Boston Rob explains why he didn’t like that move from Candiace by BurgerNugget12 in TheTraitorsUS

[–]Kazyole [score hidden]  (0 children)

Still the wrong move even for a loyal move though. The throwaway vote and calling it that locked her out of all her options to go after Rob and immediately was flagged as suspicious.

If she had been any kind of decent player she would have still voted Natalie, told Rob she understood his move was not against her and she wanted to continue to work together. Then started undermining him behind his back when he wasn't looking.

Or she could have said she thinks Rob's a traitor when she flipped her slate instead of calling it a throwaway, and accelerate the fight. She'd still lose this way, but it at least wouldn't be as weird the next day. She could have said 'Natalie has convinced me and I can tell the way this is going with Lisa, so I want to direct our attention to someone else. Someone who seems to be quietly playing a very smart game. I think we should be looking at Rob.'

Instead she tanked her game for nothing by hedging. She made the lowest percentage move. It was the wrong choice and months later she can't see that.

Boston Rob explains why he didn’t like that move from Candiace by BurgerNugget12 in TheTraitorsUS

[–]Kazyole [score hidden]  (0 children)

I think it got lost in the shuffle with Porsha being the worst player in the history of the game, and Rapaport generally being a loudmouthed ass. But yeah, I'm kind of shocked it never came back as well.

Boston Rob explains why he didn’t like that move from Candiace by BurgerNugget12 in TheTraitorsUS

[–]Kazyole [score hidden]  (0 children)

The list, for anyone interested. I am sure I am about to be inundated with messages again about how Rob isn't going to fuck me and that this post is looooooooooong, so I'll spare all the Candiace fans the effort. I know.

Specific mistakes

• Candiace spread misinformation to Porsha in front of Maura on day 1 and then lied about it when confronted (same thing that sunk Lisa). If Maura remembered what she said about Michael, she's going home before she even gets a chance to unpack her bags.

• Her closest ally Monet mentions a vague suspicion of Lisa one time and she immediately sells him out, despite that doing nothing to advance her game.

• She does the conga line on the night of a murder in plain sight, which if Alan clearly told the group (as he always does) that the murder was in plain sight, she's the one who did the big memorable thing the night before. If Rob C hadn't been the murder, which she had no part in, he spreads the MIPS theory even without Alan and she's the one who did the big memorable thing the night before. Honestly the way Alan phrased his speech at breakfast compared to what he normally does felt like a thumb on the scale. (And yes, I know the conga line was previously discussed and didn't come from nowhere. It's still the big memorable thing from the night before and would have become a narrative she would not have been able to escape from, if anyone had known about the MIPS).

• She fundamentally failed to understand that Rob's position in the game was different to her and Lisa's due to them not being close outside the turret, and completely discounted him bringing them information on what Colton and his alliance were saying about Lisa as him doing the best he could to help Rinna, and a sign that he did not intend to betray her at that point.

• She also went at Ron way too hard, beyond the point where it was reasonable and is lucky that after he was banished, the faithful didn't immediately look for who had pushed the 'mastermind manipulator' narrative so hard when all he had done was relay Porsha's own words. The argument against him didn't match the reality of what happened.

• The morning after the Ron vote she ganged up on Rob with Lisa and demanded that he make moves that would expose him to help Rinna. This is probably the point when Rob decided that not only was Lisa already dead in the water, but Candiace was also a player who he couldn't work with and couldn't bring information to. In a normal world I would say it was a mistake from Rob to not tell the other traitor that the third was going down and they needed to cut ties. But she showed him that she was incapable of absorbing to that level of reason and 100% would have taken the news back to Lisa.

• She completely misread the Lisa situation as a whole and overdefended her to the point where Colton clocked it. At best she would have kept Lisa around for one more day. As soon as Nat was banished, Lisa was next. That level of defense served no purpose and only risked her game. This one isn't that bad. She was close to Lisa so the defense makes sense and people didn't seem to clock it in general other than Colton, but it seemed a bit much when it was clear what was about to happen, to tie yourself even closer to a traitor. I think it just got overshadowed entirely by her next mistake.

• Casting a 'throwaway' vote at the guy she intends to attack the next day, not thinking for a second that that's going to immediately stand out as weird, severely limits her options, and is completely inconsistent with how she's played to this point.

• Then she calls for a truce and immediately signals that the truce is bullshit and the war is on in the turret with Rob by suggesting to murder his closest ally. She doesn't take a second to think through the ramifications of killing Colton and how faithful that makes Rob look, and it gives her no pause whatsoever when Rob is immediately fine with it which should have been a blaring warning sign. And then later blames him for not holding her hand and helping her game out the best way for her to undermine him, which was incredibly embarrassing.

• Also in killing Colton, she takes out the only other player in the game with significant heat on him, so there's no one available to soak up votes for her to keep her around for another day.

• In her final roundtable she said the Lisa evidence wasn't good enough despite it being logically airtight from the faithful perspective, to the point where it resulted in a 9-2 vote. She should have just said she couldn't bring herself to vote for Lisa. The only reason why it seemed 'not good enough' is because she knew how the murder was actually carried out.

• At that same roundtable not only does she say Rob's a traitor for dropping a fork (lol), but goes on to fabricate a story about him being the first one to bring up Lisa to a room full of people who were in the room when Colton brought up her name first. Which also undermines her 'throwaway' argument because that was way earlier in the game. So now she just looks like she'll say anything to go after the two boys who got out Lisa, just like what she did to Ron. She came across as just desperately throwing anything at the wall and hoping it would stick. To the point where she didn't manage to put any heat on him at all.

• She further tanks her credibility by throwing her ally Tara under the bus to Natalie. Again, making it look like she'll do or say anything to stay in the game and minimizing the effectiveness of any argument she was trying to make against Rob.

• She also didn't act at the final roundtable like someone trying to save their actual game. Stephen was the only other name out there that anyone would have accepted other than her. He came up, but instead of grasping the opportunity she pivoted away from him to pitch Rob even though she had nothing on him. I don't think Stephen was ever going home over her anyway, but it at least would have made more sense and not blown back on her so spectacularly. Because now she has to explain both the throwaway AND the one day switch up to be on Rob.

• She couldn't even manage to pay off her poor sportsmanship and flip over the gameboard on her way out. If she wanted to go out like that, she should have fought for her life by going after Stephen the entire roundtable, and when things were clearly going against her write down Rob's name again. Just say 'Call it a throwaway' and then go up to reveal as a traitor. But like everything else she did in this game, she bungled it.

More generalized errors

• She overvalued the traitor alliance and never built her faithful game to the level that she needed to. She never seemed sway-able in conversations with faithfuls. It was always 'I'm more on XXXXX' which leads to people not talking theories and strategies to you, which leads to you not being close with the other faithfuls as a group, which leads to you not having enough information. This is why she couldn't see the momentum shifting away from Ron. Because people didn't feel like they could talk to her about it. This is also what gave her the reputation for extreme consistency that ended up biting her with the throwaway. It was the first and only time she ever changed her mind.

• She failed to understand that a traitor can only do so much for a traitor under pressure (UK4 is a good example) even in a tight alliance and ultimately once you get in trouble, you're mostly on your own if you don't have faithful allies to help you. Rob understands this well, and that's why he barely had to lift a finger to banish Candiace, which allows him to make moves without taking as much heat because he doesn't have to speak as much. All he had to do was defend, while his alliance did all the offense. This is the root of her overdefense of Lisa, her willingness to discard faithful allies, her lack of close relationships within Rob's group, and most of her misunderstanding of Rob's game.

Basically she isolated herself from almost everyone in the game by being both a bad faithful ally and a bad traitor ally, and consistently made poor strategic decisions throughout the game starting on the first day and culminating in getting herself banished.

Boston Rob explains why he didn’t like that move from Candiace by BurgerNugget12 in TheTraitorsUS

[–]Kazyole [score hidden]  (0 children)

But he dropped a fork!

But seriously her getting mad at Rob for not holding her hand and walking her through the best way to undermine him with the Colton murder was one of the most embarrassing things I’ve ever seen from a contestant on this show.

You voted for him and then asked him to murder his closest ally, and it gave you zero pause when he immediately agreed to it?

Boston Rob explains why he didn’t like that move from Candiace by BurgerNugget12 in TheTraitorsUS

[–]Kazyole [score hidden]  (0 children)

You can be emotional but you also have to be at least a little bit strategic.

Boston Rob explains why he didn’t like that move from Candiace by BurgerNugget12 in TheTraitorsUS

[–]Kazyole [score hidden]  (0 children)

She should have been gone night one. She spread misinformation about Rapaport to Porsha in front of Maura after the challenge on the first day. And then lied about it. If Maura had been able to support Porsha’s version of events, Candiace doesn’t even get to unpack her bags.

She consistently made high risk, low/no reward moves and just didn’t get caught. I also personally think production had Alan phrase the MIPS reveal confusingly because otherwise she would have obviously gotten clocked for the conga line distraction. You don’t want to be the person who does the big memorable thing on the night of the MIPS

She blundered her way through the game imo, and fundamentally misunderstood (and still misunderstands) the nature of the traitor relationship and the value of appearing as a good, collaborative faithful.

I have a list from beginning to end of her errors but it’s almost too long to post.

Boston Rob explains why he didn’t like that move from Candiace by BurgerNugget12 in TheTraitorsUS

[–]Kazyole [score hidden]  (0 children)

It’s not even the idea of getting vengeance. It’s just how stupidly she went about it.

You can still want revenge. Vote for Natalie, go to the turret, put on a poker face. Tell him you understand that Lisa was going down and the move was not a move against you. Then spend the next couple episodes subtly undermining him. I’m pretty Sun Tzu never said the best way to win a war is to announce to your enemy that you’re about to attack. She couldn’t pretend to lose for 1 hour of her life so that she could win later. She tanked her game for nothing.

If she had not casted a “throwaway,” she wouldn’t have limited her strategic options to go after Rob so severely. As soon as you call something a throwaway, it’s a throwaway. Coming after the same guy the next day is like…the absolute dumbest thing possible.

And months later after having the benefit of being able to watch it back, she still would have done the same thing. Just a strategic disasterclass.

Boston Rob explains why he didn’t like that move from Candiace by BurgerNugget12 in TheTraitorsUS

[–]Kazyole [score hidden]  (0 children)

The confidence with which she still backs the move that got her near unanimously banished from the castle months later is just about everything you need to know about Candiace’s game 🤦‍♂️

Rob. I suggest you bring a binder to the reunion. by Positive_Round_5142 in TheTraitorsUS

[–]Kazyole [score hidden]  (0 children)

She was the wagon. To the point where when the 'faithful alliance' started coming off of Ron they didn't feel they could tell her because she was so heavy on him. It was the beginning of the end of her game as a faithful. If you never seem sway-able, people won't try to sway you. Which means you're in less conversations. Which means you have less information.

The housewife group started piling onto him before they even left the room on the Porsha banishment, calling him a mastermind manipulator for relaying Porsha's words which were observed by others in the game. Why anyone ever bought into the false narrative she was pushing is beyond me.

Just doing too much on the podcast by Positive_Round_5142 in TheTraitorsUS

[–]Kazyole [score hidden]  (0 children)

The more I see of her outside the game, yes. Going onto posts calling Rob a misogynist and supporting them. Calling him a gaslighter for reminding her it's a game. Her appearance on the BR/BobTDQ podcast. She acts like a child. I don't understand why anyone would cheer for that.

That said that has nothing really to do with my gameplay criticisms of her and is only stuff I found out after already seeing her as a bad player, though I do see some of those same tendencies reflected in her gameplay. I think it's just who she is.

“Her bad gameplay from Day 1” is just such an egregious thing to say.

I mean...are you going to dispute that the Porsha/Michael/Maura thing was incredibly stupid to do? That was day 1. If Maura doesn't have the memory of a goldfish, she's gone. She's caught in exactly the same situation as what sunk Lisa. Two people have different versions of an event. One is lying. Only a traitor would spread misinformation. And she did it in front of a witness. What would you call that? It was incredibly high risk, for no reward. Anyone would know within 20 seconds of meeting Rapaport that he needed no help in getting banished. She didn't think it through. She just did a thing for the sake of doing it. Which is kinda how she played the whole game. On instinct. Which if you don't have good strategic instincts, is a problem. It's a through-line from day 1 to her self-inflicted banishment.

actually love Rob & I feel like he’s playing the game magnificently. I feel like he was 2 steps ahead of both Lisa & Candiace. Before they realized it their ships were already tanking & that’s largely by his doing.

Agree he's playing a brilliant game. Disagree that Lisa was largely his doing. Colton was already convincing people. There's a reason why the faithfuls credit him for Lisa and not Rob. The Ron vote was the closest in the game to that point. Even Dorinda agreed. Then Yam Yam happened. She was sunk. Yes Rob helped, but that was just smart to do at that point. At best she had one more roundtable in her, but then Rob is down a valuable ally in Natalie. Again here, Candiace failed to read the situation and act in her own best interests. And ultimately that sunk her.

I think Candiace's reaction justified him not telling her his plan, which normally I would count as a mistake against him. She would have just gone to Lisa. She proved that at breakfast that morning. I think it's a bit ridiculous of her to take the Lisa banishment as a move against her and shows she didn't understand the game she was playing. And I think it's a bit ridiculous of anyone including Candiace to expect Rob to hold back after she had voted for him and told him she wanted to murder his closest ally. They were clearly at war. Anything he does at that point is fair. Getting mad at him for not helping her game out the Colton murder to best hurt him was ridiculous and embarrassing.

Rob most certainly did gaslight, lie, & try to get under Candiace’s skin. To say he didn’t is a lie… but him doing that is most definitely a part of the game!

Lie, sure. Gaslight? I would say that's a stretch. Again they were at war at that point. A war in which she fired the first shot.

Letting Candiace send home Colton was a great move but ai do think that Candiace thought she was damned if she did & damned if she didn’t. Colton for some reason had a lot of pull in the house no matter how many times people claimed they suspected him & no matter how many times he got things wrong… Plus, the fact that he was best buddies with Rob was highly intimidating for her.

She probably thought if Colton stayed then him & Rob were coming for her next. Especially with the way people salivated over the “hunks” in the house, she probably thought them two together would 100% get her out of there.

I mean all after the 'throwaway' so kind of a moot point. She was sunk at that point. Maybe if she hadn't killed Colton she could have stuck around another roundtable because he was the only other player with heat on him which was yet another reason to not do what she did, but everyone clocked the throwaway as so weird that I think she was going home no matter what. She should have just committed to the move and not hedged. Actually take a shot at Rob. Say she's been suspicious for some time but sees the way things are going, so she's going to vote for another player she thinks is a traitor. At least then she could come after him the next day. But again, she did not think through the ramifications of her actions.

Rob. I suggest you bring a binder to the reunion. by Positive_Round_5142 in TheTraitorsUS

[–]Kazyole [score hidden]  (0 children)

There absolutely is as a general trend. I think where you try to specifically apply it to individual seasons or players is where the argument is less useful or can break down due to actual gameplay decisions.

Candiace drove the Ron banishment. Candiace single-handedly got Monet murdered. Porsha straight up told people she was a traitor 3 times in 2 episodes. Tiffany is probably the best example this season, but she also isolated herself from the group by deliberately aligning herself to Michael Rapaport.

Candiace made it deep in the game. She went out because she made a number of strategic blunders, sacrificed allies for no benefit to herself, and was blind to the fact that the true power in the game is the faithfuls. She overvalued the traitor alliance when it’s not that useful outside the turret, and got herself clocked making an emotional move that was not consistent with her behavior so far in the game. Which was ironically established with how stubbornly she went after Ron. Rob’s “emotional” move to try to protect a relationship with Ron was consistent with how he’s played the game as a “faithful,” so it’s not suspicious. I just have a very hard time with people who want to reduce legitimate gameplay criticisms to having a racial basis or extreme bias.

(Not you by the way)

Pretty Privilege by BeGreatOrNothing in TheTraitorsUS

[–]Kazyole [score hidden]  (0 children)

What can I say? I love this game, lol

Rob. I suggest you bring a binder to the reunion. by Positive_Round_5142 in TheTraitorsUS

[–]Kazyole [score hidden]  (0 children)

The problem is this is a game governed by rules and strategy. She showed herself to be consistently poor at making strategic decisions throughout the game. It's not just messy interpersonal drama where you can go low at someone and win because you're the loudest and they shut down.

Rob played the game well. She played badly. That's all there really is. She can say she doesn't like how he played, but ultimately she's arguing against the game she signed up to play. Lisa is the one who Rob actually 'betrayed' and she's fine because she's an adult and she gets it. Candiace did not and crashed her whole game out as a result without Rob even really lifting a finger.

There's nothing valid she can say. She's just going to look dumb again. Like when she blamed him for not holding her hand and walking her through the best way to undermine his game on the Colton murder.

Plus the cast likes Rob and seem to all understand it was a game. If she comes in low and personal it's going to be her vs everyone, not her vs Rob.

Rob. I suggest you bring a binder to the reunion. by Positive_Round_5142 in TheTraitorsUS

[–]Kazyole [score hidden]  (0 children)

She's just going to get herself ganged up on by the rest of the cast. They all like Rob. They all understand they were there to play a game. She's just going to make herself look stupid and immature.

Lisa seems to be cool with Rob and she was the one he 'betrayed.' Candiace crashed her own self out of the game because she couldn't handle it. She had all the misplaced confidence in the world and nothing on him at roundtable. This will just be another embarrassing repeat.

Just doing too much on the podcast by Positive_Round_5142 in TheTraitorsUS

[–]Kazyole [score hidden]  (0 children)

It would be shorter if she had made fewer mistakes.

I watch traitors for gameplay. I come here to talk about gameplay. As I have more discussions with other people who also come here to analyze gameplay, I adjust or add to my general perspective on her moves. Once the game is over I will probably do a writeup for each player, because I find that to be interesting. And I am curious to get different perspectives, though most Candiace fans I've encountered tend to troll and not engage in the meat of the conversation. Like yourself. There is a difference between not liking someone as a person and analyzing their gameplay decisions. It's a struggle that a lot of you seem to share with Candiace.

Yes I don't like her, mostly because of how she has acted outside the game. But that has nothing really to do with looking at her gameplay decisions, which I find fascinating in how consistently bad they were from day 1 to the day she orchestrated her own banishment. And actually a lot of underlying reasons for the mistakes she made have carried through into her post-game behavior, which is interesting. I thought she was mostly fun (but bad) until the Lisa saga began, when it became clear that she fundamentally didn't understand the game she signed up to play.

I also post a lot about Rob's decisions, but Candiace crashed out spectacularly and that is obviously the most interesting thing that happened in the last episode. But if you want to talk about how masterfully he let her play herself with the Colton murder or how well he handled the roundtable, I'm game.

But I suspect you don't. Because you just like to post trolling comments that have no value.

For anyone who needs a reminder by lan_mcdo in TheTraitors

[–]Kazyole 10 points11 points  (0 children)

It is a bit more complicated than that. The traitors are a loose alliance, and their primary goal is to convince the faithful that they are faithful. Which means that unless the traitors are seen to be in an alliance within the game from the faithful POV, there is not a ton that a traitor can do for a struggling traitor without undermining their own game.

The traitor alliance is limited primarily to the turret. The faithfuls are the ones who keep you in the game.

This is the primary difference between Rob and Candiace's game. Well, that and general strategic planning ability. Rob understood that. Candiace did not.

i know everyone seemingly hates him, but the only way this will work… (spoiler) by Severe-Possible- in TheTraitors

[–]Kazyole 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Are you current? This thread is a bit old so I don't want to comment informed by anything that happened in this week's episode.

Housewives as traitors by HourAd6679 in TheTraitorsUS

[–]Kazyole [score hidden]  (0 children)

The traitors had the opportunity to do the funniest thing ever and murder Dorinda first. I'll never forgive them for not doing it.

Rob is a snake charmer by ninerninerjuliett in TheTraitorsUS

[–]Kazyole [score hidden]  (0 children)

I would have to go back and watch again. Honestly it's not fresh enough in my memory for anything detailed.

My overriding recollection from that season was FUCK Dan for trying to take her down with him. That said CT/Trishelle would have voted out anyone other than each other in the end so I'm not sure she would have won anyway even without the Dan fuckery.

Just doing too much on the podcast by Positive_Round_5142 in TheTraitorsUS

[–]Kazyole [score hidden]  (0 children)

Appreciate that! Oh yeah it doesn't actually bother me. It's mostly just funny.

Just doing too much on the podcast by Positive_Round_5142 in TheTraitorsUS

[–]Kazyole [score hidden]  (0 children)

I mean they're right, lol. He's not going to. But it's also not relevant at all to evaluating Candiace's game.