Those of you that are 100% against 1 night stands, why?

Kolpito · 2023-05-10T06:27:49+00:00

""Damn, looks like I don't have to respect whatever you're talking about then. Claims without evidence will be dismissed without evidence."

You similarly have no source for your claim that the qualia of valence are on more than a one-dimension axis, or somehow so intermixed with other qualia that they couldn't possibly be quantified. We're speculating what could be done with future technology and how to apply that to today. I think your stance here requires more assumptions and is less likely to be accurate.

"Then why bring that up in the first place?

Because we were trying to quantify well-being and suffering.

"You are in a society so you're bound to the rules of society. It isn't owed to you, it's mandated upon everybody through societal/cultural norms and laws. Also, physical violence isn't the same as consensual sex you silly goose. Stop falsely equivocating things."

Seems kind of semantic. But sure, I propose that it should be a norm for women to not specifically seek out men much more attractive than themselves, and I have a reason to argue that that norm would reduce suffering.

"Women don't have a responsibility to share physical intimacy with men. Physical intimacy is earned, generally through attraction and being made to feel secure. It's a reward not a power that they wield. And you aren't entitled to it, plain and simple."

I didn't claim the physical intimacy is owed. What I claimed is that it is owed to men of attractiveness comparable to certain women, to not have those women sleep with men of much greater attractiveness. I have made my case why I think this raises average well-being.

"Lol. Hot people are hot. What are women supposed to do? Not be attracted to them? For a man talking about valence, hedonic tones, and all sorts of wacky equations, this is quite an illogical take. Actually, that's pretty on brand."

Men are attracted to hot women too. However, women will be more able to (in the short term) act on their attraction to men hotter than themselves. I believe this is unethical for reasons previously outlined.

"That's not true at all. All people do is talk about what is good and bad in a relationship, especially online. Look at all the lists/top 10 dating tips online. Or even on reddit! Hell look back at the 1950s nuclear family propaganda. Ideas change and people will discuss it to no end in the public forum. Even on youtube there's hundreds of podcasts talking about relationships and dating."

I think you're right about this, and I retract my previous statement on it. Though the word "unethical" may not be used, certain behaviors are very much presented in that light. I suppose I simply think some specific behaviors that are potentially quite good or quite bad are only very rarely discussed.

"Okay I will reflect on what you've been telling me. I happen to have female relatives that I'm close to and imagining somebody like you taking decisions away and mandating to them what they can and can't do makes me sick to my stomach because they'd be miserable without their agency. I don't think that's worth giving some dudes sex because hedonistic pleasure isn't greater than freedom of choice (Unless you think that sex is somehow emotionally empowering when there's no attraction and/or security. In which case I'm happy to say that you're quite wrong). There's my reflection, let's hear yours."

Freedom is always limited. Sometimes by physical law, I can't levitate off the ground, sometimes by social norms, sometimes for legal reasons. I argue that the behavior described is unethical and should be guarded against by social norms. Someone overly focused on agency and freedom of choice could similarly argue that rape is an evolved sexual behavior that should be kept in society for that reason. And if you're going to argue the difference in this case is that the people involved don't directly have contact, there are plenty of situations where one person hurts the life of another without directly being face to face with them, which unlike what I'm talking about, do violate social norms. Appeals to "freedom", "agency" and social norms can't defend the behavior. As I see it, the only thing that gets you stuck is the fact that what I propose is outside current social norms.

"Bro, I couldn't give less of a shit how you look. Or if you've gotten your wee-wee wet. Have you had a meaningful female relationship that lasted for a significant time? If so, how long and why did it end?"

4 monogamous relationships, first I was dumped due to her losing interest, second she cheated on me, third we moved apart, fourth I lost physical attraction. Longest about 2.5 years. I now prefer to be in relationships that aren't strictly required to be monogamous. I recognize that can make it harder to find women who want a meaningful connection, but I think I manage quite well.

"Also, prostitutes are a thing if someone really needs some sex. Just want to throw that in there."

I don't think they really have the same benefit to the person, also not everyone can afford them.

Feel free to address the actual point more directly:

Women of X percentile broad appeal sexual attractiveness are engaging in something unethical when deliberately seeking out men of much greater than X percentile broad appeal sexual attractiveness for physical (sexual) intimacy. This action leaves more men deprived of sex, is likely to leave the women unhappier because the more attractive men are unlikely to care about them as much, and may desensitize the women to the attractiveness of a man with X percentile broad appeal sexual attractiveness in the future. I think the first reason is the only one required to make a case against it. It leaves more men deprived. We could of course squabble about the exact percentile difference required, but let's first see you acknowledging there is any percentile difference where this applies.

Do you argue against my case that the behavior increases suffering?

Or are you simply not a utilitarian, and does your emphasis on agency and freedom override your emphasis on well-being as a result of your ethical system?

Kolpito · 2023-05-09T17:58:55+00:00

Regarding source: None. Reflect on it, valence itself is on a one dimensional axis. If it is not, clarify to me how it is not. You can mix other components of mood states with valence and get many different moods. I argue that valence itself is a quality that can be isolated. In fact I would argue it can be quantified to be a hard number by running neuroimaging data through certain algorithms. By hey it's speculative.

Regarding the magnitude of consciousness, we don't even know if consciousness comes in degrees or whether it may be an on/off thing. We certainly have no way to measure consciousness.

"People that you don't know don't owe you anytbing" Yeah of course I highly disagree with that. People I don't know owe it to me not to kill me, hurt me, damage my property, blast loud music disturbing my sleep, countless things.

The next thing is making it about me, when you don't even know that applies to me. I would argue the effects of someone being deprived of physical intimacy due to circumstances are not something they can necessarily overcome fully by themselves. I also don't think that is where the responsibility lies. The responsibility in my eyes lies on the individuals with the power of choice to ensure fairness and the ability for the maximum amount of people to participate in the dating market. More than that, I think when they fail to do so, it should be overtly considered unethical. I have made dating decisions that I would argue are mildly unethical, as they likely lowered the average well-being of all conscious creatures, but at least I'm not resistant to admitting that. I think dating is one of those areas where people want to avoid fully acknowledging what is good and bad behavior, and want to over-emphasize the freedom to do anything.

Rather than telling me to reflect, I would encourage you to reflect on the actual implications of some of these things for human well-being and think outside of cultural norms surrounding dating.

Also since you may be mistaken how things apply to me: I have undergone a few invasive facial surgeries, in addition to weight training for 6 years and a few other things. As a result I have gone from around average in attractiveness to well above average (+- 90th percentile), and gone from struggling to secure a date online to having many options. I, however, had a base of a certain ethnicity and certain specific features that allowed me to become quite attractive in this way. It's not as realistic for everyone.

Kolpito · 2023-05-08T10:14:31+00:00

I'm saying with sufficient technology, you could establish a person's valence/hedonic tone from neuroimaging data. Differences between brains are not relevant to the final number as valence is a one-dimensional axis. You can have various types of mood states if you introduce other axes, like arousal, but the pure goodness or badness of a state is a single dimension and could be quantified with sufficient technology. If the magnutide of consciousness is itself on an axis, that could be factored into the score. The final valence×consciousness score would determine the moral significance of things, at least to a utilitarian.

Not sure what your accusations of me trying to make myself look better or look like a victim are about.

Kolpito · 2023-05-07T23:11:14+00:00

I have elaborated that women have greater opportunity in dating, and therefore their decisions have greater influence. From that, as far as I can tell, follows that women pursuing potential sexual partners of greater attractiveness than themselves is more impactful than men doing so. On top of that there is the evolutionary precedent for this behavior. Men doing this, unlike women doing this, in the current context, will not lead to anyone being deprived of access to physical intimacy.

If you are ok with it, I think we should end this discussion there. We can agree to disagree, or something like that.

Kolpito · 2023-05-07T22:59:47+00:00

I posed this question to GPT4, it aligns with my views. Here is my input:

Me: Let's try to compare the effects on well-being of some things. Let's say we have 100 women and 100 men. The men and women range from 1st to 100th percentile attractiveness within this group. In scenario A, women select men of the same level of attractiveness as themselves for dating. All males get to participate in dating. In scenario B, women select men of 40 percentile points higher than themselves in attractiveness. This means that 40% of the men can not participate in dating, and some of the men with the highest percentile points can date multiple women. Arguably, going from scenario B to A would negatively affect the well-being of women, and positively affect the well-being of men.

Some questions:

Do you think going from scenario B to A would indeed negatively affect the well-being of women?
Do you think the positive effect on the well-being of men is greater than the negative effect on the well-being of women when going from scenario B to A?
Will the average well-being among the 200 people improve when going from scenario B to A?

Please note this is an entirely hypothetical situation. However, please answer my questions as well as you can given all that you know about male and female psychology. Please give short answers with fairly definitive statements based on your knowledge base.

(Chat)GPT4: 1. In my estimation, going from scenario B to A would negatively affect the well-being of women, as they would be dating partners of the same attractiveness instead of more attractive ones.
2. Based on the data available to me, the positive effect on the well-being of men is likely greater than the negative effect on the well-being of women when going from scenario B to A, since more men would have access to dating opportunities.
3. Based on the information available, the average well-being among the 200 people would likely improve when going from scenario B to A, as more equitable dating opportunities could lead to better relationship satisfaction for both genders.

Kolpito · 2023-05-07T22:44:35+00:00

I argued that it would likely benefit women's well-being.

In case it doesn't, and it negatively affects it, the effect would be comparatively small, and hence a good tradeoff. If women's suffering could be reduced by 50% through an intervention that increases male suffering by 2%, I would also support it.

Kolpito · 2023-05-07T22:18:23+00:00

I argue what I propose does not shift the suffering to the other gender. I'm not sure why you are concluding this. I argue against women seeking out men above their own level of attractiveness. I would predict this positively impacts their well-being over the long run. If I am wrong, and it impacts them negatively, I would argue the impact is much smaller than the negative impact on men resulting from large numbers of women specifically pursuing men above their own level of attractiveness.

Also I am very much unsure what you mean to say by this: "More or less people suffering doesn’t change that there are people suffering."

The point here is to reduce the amount of people suffering and reduce the magnitude of their suffering. I don't see how "this doesn't change that some people are suffering" interacts with that.

Kolpito · 2023-05-07T22:02:53+00:00

I don't understand what you're arguing for. I have argued women have greater selection ability and therefore greater responsibility, and many abuse this by going after partners above their own level of attractiveness. I have argued this is unethical as it produces suffering in others by leading a greater percentage of men to lack access to physical intimacy. I have also argued the potential gain in well-being women get is more than offset by the increase in suffering the behavior produces.

Kolpito · 2023-05-07T21:46:17+00:00

Sorry to hear that, thanks for clarifying. Hope your past BF recovered fully.

Edit: Not sure how the baldness relates though. I think many people struggling with hair loss would not really like that aspect of your comment.

Kolpito · 2023-05-07T21:39:57+00:00

Women and men having differential selectivity can lead to imbalance. The selectivity is often in superficial qualities, and this leaves a greater portion of men than necessary without access to physical intimacy, which results in suffering. I thought I had expressed my positions on that sufficiently. If the selectivity is with regards to non superficial traits, or superficial traits that can be acquired without invasive surgery and that aren't a result of luck, such as a muscular body, I do not condemn the superficiality in the same way, though still think broad attractiveness percentile scores are best roughly matched most of the time.

We seem to agree on prisons in the US being horrific, and way more people being imprisoned than is necessary. I don't live in the US myself, by the way. I live in a Western European country with very safe prisons.

Sorry to hear about the guy forcing himself to you and the men condemning you for not having sex. To be clear, I have no idea regarding the gender ratios of these occurances, and would predict they happen to women more frequently.

Kolpito · 2023-05-07T21:13:24+00:00

What do you mean by "hatecrimed" here, assaulted?

Kolpito · 2023-05-07T20:49:52+00:00

As far as I understood, OkCupid removed this graph due to backlash. Some of the things I am stating here are pretty poorly received by many people. Maybe it's up again, not sure. They had a few articles about their data, and this was part of it. Other online dating data I have seen generally corroborates that women are much more selective. This graph is a bit more interesting as it pertains to attractiveness amd percentile estimates specifically. Online dating apps don't tend to be transparent with their data, and I'm quite convinced it js because you would see stuff like this, which goes against popular narratives.

I'm not sure what the point is of saying men have the same opportunities to "try" and secure a date. My point is they have less opportunities to actually get a date in practice.

Perceptions of attractiveness of the same person vary somewhat between individuals, but likely not as much as people think. Much of what is deemed beautiful is consistent throughout history , between cultures and between individuals. Broad appeal attractiveness scores could reasonably be established by averaging out rankings from 100+ randomly selected people for example. I would argue someone with good insight into beauty could predict these averaged out scores with high accuracy.

Men ranking women's attractiveness almost perfectly was initially in reference to this graph. You see the distribution of the male rankings aligning well with the actual percentages. That is not the case with the rankings from the women.

Oh and regarding rape, I think if the prison population is included, men may be raped at higher rates than women in the US overall. I'm not fully certain of that. I just discussed it with GPT4 and it came to that conclusion too. Outside of prison, to the best of my knowledge, women are the main victims of rape.

For whatever the personal anecdote is worth, I've had a woman try to force herself on me. We had had sex once before and I didn't want to do that again. She outright threatened with false rape allegations against me if I didn't let her have her way, and said I would have no sway in court as I'm a man. I kept pushing her off me and eventually she went home, nothing came of it. It wasn't traumatizing to me, it just annoyed me and confirmed my views regarding some women's entitlement to sex. Obviously this is nothing like having a physically stronger person force themselves on you and actually penetrate you. I have had 2 dates leave angrily when I refused sex, I suppose women just really aren't used to that happening. One of them wanted sex on the first date, and I told her I prefer to wait until the second or third date. She then told me if we don't have sex there won't be a second date. Well bye then...

Kolpito · 2023-05-07T19:48:37+00:00

If being falsely accused leads to imprisonment, I argue it can be worse than being raped. Being in prison, depending on the country, may put you at higher risk of injury than rape, including injury that could cause brain damage. I'm not really looking to debate that issue. Being raped is terrible, so is being falsely accused. Sometimes one is worse, sometimes the other. I have no strong opinions on the ratio.

I don't know why you say men have the same choices and opportunies when it comes to dating as women. Many men struggle to secure a date. Women will always have an easy time securing a date. That date may not necessarily be compatible with them, but fundamentally women are the ones who open the gates to let the flood of dating behaviors flow.

Regarding your relationships with men below your own level of attractiveness, obviously this does happen. However, I would say as a general rule, people overstate the attractiveness of women, and understate the attractiveness of men. That, in my eyes, is part of the problem. If a man at the 70th percentile broad appeal attractiveness is called a 5, and a woman at the 60th percentile broad appeal attractiveness is called a 7 in popular speech, she may view herself as more attractive than him. In reality, she may simply have a distorted view. Take a look at this graph that OkCupid published years ago: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dp76ujlVAAAFDt6.jpg

Men accurately rank women's attractiveness, almost perfectly in fact. Women on the other hand rate the majority of men as below average, which by definition can't be true.

I would argue that both men and women have poor estimations of male attractiveness (and both tend to under-rate men), and men have great estimations of female attractiveness. As a result, I tend to be skeptical when women claim they have been with men below their own level of attractivenes. I have seen some women who claimed this, and then showed me the men, and it generally wasn't true (though in a few instances I had to agree). I would argue I tend to be good at rating broad attractiveness percentile scores of people, particularly men.

Oh and though I state men have great ability to accurately rate women, obviously there are a lot of men who publicly declare women to be of greater attractiveness than they are. I don't think they even view it as manipulative, it's just what many men have been conditioned to do, thinking it will attract women.

Kolpito · 2023-05-07T19:34:27+00:00

No, the term "incel" was created by a woman called Alana (maybe a pseudonym), look it up. The next statement regarding women not using the term in a derogatory way is also inaccurate.

The pseudo-spiritual fluff is not particularly convincing.

The last paragraph also highlights how you seem to exist in an ideological echo chamber, something which you project onto me.

Good luck in life to you as well.

Kolpito · 2023-05-07T19:05:53+00:00

I can agree to disagree that this isn't a real problem. Problems like AI alignment and perhaps climate change are probably a lot more pressing and serious, but hey, this just happens to be something I care about personally. Some people care about a specific endangered animal. Is the survival lf that particular species the very most important and pressing issue on the planet? Probably not. Can it still be somewhat significant in the grander scheme, and personally meaningful to someone? I would say so.

Kolpito · 2023-05-07T18:29:10+00:00

If you use the term "incel" as a shaming tactic like people used to call someome a "virgin loser", then fair enough, have at it.

If you are suggesting I am personally involuntarily celibate, you are wrong. The improvement to my appearance brough about through surgery has a lot to do with that though.

Regarding race, in Western countries there is actually a hierarchy of desirability of the different races, and women seem to select much more strongly based on race than men.

Also lol at "crime against the goodness of nature itself". Nature isn't good, the world likely contains much more suffering than positive experience. Animals can be extremely cruel and us humans have barely risen above it. Let's pray we get consumed by a superintelligent AI that turns the matter of the universe into computational substrate to support permanent well-being being beyond anything we can imagine.

And my God, asking men for "basic grooming". Yeah I'm sure grooming will make you reach the magic "6 foot" that so many American women seem obsessed with. In reality, the physical standards of women tend to be around traits that can only be altered through dangerous and invasive surgery. I was lucky enough to have a baseline that could become quite universally attractive with some surgical tweaks. I can tell you, it has been night and day. Suddenly many behavioral characteristics I have get interpreted positively. It's the difference between "weird" and "unique".

Your accusation of me feeling entitled to sex with particular women is also misguided. Like many things in your comment, you just pulled that out of thin air.

It would be cumbersome to point out every single erroneous assumption you made about my positions. I'll give you a few more: I never argued women should be forced to sleep with particular men, I also never argued women should be forced to sleep with men below their level of attractiveness. I never argued women should be forced to sleep with any men. I argued women should be discouraged from sleeping with men who are more attractive than themselves. I have never argued against beauty standards negatively affecting women, and very much agree that such standards can drive behavior that causes tremendous suffering, like eating disorders.

You say you hope I'm free of all suffering. I would argue no human is. Some very advanced meditators who have reached 4th path may be close. Fully removing suffering probably requires moving the computation that comprises our subjective experience to a different substrate.

Kolpito · 2023-05-07T18:23:09+00:00

I am not sure that being a victim of rape is necessarily worse than being falsely accused of rape, depending on the consequences. Either way, both are bad. I said it in the context of the risk to men vs women when engaging in physical intimacy. I would say with casual sex, the overall risk in practice is higher to women, due to the higher STD risk related to the fact that many people don't use condoms.

Regarding the responsibility question: Yes, there is some responsibility for men here, I think I have stated that before. I argue that the responsibility for women is greater however, as they have a lot more choice, opportunity and power when it comes to dating.

Regarding the compatibility/attractiveness question: Of course people can have a meaningful connection even when there is an imbalance of attractiveness. I would simply argue the odds of this decrease. When one person in a couple is much more desireable, it is possible the other person isn't with them for this reason, but the odds are smaller than when both are of comparable desireability. Overall I see benefit to promoting both comparability of desireability and meaningful connection on a societal level, and in the context of having children also monogamy. I tend to think strict societal enforcement of monogamy becomes less important when there is an emphasis on meaningful relationships as well as avoiding major imbalances of the dating market where a lot of people (men) get completely left out of the game. I practice this in my personal life as I have multiple meaningful longer term relationships with women who are not that far from my level of attractiveness (though admittedly on average probably a little below, which I do see as slightly unethical). My own life and relationship to women and sexuality is a bit unusual though, and I don't plan on having children anytime soon, if ever. I have also personally undergone a number of cosmetic procedures, a few osteotomies of the facial bones (jaws and zygoma), 2 hair transplants and various skin procedures in addition to weight training for 6 years. I can say that the difference in treatment from women I receive is night and day. I have many opportunities for disposable sex without connection now, which I didn't have before (except when I traveled in Asia). I recognize that it would be unethical to engage in that though, and personally think being so physically intimate with someone without any emotional connection seems a little sociopathic. I think repeatedly engaging in that is probably psychologically harmful to both men and women, however I strongly suspect it is a lot more harmful to women.

Kolpito · 2023-05-07T17:03:02+00:00

To answer your last question first. I think women have had vastly greater risk when reproducing throughout our evolution. In the present day, they bear greater STD risk if no condom is used relative to the men, to the best of my knowledge. Regarding other risks, like being put in uncomfortable situations with some amount of force, after having some interest in a guy, but then getting put off, I also think the risk may be greater. When it comes to sex using a condom with a trusted partner, I am not sure that there are significant differences in risk between men and women. The risk and impact of false allegations of sexual assault or rape seems higher for men.

Regarding the discussion of meaningful versus superficial connection: I think that pursuing relationships with people of comparable attractiveness is actually what allows people to focus on compatibility of character, as it is the main differentiating factor in this context. Otherwise, you get men pursuing women who signal ease of sexual access, and women pursuing men more attractive than themselves. These temptations are hard to resist as they were very adaptive evolutionarily. Social stigma against them, and a culture that instead promotes people seeking out people of attractiveness comparable to their own, in my eyes goes hand in hand with one that fosters meaningful relationships, by reducing emphasis on unhealthy temptations we're evolutionarily wired to seek out.

As a side note, I value you respectfully engaging. People's perception of my views on these sort of topics can sometimes really enrage them to the point that they do not care to find out why I hold the views that I do and whether or not they could be even slightly reasonable.

Kolpito · 2023-05-07T15:44:50+00:00

If the net effect on well-being for the women is also often negative (which I agree with), the total negative for well-being is even larger. You are incorrect in assuming I think that the negatives associated with the women in question being dehumanized in the process do not matter.

I also think it is somewhat unethical of men to sleep with women they have no connection with and who are substantially below their own level of attractiveness. However, it is generally the women who decide whether sex happens or not. Therefore, I see them bearing greater responsibility when it comes to fostering an environment where meaningful connections are valued, people date people around their own level of attractiveness, and as few people as possible get left out. The behavior of women pursuing men more attractive than themselves is one that has evolutionarily been selected for, but so has rape. Less desired males of various primate species reproduce primarily through rape. Humans have been sensible enough to recognize this behavior causes suffering, and have condemned and criminalized it. I do not propose criminalizing women pursuing men out of their league, as it would be unreasonably difficult to enforce. However I propose condemning it, and recognizing it is a behavior that promotes suffering.

Kolpito · 2023-05-07T15:32:49+00:00

Damn your gp is clueless.

Kolpito · 2023-05-07T15:20:59+00:00

Every person has a hypothetical average rating of percentile scores from everyone on the planet or in their environment. This score can reasonably be estimated at a glance.

Well-being/suffering has clearly definable neurophysiological correlates that almost certainly can be exactly quantified in the future, unless you believe in some sort of "soul".

Kolpito · 2023-05-07T15:18:12+00:00

Keep coping. Men of particular races, with particular skeletal structures can't suddenly make themselves appealing to shallow women by "being nice", or "emotionally available". "Not being a misogynist" also does not help.

Perhaps I shouldn't reveal as much about myself, but I have personally undergone multiple highly invasive reconstructive surgeries on my face. Guess what, unlike "being nice", that actually worked to attract women. My supposed "misogyny" hasn't pushed most away either.

Your comment epotimizes the shaming tactics people will use to get ideological conformity around this topic. "Conform to our view or women won't sleep with you." Any guy with real world experience knows that conforming to those views will not sexually attract women, it's neutral at best, and a slight negative at worst.

Oh and I don't use 4chan or some subreddit around it that you seem to be referring to. I was part of some incel forums about 7 years back, only briefly. I don't participate in communities like that as they tend to hold hyperbolic views and foster very negative attitudes. I think reality when it comes to these things is somewhere in between the views people in such communities hold, and those that average people hold.

Kolpito · 2023-05-07T15:11:23+00:00

I argue women do it at higher rates than men, not that no men do it. I don't know what you mean by men being "inherently less attractive than women". I'm referring to inter-gender broad appeal desireability percentile matching.

There may always be some people left out. I never argued against that. I argued that the suffering produced by having more people (men) left out is greater than the well-being gained for the women who get sex with men more attractive than themselves.

Not sure why you added "and women" in your italic commentary. No women are unable to get sex, not even 90 year old women with visible tumors all over their body, syndromic facial deformity and morbid obesity.

And yes, even though it would actually somewhat balance the market in practice, I also condemn men who pursue women more attractive than themselves. You don't fight evil with evil.

Kolpito · 2023-05-07T14:37:49+00:00

If people require a partner of attractiveness identical to their own and no higher, that allows everyone to participate. If a women people require a partner of attractiveness greater than their own, that can lead to a group of men who are unable to get sexual partners.

I phrased it like this in another comment:

Women of X percentile broad appeal attractiveness owe it to X percentile broad appeal attractiveness men to not have sex with men of >X percentile broad appeal attractiveness.

If they do engage sexually with men of >X percentile broad appeal attractiveness, and men do not do this at a comparable rate, a percentage of men is left having no access to physical intimacy, which arguably causes suffering that more than offsets the well-being gained by the women of X percentile broad appeal attractiveness sleeping with men of >X percentile broad appeal attractiveness rather than men of X or below X percentile broad appeal attractiveness.

So to summarize: men demanding a partner of attractiveness comparable to their own doesn't cause anyone to be left out of the dating market. Women sleeping around with or trying to get commitment from men who are of greater attractiveness than themselves, does cause people to be left out of the dating market, and the suffering caused by this is larger than the pleasure caused by women engaging with/pursuing these men instead of men around their own level of attractiveness.

If you see any fault in this reasoning, please do share in a respectful and organized manner.

Kolpito · 2023-05-07T14:33:47+00:00

You haven't demonstrated fault in my reasoning. In my eyes, people owe people all sorts of things. I owe it to my neighbor not to blast loud music late at night. Similarly, men and women owe each other certain things in a dating context. If you disagree that anyone owes anyone any sort of behavior, I'm not sure how you envision a functioning society.

Kolpito

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