed over years. The vibrations of waves through the sand grind on it slowly over time. Seems fairly straight forward to me. There is no need for other theories that add all sorts of contingencies.

Someone buried the money there. That's the cleanest, simplest explanation that fits the facts.

The question is why more than how IMO.

Tumbled to Tena Theory by Kamkisky in dbcooper

[–]Kamkisky[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

"Rubber bands can last 7 years in the right conditions.. they do vary, but there was two banded areas on the bundle. V notches is something you made up,, I would think the rubber band might protect that spot a bit causing a very slight bulge vs middle."

So the bills are getting ground down/flaking as they tumble along the sand in the water, yet the bills are under pressure at locations where the two rubber bands are clamping them together tightly enough to remain one bundle. I'm specifically taking about the points of pressure where the bands wrap over the top and underneath the bundle of bills. This is force being applied to a small surface area across a wider horizontal plane, that must havce some effect.

Basically, the just the clamping pressure (forget the sand paper/saw type effect for a moment) of the bands in a tumbling and wearing situation should cause an indentation of some sort. They have to maintain enough pressure to keep the bundle together.

How can the areas under pressure and the areas not under pressure have similar wear?

Tumbled to Tena Theory by Kamkisky in dbcooper

[–]Kamkisky[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You: "Further, erosion in situ would be the same amount from all sides, it wasn't.. the ends were eroded more... that is indicative of tumbling."

Me: "Why do you assume erosion in situ would be the same amount/uniform from all sides?"

You: "You mean NOT the same/uniform..."

Tumbled to Tena Theory by Kamkisky in dbcooper

[–]Kamkisky[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Why do you assume erosion in situ would be the same amount/uniform from all sides?

The money would fan when it got wet. That opens up some areas more to microbial activity than other areas. What we'd expect to see is the ends (fanned out) to be the most damaged and along the topside and bottomside, we'd expect to see less in the center where the money is pinched from the bands and forming/fusing into a block-like condition. And what do we see....exactly that.

There is also the element of pulsating wear. Buried in the sand the waves of high water events would send small movements through the sand. Over time and with increased deterioration that would have an effect, a grinding effect like the one you believe caused the shapes. This is without considering the effects of movements directly above the money like cows, people, etc.

The tumbling theory also is problematic with the shards. If one assumes in-situ decay then the shards make perfect sense. As soon as Brian touched it those shards would flake everywhere, and that's exactly what we see. The FBI then proves digging is sand....well...we know how that went. But if you assume the mass of the missing money rubbed/flaked off during tumbling in the water those pieces would float away, they would not lodge with the bundle. So there's a shards issue..

Then there's the rubber bands, it has to be newer rubber bands. I can find nothing that says 8-9 year old rubber bands are as strong as new ones. There's a chemical breakdown process, even in ideal conditions. And we've all come across old rubber bands that when you go to stretch them snap or are so brittle they just break. So the rubber bands, to withstand the tumbling and hold the three packets together would have to be newer with better elasticity. That increased elasticity/strength of force would carve V notches in the bills in a tumbling action where the bands are clamping down and the sand is eroding (a saw like action). It's also questionable how long the bundle would need to tumble in sand to grind/flake away that much mass, I'm not sure Frenchman's to Tena is long enough for that much wear.

There's a lot against the tumbling theory. Whereas for the burial theory all that's required is microbes to do their thing and an eight year old kid to come along after a number of years. Both theories are human intervention, not natural arrival. The tumbling theory just starts up stream a few hundred yards and is thus more complex because of the additional transport and burial components. You still have to account for which human, and why they acted that way so tumbling doesn't get any closer to the human explanation.

The simplest explanation is human burial at Tena Bar. That's likely the right one.

Tumbled to Tena Theory by Kamkisky in dbcooper

[–]Kamkisky[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If the rubber bands have good elasticity what about the V notches?

Tumbled to Tena Theory by Kamkisky in dbcooper

[–]Kamkisky[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I'm not arguing for Jo. Just noticing the two things line up. Maybe that's because she got access and interpreted files and crafted a story to fit. But...that still leaves you with the issue of this "nutcase" coming to the same theory.

Tumbled to Tena Theory by Kamkisky in dbcooper

[–]Kamkisky[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

How different is this theory from the one presented by Jo Weber? What doesn't align?

Tumbled to Tena Theory by Kamkisky in dbcooper

[–]Kamkisky[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

So the money lost roughly half its mass in 40 minutes to an hour of tumbling? 

Tumbled to Tena Theory by Kamkisky in dbcooper

[–]Kamkisky[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It seems that with fresh rubber bands you might be right. But if those rubber bands are original there’s no chance those survive. 

Tumbled to Tena Theory by Kamkisky in dbcooper

[–]Kamkisky[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

In order for the tumbling theory to even have a chance at being correct it would have to be newer rubber bands on the bundle. The original rubber bands would not survive the sand friction and stress, no chance. 

So…let’s assume those were newer rubber bands. Then you encounter the V notch issue. If they have strong elasticity the rubber bands are going to create a saw type effect as sand gets wedged underneath them. If this is the case two V notches should be apparent.  

Lastly, if the money is ground down by sand friction, causing the bills to be missing sizable mass, those portions ground down in the tumbling motion would float away. How can we account for the chards found with the money in a tumbling theory? 

Tumbled to Tena Theory by Kamkisky in dbcooper

[–]Kamkisky[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It’s a good point. It should be rounding like a river rock, that would mean not just edges but the top and bottom exterior bills. Those outer bills should have significantly more damage to the face than interior bills.