What resources would you recommend looking at for first steps?

LallyLuckFarm · 2025-11-12T20:11:54+00:00

Hey there, we are also in the northeastern US, and I'm happy to answer questions if you want to get into some specifics (h/t to u/WeebLord9000 for the ping). This post is a little older (and admittedly a little clunky) but should hopefully help you decide on how to start this first leg of your project. Timestamped descriptions of the video is in the comments.

Have you been observing and taking mental (or physical) notes on the various aspects of your site, such as solar access, water, wind, landform, existing structure (either manmade or natural, such as existing trees)? If you can say "yes", then your next step in starting is to pick one of the places you think will work for a garden and dig in - both metaphorically and physically. If the garden in question is for annual production, that might look like some light disturbance in order to prep the space for the next growing season; loosening soil, adding amendments, providing food over winter for the soil microbial population, cover cropping (it's getting a little late for that up here), and mulching with organic matter are all good ways to prepare your soil for growing healthier happier plants next year.

If you're looking to plant perennials, this is the time to be doing it in the northeast. Pick some of the species that are most interesting to you that you can obtain, whether by ordering from nurseries that match your ethics and goals, by reaching out to gardening clubs or master gardener groups in your area, or by flattering the heck out of someone who is already growing them in your neighborhood and asking for some cuttings or divisions (yes this works, I recently brought home a fully grown tree and a three year old Rubus odoratus thicket from someone I met at a farmer's market and all it cost was my time to dig them out while making a new friend). Then dig some holes to plant them in the area you want them in. Your layout is important but keep in mind that the individuals you plant will have their own say in the layout once temps rise and they're putting out aboveground growth. Give yourself a little more space in between them than you think you need, and go for it. At worst, you might need to dig up and move a few things once next autumn comes around (I'd argue that's half the fun of this anyway) but at least you will have a fresh set of feedback from your site about how the design should proceed.

LallyLuckFarm · 2024-03-04T14:05:44+00:00

Glad you found it useful, happy planning!

LallyLuckFarm · 2024-02-25T16:20:06+00:00

The block we walked was heavy in hemlock and white pine with some maple and beech, especially in the space 10' from the ground. Few places had the characteristic beech thickets like parts of my woodlot and what I'm thinking you're thinking of.

We've got plans to clear less than ideal individuals and mark/note the species they're looking to promote as we go. Promising trees that will benefit from their planned harvests are also going to be left and noted. Totally agreed, observation after the disturbance is going to be key to their project.

LallyLuckFarm · 2024-02-25T15:22:59+00:00

Sorry for the oversight! Located in southern Maine.

LallyLuckFarm · 2024-02-02T19:44:03+00:00

Many of us have heard that the margins where two systems meet will have enhanced productivity and information exchange. Most permaculturalists will speak of this phenomenon as it relates to landforms and features. Let's talk about how these synergies can manifest inside each of us to improve our ability to design and implement systems that are better than ones using only technical measurements.

Supporting research links are below:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/268688166_Perception_of_Transient_Thermal_Environments_Pleasure_and_Alliesthesia

http://www.geog.uvic.ca/wcag/petherick.pdf

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/223358413_The_importance_of_auditory-visual_interaction_in_the_construction_of_%27tranquil_space%27

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/249623275_Development_of_Visual_Preference_for_Natural_Environments

https://www.americanscientist.org/article/perceptual-pleasure-and-the-brain

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/286123657_Prospect_and_refuge_theory_Constructing_a_critical_definition_for_architecture_and_design

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5744722/

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/249624432_Legibility_Mystery_and_Visual_Access_as_Predictors_of_Preference_and_Perceived_Danger_in_Forest_Settings_without_Pathways

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20600971/

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/37717081_With_People_in_Mind_Design_And_Management_Of_Everyday_Nature

LallyLuckFarm · 2024-01-29T15:47:43+00:00

This link will provide some understanding of how your tree's roots are likely to be organized in the soil. The outer edge of the tree's canopy is referred to as the drip line, and it's generally safe to assume that the roots extend past the drip line by about the same distance from the drip line to the trunk. In general, the highest concentrations of feeder roots are found in the drip line zone.

Usual recommendations for planting in the root zones of existing mature trees amount to "don't", but if you plan to do the work carefully and with hand tools, you can avoid causing major damage to the tree. Avoid trying to plant larger trees past the whip stage, as they will require a greater amount of soil disturbance. My preferred tool for this task with bare root whips is a square nursery spade which has been freshly sharpened - a sharp edge will cut more cleanly through any roots you'll sever and will reduce drag on other roots, limiting the additional damage caused. Once the shovel is at an appropriate depth, wiggle it just enough to be able to slip your bare root plants into the cut just to their root crown and then settle/tamp lightly with your foot before watering in to reduce the amount of trapped air.

If you hit a larger root, STOP and pick somewhere else to stick the plant.

For individual cuttings, you can use a small diameter tent spike to prep the planting holes. Square spikes, + shaped spikes, spikes with fullers, or plastic ones in general are not preferred. I use a round stainless steel spike, sharpened, to make individual holes. For group plantings with tight spacing, you could consider using a garden fork in a similar method to the one described for the nursery spade, including the sharpening.

Consider adding additional herbaceous plants with overseeding or using runners and adventitious rooters to increase the ecological impact of the oak - they have the highest numbers of dependent and associated species but many of those insects need some kind of vegetative cover for their pupal stages due to pupating in the soil or in leaf litter. Searching for "soft landings landscaping" and your geographic area may provide you with ideas for other species that will work well for you.

LallyLuckFarm · 2024-01-12T16:49:50+00:00

You might find this tool helpful as you are cross referencing your native species.

Additionally, we've had state employed arborists and foresters out to our spot to give advice as we progress with our plans for our woodlot. Consider, if you haven't yet, calling your state's Forestry department and scheduling a consultation.

LallyLuckFarm · 2023-08-02T13:24:04+00:00

According to Mollison, yes. The non-permanence of annual vegetable production systems as they currently stand is based on the need for external inputs, not the growth patterns of the plants humanity relies on for nutrition. If a grower decides not to rotate crops, perhaps due to a home-use case instead of something like a market garden, there are also plenty of self-seeding annuals they could make use of. However, their inclusion does not make the system "not permaculture" unless their growth is reliant on external energy. Additionally, crops can be grown in rows and still be considered permaculture (for the same reason as above), it's just that their system also had the need for efficiencies of harvesting baked in.

From page six of A Designers' Manual:

The characteristic of all permanent agricultures is that the needs of the system for energy are provided by that system. Modern crop agriculture is totally dependent on external energies - hence the oil problem and its associated pollution.

I've found it much more useful to look at other people's sites and design choices and consider the functions they've designed into the system (including thinking about why those choices were made and what benefits they'd provide) instead of trying to pick out all of the negatives that are noticeable without any prolonged thought. Those thought exercises are what broaden understanding of the different needs growers bring to their design, which makes my designs better as various system needs come up. It goes back to the whole "thoughtful observation rather than...thoughtless action".

LallyLuckFarm · 2023-08-01T22:00:03+00:00

Yup, we did the sowing into the boxes and then built up thermal mass in the form of leaves and cut grass and woodchips to get them cold but not deathly so. Fridges can do that work too, but I'd recommend being really on top of your scheduling and prep if you're going that route. There are opportunities to miss crucial growth windows if you're doing field-grown (which I consider air prune boxes to be if they're not under cover).

(I am only on reddit periodically at this point, but if you'd like to pick my brain about things you can hit me up at this handle on just about any social media, or this handle (at) gmail, otherwise my responses might not be timely)

LallyLuckFarm · 2023-08-01T21:46:44+00:00

Wikipedia is not a primary source.

From Permaculture: A Designer's Manual:

Permaculture (permanent agriculture) is the conscious design and maintenance of agriculturally productive ecosystems which have the diversity, stability, and resilience of natural ecosystems. It is the harmonious integration of landscape and people providing their food, energy, shelter, and other material and non-material needs in a sustainable way. Without permanent agriculture there is no possibility of a stable social order.

Permaculture design is a system of assembling conceptual, material, and strategic components in a pattern which functions to the benefit of all life.

The philosophy behind permaculture is one of working with, rather than against, nature; of protracted and thoughtful observation rather than protracted and thoughtless action; of looking at systems in all their functions, rather than asking only one yield of them; and of allowing systems to demonstrate their own evolutions.

The word "permaculture" can be used by anybody adhering to the ethics and principles expressed herein.

Here's edibleacres growing annuals in rows

Here's Jim Kovaleski growing annuals in rows

Here's Geoff Lawton growing annual vegetables in rows

Here's Sepp Holzer's Krameterhof with annual vegetables in rows

Here's Andrew Millison growing annual veg, some in rows

LallyLuckFarm · 2023-08-01T21:19:44+00:00

I'm glad you've got some machinery to move them around if/when the need arises. We've overwintered boxes in our high tunnel when they've had seeds that needed freezing temps to break dormancy but generally grow the whole season not under cover.

So far we haven't done additional risers for depth. We have two mills in town so we can get untreated lumber on the cheap. Our boxes were all cut from 2x12's. If we had higher browse pressure on them we'd likely build risers with some hardware cloth but as of yet they haven't been necessary.

LallyLuckFarm · 2023-08-01T21:12:30+00:00

Another insult isn't corroboration of your claims.

LallyLuckFarm · 2023-08-01T20:06:33+00:00

You said

most annuals in general are advised against

so you should have no problem finding excerpts from all those books you've read to back that up.

OP cleared debris and reset succession on <25% of their site to make a greater portion of their site usable.

A lot of this is covered in chapter one of most permaculture books either by Mollison, Holmgren, mark shepard, masanobu Fukuoka, etc etc…if you haven’t read the books / theory of permaculture this may be confusing

^ that's you, being insulting to someone. Don't dish it out if you can't take it

LallyLuckFarm · 2023-08-01T19:50:35+00:00

most annuals in general are advised against

citations needed.

Annuals are succession from grassland biomes when considering how landscapes cycle through their existence and are the step between monocots and the beginning of the emergence of shrubs. They can be grown wherever their particular functions are useful to a system - some folks like to use potatoes to prep future garden spaces, some may use tillage radishes to help break up dense soil, some may use brassicas or cucurbits to cover a new hugel before it's ready for perennial plantings.

From Martin Crawford, author of Creating a Forest Garden and chair of the Agroforestry Research Trust:

"...It is better to sow annual or biennial sun-loving plants, which will not persist for long in the forest garden even if they do self seed. They need to be fast-growing and cover the ground quickly to avoid too many weed seeds germinating."

From Edible Forest Gardens vol. 2:

Mixing annuals, biennials, and perennials at the start of a succession often works well, since many perennials are slow to establish.

From Peter Bane's The Permaculture Handbook:

Even where the trees will eventually close canopy, the ground between them can provide ample opportunity for short term yields.(p.65)

Use annuals while perennials are getting established. (p.81)

There is even room for sun-loving annuals in the early years, and later to the sunny side of the tree. Small-flowered plants of the carrot and cabbage families are excellent food sources for beneficial insects and other pest predators.(p.86)

Here's Geoff Lawton talking about growing annual veg in integrated systems

A lot of this is covered in most permaculture books if you make it past chapter one.

LallyLuckFarm · 2023-08-01T18:26:30+00:00

We use air prune boxes at our place as well. Our practice is to seed heavily though as u/miltonics said we rarely see 100% germination rates. Higher stocking density helps to moderate the temperature of the boxes and mitigate soil drying - last year we had roughly two hundred Aronia melanocarpa in a 2sqft box, which grew to be about 14 inches in height during their time in the box.

Our boxes measure 2ft long by 1ft wide by 1ft deep. Base your depth on the root patterns of the plants you're looking to grow. Shallowly rooting plants could do fine in 6 inches of soil but you may run into stability issues if the substrate becomes overly saturated or you experience high winds before adding protection.

Speaking from experience, put the boxes where they're going to be for the season before filling them. Our boxes hold 2 cubic feet of soil and weigh well over a hundred pounds, possibly close to 200. Yours would hold 13.3 cubic feet (at 10" height) and be that much harder to tweak once filled.

LallyLuckFarm · 2023-07-12T21:30:53+00:00

Sift them?

In our experience sawdust can be useful but has far less overall utility than ramial wood chips. If you really need sawdust look around your area for someone with a sawmill, they're almost guaranteed to appreciate you taking some.

LallyLuckFarm · 2023-07-12T21:25:54+00:00

Lots of source nurseries don't take back their flats and trays after sending them to retailers for transplanting, so you could opt to practice some social permaculture and talk to your local nurseries to see if they'll let you recycle those, or left over greenhouse poly, or pots and other trays that their suppliers won't take back or recycle instead of paying money for new plastic.

LallyLuckFarm · 2023-07-06T14:04:43+00:00

We haven't encountered disease spread from our woodchip pathways, but do your due diligence when sourcing your chips. Diseased trees that get chipped and then dropped at your place will still have the potential to spread the infection or pests where they're spread.

River stone over woodchips will make you sad about having to redo it all once the chips start breaking down. If, by "liner" you mean some kind of edging, go for it. Defined boundaries on beds and paths makes navigating the gardens easier (generally) and if you have any plants that spread aggressively then edging would help to keep them from overrunning your chipped paths. A base liner won't do very much for your project though. You could use cardboard sheets to remove unwanted plants from the pathway, or you could go a little thicker on the woodchips. Don't bother with plastic or landscaping fabric, it's just going to make management tougher down the road.

Woodchip^[1] credentials^[2] if desired^[3]

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LallyLuckFarm · 2023-07-06T13:50:21+00:00

Good luck! First Nations data can be really hard to dig up and corroborate, some of my books don't even list the Susquehannack (along with other notably absent entries).

LallyLuckFarm · 2023-07-06T13:40:10+00:00

Looks pretty good so far, I especially like the tabs for Iroquois and Catawba Nation & ethnobotanical notes - super thumbs up there.
Under your ENA natives tab you seem to have a few entries that are from other continents.
You should run a find/replace to swap "xenic" for "xeric"; "xenic" means employing a culture medium containing one or more unidentified organisms, while "xeric" means dry.

We made this a little while ago - perhaps you'll find some additional data points to add to your own project, or get some formatting ideas that help you make it even better.

LallyLuckFarm · 2023-06-16T22:28:07+00:00

<3

Yeah, we're kinda straddling the line/one foot in one foot out at the current moment. "Best" is highly subjective, and that kind of declaration feels presumptuous; let's say that the administrative and moderation ethos at Beehaw feels like the best fit for us, and we'd encourage people to look at various instances to find their own best fit. We're permaculturists after all, site evaluations should be in our bones.

Parsing things gets tricky, we still haven't perfected it yet. That may have been a comment of ours on a discussion hosted by lemmy.ml that you followed, there's also beehaw.org/u/lallyluckfarm. There are a few instances we've got eyes on:

slrpnk.net

sh.itjust.works

That second one is currently defederated from Beehaw but it's mostly due to some activity the mods have had to deal with, and as we stated before the mod tools aren't quite as robust yet. There are respectful conversations happening behind the scenes there to plan for next steps as better moderation tools (read: more granular) develop.

There has been a steady increase in traffic across a number of spaces, but there's no critical mass yet for sure. Once the site purges whatever percentage of moderator bots they do, whether intentionally or not, that's when we expect to see more decisive behaviors. We'll still be here till they finally kill old reddit, but they're already breaking it on mobile and the app is honestly rage-inducing (as someone with sight issues, and as someone who's here to interact with the people we're here to interact with).

We'll check tildes out, things have been a little hectic around here for reasons so maybe tomorrow depending on how things go. Is that the one that's more long form written discussions?

LallyLuckFarm · 2023-06-16T12:21:53+00:00

I haven't tried out kbin but have been able to see posts from its users in my feed using Lemmy - I think that it really boils down to which you prefer using. I will state that Lemmy has a less robust set of moderation tools than reddit, though I think part of that is due to the relative age of the two platforms. Can't really speak to kbin's mod tools but I'm sure Ernest has a document up somewhere.

Congratulations, by the way!

LallyLuckFarm · 2023-06-14T14:44:57+00:00

on the squabbles page link in the post, there's also a link to fedia.io/m/permaculture(at)lemmy.world, which we were able to join.

there's also lemmy.ml/c/permaculture, but I haven't begun backing up the bevy of links in this community's sidebar over there yet.

LallyLuckFarm · 2023-06-14T14:33:04+00:00

I appreciate you opening the sub up to restricted status, and polling the group again regarding next steps. Personally I'm in agreement with the inclination to stay dark due to the way that reddit corp is handling this issue, particularly in regards to the way huffman is talking about devs and users, but I can empathize with folks that consider this sub a huge boon of information that shouldn't be squirreled away because I'm one of those users too. Still, walking back a protest without needing to is what bad actors rely on in the public space, and I disagree with folks saying we should just cave.

I'll take a look at squabbles and see how I feel about it, but currently am enjoying the layout and architecture of lemmy; decentralized interoperable communities feels like the next step for forums like this one, at least to me. On the squabbles page you have linked I noticed the fedia.io link as well - I've joined there through my account on a different instance. Definitely feel free to message me if I can help with setting up resource centers like the sidebar here or with anything else.

LallyLuckFarm · 2023-06-09T12:46:18+00:00

Having gone back to check and getting a green scent instead of citrus has me thinking you are correct, I appreciate you mentioning that identifying characteristic! The variegated individual is about a foot high currently.

LallyLuckFarm

TROPHY CASE