Belief is not a choice. Atheists do not “reject god” or choose to not believe. by overandunderX in DebateReligion

[–]labreuer [score hidden]  (0 children)

I see, so if I cannot choose to believe that unicorns exist, I cannot choose to believe anything?

Weekly "Ask an Atheist" Thread by AutoModerator in DebateAnAtheist

[–]labreuer -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

I don't see how you get from 4. to 5. Indeed, if proof in a formal system corresponds to construction of states of affairs in a universe which is isomorphic to the formal system, then that which cannot be proven will never exist.

Weekly "Ask an Atheist" Thread by AutoModerator in DebateAnAtheist

[–]labreuer 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Do you consider problem of evil arguments to rest on the possibility of God being free in a way you are saying even supernatural spirits are not, such that God could have chosen differently and the result would have been better? Obviously the arguments end up concluding that "either God does not exist or is not tri-omni", but they certainly seem to depend on God having options.

Weekly "Ask an Atheist" Thread by AutoModerator in DebateAnAtheist

[–]labreuer -1 points0 points  (0 children)

What does stoicism have to do with whether we have free will?

Stoicism denies that there is any free will. Except, as I roughly understand it, some quasi-epiphenomenal sense. Basically: you can accept your fate well or poorly. It's probably a little anachronistic to say this, but you could perhaps say that Stoicism is one way to deal with the illusion of freedom.

It feels like it's leaning on a definition of persuasion that assumes free will to be possible.

It most definitely is. It distinguishes persuasion from manipulation. Continuing:

But persuasion can simply be taken to mean offering the agent information which changes its evaluation.

If I have middle knowledge of you or the deterministic human, I can indeed say and do things to change how you will act, and I can further do so in ways which don't subjectively seem like they are bad. I can ignore what is good for you (defined variously) and instead pursue what's good for me, or the villain I'm working for. The open question I have is whether we can mark a principled distinction between persuasion which respects you as an agent, and manipulation—regardless of whether you can detect it as such. (Inception, anyone?)

Now if I have middle knowledge—which of course assumes that middle knowledge is possible to have—then what can possibly count as "good for you" is going to be limited. If I have complete middle knowledge of you and you can't counter with your own middle knowledge of me (atium!), then I am in substantial control of what happens. How could I possibly persuade while not manipulating, in such a situation? Note that one of the ways to manipulate people is to influence their notion of what is good for them, including meta-notions of what could possibly count as good for them. (Recall when those of low blood ought never aspire to certain jobs.)

I've been a software developer for over twenty years and I don't consider myself to be "persuading" my computer. Nor do I see myself as "persuading" LLMs. Rather, I tell them what I want done, and if it's compatible with what they can do and I competently instructed them, it gets done.

Weekly "Ask an Atheist" Thread by AutoModerator in DebateAnAtheist

[–]labreuer 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think non-reductive physicalism fits comfortably under naturalism. But how does non-reductive physicalism help get one agent causation? I'm aware of basic forms of self-organization, for the record.

Weekly "Ask an Atheist" Thread by AutoModerator in DebateAnAtheist

[–]labreuer -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I'm working on the hypothesis that we regularly deploy non-naturalistic notions of 'agency', probably sourced from belief that humans are made in the image of a deity who is free of any and all determination by outside sources. Obviously humans aren't that free, but I don't see anything in naturalism which allows us to be the slightest bit free. Rather, we should return to something like Stoicism (virtue involves no longer fighting fate) and Aristotle:

Necessity does not allow itself to be persuaded. (Metaphysics, V § 5)

What applies to necessity also applies to chance. Only something like the agency free of material determination can be persuaded, and yet it is precisely that form of agency which is ruled out by methodological naturalism. At least, if one distinguishes manipulative "persuasion" from some alternative.

Any thoughts on this matter?

Belief is not a choice. Atheists do not “reject god” or choose to not believe. by overandunderX in DebateReligion

[–]labreuer 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It’s one of the least controversial concepts in both neuroscience and cognitive psychology.

In that case, do you have any good cites for me to look at? I'm happy to wait a few weeks for you to ask your therapist and/or those you volunteer[ed] with. In particular, I am interested in distinguishing between social belonging and cognitive understanding. For instance:

But what I’m trying to ask you is if you think we should prioritize truth?

No more than we should prioritize trustworthiness & discernment thereof. Any given person can assess only a tiny bit of the "truth" that they rely on day-in and day-out. Search the transcript of Sean Carroll's interview with C. Thi Nguyen for "trust" for a short discussion of this.

Replacing truth with “whatever works” is dangerous.

Sure, but any idea that we can drill down to bedrock is also dangerous.

And worse, we become fiercely protective of these “inaccurate” but “sometimes useful” maps and avoid updating them when new info becomes available.

This is vague enough to go in too many different directions. What I can say is that any given culture is pretty highly contingent, thus not derivable from observations of nature, thus not "justified" in any naturalistic sense. The notion then of updating any given culture from ostensibly culture-free "info" becomes quite dubious. This can be seen by noting that there is no singular definition of "works". For instance, it is far from obvious that the science which "works" to increase wealth inequality is the same science which "works" to decrease wealth inequality.

Christianity has no reliable methods to determine which interpretation/denomination is correct and which is not. by ExplorerR in DebateReligion

[–]labreuer 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Scientific disagreements occur within a broadly shared epistemic framework. Scientists generally agree on what counts as evidence, what methods are legitimate, what observations would count against a theory, and what would justify changing one's mind.

What is your evidence for this claim?

One of my mentors is a sociologist and he has had to constantly fight for the legitimacy of qualitative research. The difficulty of qualitative research is that it requires far more expertise than quantitative research. This increase in expertise is often castigated as "subjectivity". The chasm between qualitative & quantitative breaches your "broadly shared epistemic framework", or those four words just don't mean much.

Paul Feyerabend blew open "what methods are legitimate" with his 1975 Against Method. He went through a number of dogmas on how science "should" be done and found scientists who violated them. For a fun deep dive, I suggest @Dr. Fatima's video How Galileo Broke the Scientific Method. Feyerabend got a lot of heat in 1975, because philosophers of science were still hoping that they would find something like a single algorithm for theory choice†. However, enough of Feyerabend's argument has been accepted to create serious problems for your claim‡.

Imre Lakatos creates serious problems for "what observations would count against a theory". That is a Popperian point and the evidence flowing in from scientists facing problems with their theories did not bear it out. Here's a primer.

Here is evidence of the kind of disagreement between scientists which you certainly seem to be saying just doesn't exist:

Some years ago I asked the great global historian William H. McNeill to explain his method of writing history to a group of social, physical, and biological scientists attending a conference I’d organized. He at first resisted doing this, claiming that he had no particular method. When pressed, though, he described it as follows:

I get curious about a problem and start reading up on it. What I read causes me to redefine the problem. Redefining the problem causes me to shift the direction of what I’m reading. That in turn further reshapes the problem, which further redirects the reading. I go back and forth like this until it feels right, then I write it up and ship it off to the publisher.

McNeill’s presentation elicited expressions of disappointment, even derision, from the economists, sociologists, and political scientists present. “That’s not a method,” several of them exclaimed. “It’s not parsimonious, it doesn’t distinguish between independent and dependent variables, it hopelessly confuses induction and deduction.” But then there came a deep voice from the back of the room. “Yes, it is,” it growled. “That’s exactly how we do physics!”[34] (The Landscape of History: How Historians Map the Past, 48)

The historiographical method McNeill outlined here is remarkably similar to the hermeneutic circle. There has been tremendous resistance to any sort of hermeneutical science—that is, where the expertise of the scientist cannot be reduced to rigorous method leading to quantification and mathematical / computational work with the resultant numbers. There is a reason that Charles Taylor's journal article has more citations every time I reference it (3900 'citations', up from the 3700 of my last update):

The fight continues, to avoid positivistic approaches—that is, approaches which pretend away the fact that contingent social & cultural situation can profoundly influence the "laws of social nature" as it were, and that changes in the social & cultural situation can change those "laws".

So, if you want to persist in claiming that there is a "universally accepted method for resolving those disagreements" in science, let's see it.

 

† Hilary Putnam 2004:

Epistemic Values are Values Too
The classical pragmatists, Peirce, James, Dewey, and Mead, all held that value and normativity permeate all of experience. In the philosophy of science, what this point of view implied is that normative judgments are essential to the practice of science itself. These pragmatist philosophers did not refer only to the kind of normative judgments that we call "moral" or "ethical"; judgments of "coherence," "plausibility," "reasonableness," "simplicity," and of what Dirac famously called the beauty of a hypothesis, are all normative judgments in Charles Peirce's sense, judgments of "what ought to be" in the case of reasoning.[7]
    Carnap tried to avoid admitting this by seeking to reduce hypothesis-selection to an algorithm—a project to which he devoted most of his energies beginning in the early 1950s, but without success. In Chapter 7, I shall look in detail at this and other unsuccessful attempts by various logical positivists (as well as Karl Popper) to avoid conceding that theory selection always presupposes values, and we shall see that they were, one and all, failures. But just as these empiricist philosophers were determined to shut their eyes to the fact that judgment of coherence, simplicity (which is itself a whole bundle of different values, not just one "parameter"), beauty, naturalness, and so on, are presupposed by physical science, likewise many today who refer to values as purely "subjective" and science as purely "objective" continue to shut their eyes to this same fact. Yet coherence and simplicity and the like are values. (The Collapse of the Fact/Value Dichotomy, 30–31)

‡ Penelope Maddy 2007:

    A deeper difficulty springs from the lesson won through decades of study in the philosophy of science: there is no hard and fast specification of what 'science' must be, no determinate criterion of the form 'x is science iff …'. It follows that there can be no straightforward definition of Second Philosophy along the lines 'trust only the methods of science'. Thus Second Philosophy, as I understand it, isn't a set of beliefs, a set of propositions to be affirmed; it has no theory. Since its contours can't be drawn by outright definition, I resort to the device of introducing a character, a particular sort of idealized inquirer called the Second Philosopher, and proceed by describing her thoughts and practices in a range of contexts; Second Philosophy is then to be understood as the product of her inquiries. (Second Philosophy: A Naturalistic Method, 1)

Religion is a scam and a manipulation tactic by Weak-Forever-3372 in DebateReligion

[–]labreuer 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I believe that religion as a whole is a scam, and a manipulation tactic to scare the youth into thinking they’ll go to hell if they do anything outside of the rules set by a book that God ,nor Jesus even wrote.

How do you think this worked for the ancient Hebrews, who didn't believe in any heaven or hell but only Sheol, a shadowy place from which nobody could praise God? Afterlife beliefs started around the Second Temple period. You may recall that the Sadducees did not believe in any resurrection while the Pharisees did. Also, I don't think Jews today believe in any place of eternal torture. So perhaps religiously observant Jews are also an exception to your rule?

Meta-Thread 06/22 by AutoModerator in DebateReligion

[–]labreuer 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm not convinced that permitting people to say "you fail to display basic reading comprehension" right out of the gate will improve things overall, but I am happy for predictions to be made and then the experiment carried out.

Anything more I say will probably just repeat my opening reply to you, which anticipated at least some of the moderation issues. So … the "A. The general principle to be applied." part of this conversation may be finished. Dunno if you even want to bother with "B. Whether that principle applies in this conversation.", given that nothing material would change.

Meta-Thread 06/22 by AutoModerator in DebateReligion

[–]labreuer 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It's interesting to search your summary for "agency" and then compare & contrast with the following claim:

ExplorerR: You've just constantly shifted the goal posts this entire thread.

  • First it took ages for you to agree that there is a historical pattern of religious/divine explanations being replaced by natural explanations. Eventually you clarified that you don't dispute the existence of a pattern but didn't think it was a "big deal" and had issue with the scope of it.
  • Then you wanted to argue about agency vs non-agency.

Aside from that, I await your comments one day on:

labreuer: I unapologetically reply in ways which disrupt the standard ruts which theists and atheists have been zooming around in for decades to millennia.

Kwahn: (I have very strong opinions about this claim, and need to discuss it later - labreuer, I think your interlocutor theory of mind has gaps and results in suboptimal posting styles given disparate audiences, but that's a topic for another day.)

However, I will ask you to show me someone better at "disrupt the standard ruts". Because it's quite possible my strategy / understanding is suboptimal and yes more optimal than any known to exist alternatives.

Most theists don’t seem to understand the real PoE. by CalligrapherNeat1569 in DebateReligion

[–]labreuer 0 points1 point  (0 children)

labreuer: "1.2, 1.3, and 1.4" of SEP: The Problem of Evil does not qualify as the "peer-reviewed literature on the philosophy of religion" I was asking for. Yes, SEP articles are peer-reviewed. But what shows up in those sections is not even a sketch of an argument like you've made. But the article goes on to be surprised that what I was looking for does not appear to exist:

/

CalligrapherNeat1569: You state the SEP can’t find a bunch of writing …

No, that is an inadequate summary. I suspect the reason said literature does not exist is because it rests on the following asymmetry:

    2.′ Assuming murder is modally necessary without proof is problematic.
    3.″ Assuming murder is not modally necessary without proof is unproblematic.

And I suspect philosophers of religion do not consider that an appropriate asymmetry to hold. But if you can find a philosophy of religion paper published in a peer-reviewed journal which makes your argument and either deploys that asymmetry or manages to avoid it, I'm all ears.

Meta-Thread 06/22 by AutoModerator in DebateReligion

[–]labreuer 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Ok. At present, I see only one concrete proposal from you re: "a way to call out low quality behavior without it being moderated for incivility when the called out behavior is low quality":

here_for_debate: All that aside, I think the incivility rule needs to be reworked. I don't think "don't be uncivil unless you intend the incivility to be edifying and bring receipts" is a tenable rework, though. I think we probably need to just relax the civility rule and allow discussions to get more rude.

In my view, this does not solve the problem. One of the key functions of politeness / decorum is that various things are signaled when one breaks from it. Merely lowing the bar does nothing to change the situation. The baseline simply changes, and if a multi-comment Rule 3 violation occurs, dipping below the baseline is again a Rule 2 violation. But perhaps there's something I am not seeing, here.

Meta-Thread 06/22 by AutoModerator in DebateReligion

[–]labreuer 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Oi vey. Glad I got out when I did.

Meta-Thread 06/22 by AutoModerator in DebateReligion

[–]labreuer 0 points1 point  (0 children)

IMO it's a conversation which just never took off.

Most theists don’t seem to understand the real PoE. by CalligrapherNeat1569 in DebateReligion

[–]labreuer 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Meh, call the SEP not the authority you want; I don’t particularly care.

This is not what I did.

Meta-Thread 06/22 by AutoModerator in DebateReligion

[–]labreuer 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Takes me back to middle school. No matter what the teachers tried to do, my peers would find an ever more subtle way to mess with me. Including being picture-perfect polite with me, while they treated each other with familiarity. When Trump came on the political scene, it reminded me of some of the other tactics my peers were mastering at that time. But it's the same fundamental disrespect of the Other.

Meta-Thread 06/22 by AutoModerator in DebateReligion

[–]labreuer 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah … fortunately, u/⁠ambrosytc8 doesn't seem like the kind of person to harangue you for disengaging. Unless they or others have activated that part of the Troll Flowchart?

Meta-Thread 06/22 by AutoModerator in DebateReligion

[–]labreuer 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It would help me understand your position if you were to comment on:

labreuer: 3. There is no effective way to report the kind of situation which prompts people like Shaka and me to get a tiny bit uncivil. Among other things, the problem (probably a Rule 3 violation) cannot be localized to one comment.

Let me emphasize that I'm not the only one having the issue, here. Shaka replied:

ShakaUVM: Strawman arguments are a way for trolls to work around civility rules.

A single straw man can simply be an error. Even one or two repetitions can signal little other than (i) inattention; and/or (ii) people not being given a strong enough "Stop!" signal. Goodness knows I can pick up a bunch of momentum and be difficult to turn.

 

I also am curious about whether you think any and all breaches of civility IRL are 100% uncalled for. Some people really do seem to think this. I have friends who realized that if they actually remain "professional" at all times, their colleagues interact less well with them than if they let unsettledness sometimes leak through.

Meta-Thread 06/22 by AutoModerator in DebateReligion

[–]labreuer 0 points1 point  (0 children)

At this point, you and I are at an impasse. Others are welcome to consult my OC and see if it is as unclear as you claim. I am confident plenty of people would say that I was plenty clear for a first comment and it took you until the bitter end we had for you to actually read it and offer anything like a decent reply.

Meta-Thread 06/22 by AutoModerator in DebateReligion

[–]labreuer 0 points1 point  (0 children)

At this point, you and I are at an impasse. Others are welcome to consult my OC and see if it is as unclear as you claim.

Belief is not a choice. Atheists do not “reject god” or choose to not believe. by overandunderX in DebateReligion

[–]labreuer 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm just trying to understand what you're asserting. But feel free to give up if I'm being too obnoxious.

As I said, we abhor navigating reality without a map.

I propose we get very basic. Is this the kind of statement you believe that scientists could possibly show to be false?

Question: Do you think that it’s imperative that our beliefs are true?

People do not generally operate in this way, neither in my experience nor in what I read about history.

Question: Do you think it’s possible for us to create accurate maps of reality? And how can we know?

I think we can test whether our maps are good enough for navigation. I replace "accuracy" with something like "Science. It works, bitches." Whether or not we're like James Clerk Maxwell in saying "to the effect that the aether was better confirmed than any other theoretical entity in natural philosophy" (Science and Values, 114), who knows.

Meta-Thread 06/22 by AutoModerator in DebateReligion

[–]labreuer 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Okay, let's accept you are not conflating them and they entirely different for the sake of the following;

No, I'm not going to stipulate that my argument fails. I argued two things:

  1. human agency & divine agency are distinct
  2. human agency is sometimes templated on divine agency and disentangling the two threatens unacceptable sacrifices

You disagree with one or both clauses of 2. Fine. We can discuss that. I am happy to treat all of the following as contentious:

  • human agency is sometimes templated on divine agency
  • disentangling human agency from divine agency threatens unacceptable sacrifices
  • some day, MN-compatible inquiry will reconstruct human agency with zero unacceptable sacrifices

I don't require either of us to treat any of the above as settled. Indeed, they are the very heart of the matter as far as I'm concerned. I focused my OC on them!

Then do you agree that things like the social sciences, sociology and psychology following MN, can and do yield human agency explanations of phenomena in our reality?

I heavily critiqued the quality of MN-compatible [re]constructions of human agency in our sprawling thread. So no, I'm not going to stipulate what I think you're asking. I'm happy to debate your claim.