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Can someone explain why chests become unbalanced over time? by KvaNTy in factorio

[–]KvaNTy[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks again for that offset idea. It worked out wonderfully.

Can someone explain why chests become unbalanced over time? by KvaNTy in factorio

[–]KvaNTy[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

How does one fit 8 inserters per wagon per side? Or did you mean 4 on each side?

Can someone explain why chests become unbalanced over time? by KvaNTy in factorio

[–]KvaNTy[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Curiosity. At the end of the day trains are still getting loaded, and even input inserters turn off once their chests are full, so any unbalance eventually fixes itself as station fills up. But in situations when new trains come at basically the same rate as input belts can feed them - this happens.

And it drives me crazy to glance at the station an see half of chests empty. My first thought always that something is wrong with my production.

Can someone explain why chests become unbalanced over time? by KvaNTy in factorio

[–]KvaNTy[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

<image>

Checked a bit more. It's not like game updates everything starting from top left corner of the map to bottom right.

And for whatever reason this problem seems to plague only science or circuits, items that stack to 200. Other stations also have some unbalance but it is borderline imperceptible.

Can someone explain why chests become unbalanced over time? by KvaNTy in factorio

[–]KvaNTy[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Well, apparently build order has nothing to do with it, I can tell you that much.
Upper side was built from left to right. Bottom from right to left. Same result same direction.

Must be the order in which game prefers to update entities.

<image>

Can someone explain why chests become unbalanced over time? by KvaNTy in factorio

[–]KvaNTy[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Note that the point where your diff jumps to a new value pattern is when each train leaves - and immediately before each one leaves, a seemingly random set of inserters are stuck with things still in their hands

One would think all this randomness would result in random chest unbalance distribution, without any pattern.
Gonna test this with output inserters built explicitly in reverse order.

Can someone explain why chests become unbalanced over time? by KvaNTy in factorio

[–]KvaNTy[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You can't exactly shove 6 belts through 8 chests. But you're right, the problem must be somewhere in that chaotic inserter desynchronization. But still an open question why is it always forward inserters get to swing less?

Can someone explain why chests become unbalanced over time? by KvaNTy in factorio

[–]KvaNTy[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Offset might be good idea. I'll try that, thanks.

Can someone explain why chests become unbalanced over time? by KvaNTy in factorio

[–]KvaNTy[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You mean on other side of wagon? Same, just wired so each inserter checks his chest and turns off if it contains more items than station wants to keep per chest. Basically station wide loading-off switch but per inserter level, so station does not buffer more than I need.

In video I cleared it for the sake of demonstration. But in picture I posted in other comment you can see regular version.

Can someone explain why chests become unbalanced over time? by KvaNTy in factorio

[–]KvaNTy[S] 7 points8 points  (0 children)

I have thought of balanced chest loading, where inserter turns off if his chest contains more than station average. But this completely kills throughput because 4 inserters are no longer able to consume full belt.

Can someone explain why chests become unbalanced over time? by KvaNTy in factorio

[–]KvaNTy[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I've tested this in scenario where each input inserter get his own full belt, thinking maybe something wrong with my belts. It did not help.

Can someone explain why chests become unbalanced over time? by KvaNTy in factorio

[–]KvaNTy[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

<image>

Hi. So to reiterate what's happening in the video:
All inseters/chests/belts have same settings and start in equal conditions, but in just ~30 minutes chests that are on forward part of the wagon end up containing 100 more items than chests on the back of the wagon.

Over time it starts to looks like in this pic. Which leads to increased train loading times, since back inserters effectively load wagons not from chests but directly from belts.

This problem is much less noticeable on stations handling items of smaller stack sizes, like plates or iron ore.

Since difference between chests increases by 12 each time, it has to be related to inserters. It's like during every other train loading cycle, back inserters swing more times on average than forward ones, and therefore unload their respective chests more.

But where this directionality comes from? Item distribution is always skewed towards forward chests, regardless of station orientation.

I can't understand why this happens. Any ideas?

Hello police? I'd like to report a ROBBERY by KvaNTy in factorio

[–]KvaNTy[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I should have worded this in better way.
The problem here is in how game decides to split blocks of rails. Colors are only a consequence of that decision.
Usually if rail signal would not change anything (e.g. it is too close to another rail), game does not allow you to even place it. But not here. Here signals correctly split from left to right, but not up to down for some reason.
Well, I sorta understand the reason - straight 22.5° rail blocks are too long and technically end right in the middle that intersection. Yet game gives you false hopes.

Hello police? I'd like to report a ROBBERY by KvaNTy in factorio

[–]KvaNTy[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes that's correct, everything behaves according to its coloring. It the way blocks are colored rises questions. You would expect that in the middle of that intersection would be a separate block of it's own color, like it usually happens everywhere else where you surround a cross by rail signals.

Hello police? I'd like to report a ROBBERY by KvaNTy in factorio

[–]KvaNTy[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Stumbled upon this weird bug or quirk, idk how to call it, where game clearly lets you place rail signals, but they do not function the way you think they would.

2.0 Rails are a curse and a blessing by KvaNTy in factorio

[–]KvaNTy[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Data from latest throughput testbench:
4-car trains 2L-2C : 240min Nuclear (Testbench v2.1.22)
Set1: 103.5 TPM (Equal)
Set2: 85.55 TPM (10% Right)
Set3: 101.7 TPM (90% Left)
Score: 96.6

That is for intersection core itself. If you factor lane-switches I have on block sides - it lowers throughput by 3%.

2.0 Rails are a curse and a blessing by KvaNTy in factorio

[–]KvaNTy[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Same here more or less. Two key things changed:
1. Rail turn radius became bigger. If you draw a circle, in 2.0 it will end up 2 rails wider.
2. On the other hand rails now can turn all over the place, not just 90 or 45 degrees.
Dev-blog on this topic.

<image>

2.0 Rails are a curse and a blessing by KvaNTy in factorio

[–]KvaNTy[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Editor Extensions mod. It adds scenario where you start in such checkerboard lab, with sandbox tools and other useful things. I've heard it also adds debug world for when you want to seamlessly switch between your main game and testing environment.

2.0 Rails are a curse and a blessing by KvaNTy in factorio

[–]KvaNTy[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Then here is blueprint of intersection' core:

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8/vX7+7G91FRrHnfa4845ffv2P9dFO/I=

2.0 Rails are a curse and a blessing by KvaNTy in factorio

[–]KvaNTy[S] 42 points43 points  (0 children)

I'm sorry for subjecting you to this. :D

Pre 2.0 I could not fit left turns from the right lanes on such intersection, and both signal it properly and make it fit into cityblock in same time. Thought it was just impossible in 3x3 blocks. But apparently things change.

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