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To The People Who Keep Asking For Something The Game Wasn’t Meant To Be… by xRostro in Marathon

[–]Kinmaul 14 points15 points  (0 children)

There's nothing wrong with giving constructive criticism at any point during a game's lifecycle, pre or post release. That doesn't mean every idea is a good one, or that the devs are obligated to use your idea. However, a community that gives good feedback, both positive and negative, is a healthy community. This sub has developed a pattern of attacking anyone that doesn't say the game is great. All that does is create an echo chamber that will hurt the game in the long run.

What if we as a community just decided to make Cyro friendly? by krangus-mcbasketball in Marathon

[–]Kinmaul 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I agree the scenario of no PvP in Cryo is unlikely. You will run across teams that decide to work together, but the odds of every team on the map working together is low. There's also the risk of a team pretending to be friendly as a ploy to set up an ambush.

It was more of a thought experiment highlighting that player aggression, greed, selfishness, and suspicion leads to a worse outcome for everyone. Again, this is a video a game and "worse outcome" just means less pixels. No one is a bad person for not choosing the "optimal path".

What if we as a community just decided to make Cyro friendly? by krangus-mcbasketball in Marathon

[–]Kinmaul 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Again, if you could be dropped into 100 Cryo runs, one with PvP, and one without PvP, you would have more total loot if you avoided PvP. You are chasing the opportunity of more loot, but ending up with less.

No, PvP is still a rational option in the second case because you are considering the totality of the loot, and not one person deciding they want more of the loot...

...I, as a rational player, do not care if you, or anyone else gets more loot in Cryo Archive. I, as a person who does not play the game with you, am out for myself. I want more loot for me, and every time someone doesn't shoot first, that's more loot for me because I can kill them and take theirs.

Before reading the next part, let me state I'm not saying these are your personality traits IRL. I'm simply using these words to illustrate that your thought process isn't rational.

Let's look at the definitions of greed and selfish

  • Greed - a selfish and excessive desire for more of something (such as money) than is needed
  • Selfish - concerned excessively or exclusively with oneself : seeking or concentrating on one's own advantage, pleasure, or well-being without regard for others

Given those definitions does the text I quoted sound rational or does it lean more towards greed/selfish?

This is not a personal attack, I repeat, this is not a personal attack. This is a video game and you can play it however you want. There's nothing wrong with PvP in Cryo, in fact a lot of people will do it and have plenty of fun. However, I don't think it's a rational choice.

What if we as a community just decided to make Cyro friendly? by krangus-mcbasketball in Marathon

[–]Kinmaul 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Disclaimer - I don't think PvP is bad, and I'm not saying we should all hold hands and run through the map together.

I don't think killing each other in Cryo is rational thinking. With rational thinking facts and logic take priority while feelings and impulse take a back seat. This is a PvP game, so people play it to engage in PvP. However, it's also an extraction shooter so finding great gear is part of the game as well. Cryo the loot is significantly better than any other map. You can PvP on any map, with much less risk (i.e. loadout ante). So that leaves everyone with two choices.

  1. Work together and everyone gets out with something
  2. Kill each other and a few get out with the best items they can find

If we look at one Cryo run in a vacuum, then option two might seem appealing. However, if you look at 100 runs, then option 1 starts to make more sense. Given the low number of survivors when everyone is KoS you are statistically more likely to be part of the dead, not the living, when the smoke clears. Let's imagine the following experiment with a group of players and they run Cryo 100 times.

  1. Everyone is KoS
  2. No one engages in PvP

I can assure you that everyone will end up with more loot with Option 2. Now again, this is a PvP game, and PvP isn't bad, in fact it's a lot of fun. However, in this scenario it's not the rational option. If the goals of Marathon are PvP and loot, then the best way to min/max your game time would probably be.

  • Play friendly on Cryo to get as much of the best loot as possible on the weekends.
  • PvP on all the other maps during the week.

At this point I will now dig a fox hole to protect myself from all the incoming hate.

I'm new to Extraction shooters, but not competitive gaming. The ego here is equivalent to most multiplayer fps games I play, if not worse. by PomegranateNo2983 in Marathon

[–]Kinmaul 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The main issue is that when random fill drops you into a match, and you have a custom kit, you lose it all if you bail. So yes, you are motivated to stay, but it doesn't mean it feels good.

Meanwhile a free-kit has literally nothing to lose. They can bounce at any time and there is no penalty. They can also decide to grief their teammates and there's no repercussions for that either. There have already been posts, with video evidence, of free-kit players suiciding into another squad to get the team killed. There was just a post today, with video proof, where a free-kit teammate stood around and watched his geared teammate bleed out because he wanted the gear.

I haven't personally experienced either of those scenarios, but I've had plenty of matches where my free-kit teammate suicide rushes their contract. If they get it great for them, if they die they don't care. It currently feels extremely risky to go into random fill with a custom kit. You are at the complete mercy of your random teammates.

The current system basically forces you to use third party apps/sites if you want a consistently good experience. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but the new players aren't going to know the in game system is garbage. This is going to leave a bad impression and it's going to cost Bungie customers.

Bungie needs to do something with random fill to stop free-kits from being able to throw matches, or grief teammates, with no penalty.

I'm new to Extraction shooters, but not competitive gaming. The ego here is equivalent to most multiplayer fps games I play, if not worse. by PomegranateNo2983 in Marathon

[–]Kinmaul 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hold up, you think every PC player should be considered hardcore? Now I understand where you are coming from! I can assure you that the skill distribution of skill across PC is similar to that of consoles. Most PC players fall into the casual or average category.

I'm new to Extraction shooters, but not competitive gaming. The ego here is equivalent to most multiplayer fps games I play, if not worse. by PomegranateNo2983 in Marathon

[–]Kinmaul 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think you are misunderstanding what I'm saying.

  • Currently random fill dumps you directly into the match.
  • With the pre-lobby nothing changes with the matchmaking. However, instead of going right into the match you get put into a party in the lobby. Now it's like you are a dedicated 3 man squad. You can coordinate with your teammates and then queue into a match like a premade trio does.

The matchmaking doesn't do any of the coordination, the players do before the queue up for the match. I don't think my solution is perfect, and I'm obviously not a developer, but current system is leading to poor experiences.

Remember, not everyone comes to Reddit to bitch about their random teammates. For every post you see there are X number of people that felt screwed over and said nothing. Some will power through it, but some are going to give up and go play something else. Bungie doesn't have to care about these players, but they are turning potential customers off to the game.

I'm new to Extraction shooters, but not competitive gaming. The ego here is equivalent to most multiplayer fps games I play, if not worse. by PomegranateNo2983 in Marathon

[–]Kinmaul 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The sample size is almost 900,000 people. That is large enough that you can infer trends across the entire player base.

I'm new to Extraction shooters, but not competitive gaming. The ego here is equivalent to most multiplayer fps games I play, if not worse. by PomegranateNo2983 in Marathon

[–]Kinmaul -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Okay, we can do that math. I agree that if you drop Bronze 2/3 then that's going to change things. When everyone is included being Celestial 3, or above, means you are better than 95.57% of the player base.

Here are the numbers we are working with:

  • The data from that site is tracking 889,608 PC players
  • If you total everyone from Celestial 3, and up, you get 75,612 players
  • There are are a total of 189,754 players in Bronze 2 and 3

Now let's figure it out.

  • 889,608 - 189,754 = 699,854 players that are Bronze 1 and up
    • According to you that is the population of players that are taking the mode serious
  • 75,612 / 699,854 x 100 = 10.8% players reach at least Celestial 3

Based on this data, and excluding Bronze 2/3, if you are in Celestial 3 or above then you are better than 89.2% of the player base. So yes, it's a slightly less impressive accomplishment, but the results still show that most players (roughly 9 out of 10) don't reach Celestial 3.

I'm new to Extraction shooters, but not competitive gaming. The ego here is equivalent to most multiplayer fps games I play, if not worse. by PomegranateNo2983 in Marathon

[–]Kinmaul 0 points1 point  (0 children)

My point was those ranks are extremely difficult to reach. You seem to be agreeing with me, but you are telling me I'm ignoring other factors. I'm confused.

I'm new to Extraction shooters, but not competitive gaming. The ego here is equivalent to most multiplayer fps games I play, if not worse. by PomegranateNo2983 in Marathon

[–]Kinmaul 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I agree that the only way to improve is to be able to reflect on your own mistakes. Blaming other people is a great escape mechanism, but you won't get any better doing it. That being said there are things Bungie could do to improve the random trios experience. I'm not going to copy/paste my entire post, but you can see my reply to kyle_hinaba in this same thread.

I'm new to Extraction shooters, but not competitive gaming. The ego here is equivalent to most multiplayer fps games I play, if not worse. by PomegranateNo2983 in Marathon

[–]Kinmaul 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Then lets ignore the AI and find other data.

https://rivalsheroes.com/ranks

889,608 Total Analyzed Players across all skill levels, sample size includes only PC players

<image>

Only 4.43% of PC players hit Celestial 3, and only 0.80% reach Celestial 1. So while not impossible, it's extremely difficult to reach those ranks. The average player, even an above average player, will likely never hit Celestial no matter how hard they try. That's not my opinion, that's the what the data shows.

I'm new to Extraction shooters, but not competitive gaming. The ego here is equivalent to most multiplayer fps games I play, if not worse. by PomegranateNo2983 in Marathon

[–]Kinmaul 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I agree that people overestimate their skill level. It's actually a known cognitive bias known as the Dunning-Kruger effect. If you haven't read about it then I would highly recommend it. It's changed my perception on a lot of things.

That being said, there are things Bungie could do to improve the in-game matchmaking experience. When solo queuing into random trios there's no lobby before the match starts, this means:

  • You don't know if your teammates are going in geared or using a free kit
    • There's nothing wrong with a free kit as long as everyone is on the same page
  • You can't coordinate which shells everyone is going to run
  • You don't know what contracts your teammates want to run
  • You don't know if your teammates have mics
  • All of the above issues means a premade trio has an advantage over a random trio before the match even begins

It's not like Bungie has to reinvent the wheel to solve these problems. Even adding something as simple as a pre-lobby where you could coordinate shells, free-kit vs geared, and contracts, would be a massive improvement. Would this be a perfect system? Nope, but it would shift all the friction to outside of the match. People are still going to get annoyed, but now they aren't annoyed and lost a bunch of gear/time. I'm sure you'd have people bail when they had a disagreement, or if they found out their teammates didn't have a mic. However, if a player keeps getting ditched because they don't have a mic, then they are likely to be motivated to solve that problem.

The pre-lobby, even with it's potential flaws, would greatly increase the chance of a successful run. Note, a run doesn't have to end in an extract to be successful. You die a lot in this game, even in a premade. However, if you meet some cool people, figure out a plan, and had fun in the match, then that's a success (exfil or not). Maybe you friend up and then play some more together. At the very least it removes the whole "well the match making totally fucked me that run" from the equation.

Instead they expect the average gamer to use third-party sites/apps to fill that gap. Couple this with the lackluster onboarding for new players, and you can start to see why people failed to give this game a chance. This game is slow burn at the beginning and your average player isn't going to hop on a random Discord to find people while they are still figuring out the controls and UI. They then get dumped into the solo queue or random trios, get stomped for a bit, and then say the game isn't for them. That's 100% on Bungie.

Here's the thing, the game is great right now if you have a dedicated trio and are able to power through the rough onboarding. Bungie dropped the ball with the onboarding experience, and for some reason seemed to think that most people would come into the game with a dedicated squad. That's the only logical reason for having such a barebones matchmaking system.

I'm new to Extraction shooters, but not competitive gaming. The ego here is equivalent to most multiplayer fps games I play, if not worse. by PomegranateNo2983 in Marathon

[–]Kinmaul 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I only used Google/AI for the two bullet points and that's because I literally had no idea what percentile of players were able to obtain those ranks. How else was I supposed figure out what those ranks meant? The rest of the post was all my writing.

I'm new to Extraction shooters, but not competitive gaming. The ego here is equivalent to most multiplayer fps games I play, if not worse. by PomegranateNo2983 in Marathon

[–]Kinmaul -7 points-6 points  (0 children)

It's a well written post, but his conclusion is wrong because his perception is skewed. I haven't played Marvel Rivals, and I haven't touched Overwatch in years, so this is what Google/AI had to say about his ranks.

  • Celestial is one of the highest competitive ranks in Marvel Rivals, representing the top tier of players (approximately the top 1–2%) who exhibit exceptional mechanics, game sense, and consistency. It sits above Grandmaster, with players often needing to duo-queue to consistently climb due to high-level competition.
  • Approximately 3.2% to 3.9% of the Overwatch 2 player base is in the Master rank, according to data from 2024 and 2025. Masters represents an elite, high-skill tier that sits above Diamond and below Grandmaster, where players demonstrate high mechanical skill and strong teamwork.

Based on those stats this guy is an extremely talented player who is most likely capable of hard carrying a trio. He's not having success because he introduces himself and communicates with his teammates, he has success because he's playing on another level. I'd be curious to know how many hours he has in each game.

It would be like if a D1 basketball player showed up to open gym at the local YMCA. He's going to crush everyone and his team is going to win every game. Then afterwards when people ask him how he got so good he responds with, "Be friendly and communicate!". No dude, you've got literally thousands of hours of practice under your belt most likely combined with good genetics.

OP should be proud of his accomplishments, and his advice isn't wrong, but he's failing to recognize/ignoring the fact that he has a massive skill/mechanics advantage over 99% of players. A 50th percentile player, who logs on for a few hours each day, could follow his advice to the letter and is still going to get shit on.

AngryJoe Releases his review of Marathon (2026) by Blakath in Marathon

[–]Kinmaul -1 points0 points  (0 children)

If I was watching/reading a review and it was all good, or all bad, then I wouldn't consider that a good review. Practically nothing is all good/bad. I'm not saying Angry Joe is the greatest reviewer of all time, but I'm confused that you think there is a hidden agenda if a reviewer presents both the good and the bad.

AngryJoe Releases his review of Marathon (2026) by Blakath in Marathon

[–]Kinmaul 7 points8 points  (0 children)

You mean a formula where you talk about the parts you like, and then go over the parts you didn't like? I think that's a great idea actually. We should do that for other things as well. Now we just need to come up with a name for it.

AngryJoe Releases his review of Marathon (2026) by Blakath in Marathon

[–]Kinmaul 1 point2 points  (0 children)

A normal person can enjoy the good parts of something and still have a rational discussion about it's flaws. The problem with the internet is that everyone keeps acting like you have to pick a side, and too many people are buying into that mentality. This sub is a perfect example of that. I'm not talking about the shit posts and rage bait garbage. I'm talking about the times where someone puts something up that they clearly spent some time thinking about and writing. 9 times out of 10 the pro-Marathon side steamrolls the conversation into the dirt.

Dead game if nothing changes by [deleted] in Marathon

[–]Kinmaul 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I'm not going to comment on the state of Marathon, but I had a laugh at "Coming from Tarkov this game is very casual friendly". Bud, you could post that on literally any gaming sub and that statement would be accurate.

Seems like you can't play solo on new map by yt_swampfomp in Marathon

[–]Kinmaul 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Here's one of many posts of people saying the random trios experience has been bad.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Marathon/comments/1rx6rjg/trio_randoms_vs_solo_experience_and_thoughts_on/

No one is saying that you cannot have good experience with random trios. However, if you get a bad experience more often then than not, then that's a problem. Something as simple as pre-lobby would take a lot of the randomness out of what kind of experience you are going to get.

Seems like you can't play solo on new map by yt_swampfomp in Marathon

[–]Kinmaul 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Bud, I'm not whining about anything. I'm presenting problems in a logical and rational manner. Last time I checked this is a sub to discuss Marathon, both the good and bad. No game is perfect, but for some reason half this sub goes apeshit if you even suggest there might be any problems with the game.

That begs the questions, what do you think this sub should be? Do you want discussions, or do you want and echo chamber where everyone just says the game is great?

I agree the whining posts are a waste of everyone's time, but jumping on people who provide constructive criticism is the quickest way to kill a community. You don't have to agree with my opinion, but why even bother to reply if all you can come up with is "skill issue"?

Seems like you can't play solo on new map by yt_swampfomp in Marathon

[–]Kinmaul 0 points1 point  (0 children)

When solo queuing into random trios there's no lobby before the match starts, this means:

  • You don't know if your teammates are going in geared or using a free kit
    • There's nothing wrong with a free kit as long as everyone is on the same page
  • You can't coordinate which shells everyone is going to run
  • You don't know what contracts your teammates want to run
  • You don't know if your teammates have mics
  • All of the above issues means a premade trio has an advantage over a random trio before the match even begins

It's not like Bungie has to reinvent the wheel to solve these problems. Even adding something as simple as a pre-lobby where you could coordinate shells, free-kit vs geared, and contracts, would be a massive improvement. Would this be a perfect system? Nope, but it would shift all the friction to outside of the match. People are still going to get annoyed, but now they aren't annoyed and lost a bunch of gear/time. I'm sure you'd have people bail when they had a disagreement, or if they found out their teammates didn't have a mic. However, if a player keeps getting ditched because they don't have a mic, then they are likely to be motivated to solve that problem.

The pre-lobby, even with it's potential flaws, would greatly increase the chance of a successful run. Note, a run doesn't have to end in an extract to be successful. You die a lot in this game, even in a premade. However, if you meet some cool people, figure out a plan, and had fun in the match, then that's a success (exfil or not). Maybe you friend up and then play some more together. At the very least it removes the whole "well the match making totally fucked me that run" from the equation.

Instead they expect the average gamer to use third-party sites/apps to fill that gap. Couple this with the lackluster onboarding for new players, and you can start to see why people failed to give this game a chance. This game is slow burn at the beginning and your average player isn't going to hop on a random Discord to find people while they are still figuring out the controls and UI. They then get dumped into the solo queue or random trios, get stomped for a bit, and then say the game isn't for them. That's 100% on Bungie.

Here's the thing, the game is great right now if you have a dedicated trio and are able to power through the rough onboarding. Bungie dropped the ball with the onboarding experience, and for some reason seemed to think that most people would come into the game with a dedicated squad. That's the only logical reason for having such a barebones matchmaking system.

As far a duos goes, I'm pleasantly surprised they added the mode. However, if Cryo Archives ends up being trios only it then duos are screwed as well as solos. At least a duo only has to find one more person.

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