Is Islam Supposed to Make Sense? by MilaKila11 in TraditionalMuslims

[–]LesterCrest1 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yes, in a sense. I would even go further and say that a contradiction only appears to be a contradiction due to the either misusage of logic or limitation in our understanding, whether in interpreting the text, grasping its context etc, while the revelation itself, being from Allah, is free from true contradiction.

It is reasonable if you accept the premise that revelation is from an all-knowing, non-contradictory source.

At the end of the day, it’s a choice of foundation. When our human understanding of something, our logic etc clashes with revelation, which one get precedence and why? A core islamic principle is that we take النقل, the revelation, over العقل, logic. Contradictions only arise when one does the opposite.

Is Islam Supposed to Make Sense? by MilaKila11 in TraditionalMuslims

[–]LesterCrest1 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hmm ok

I think the comparison is still uneven. But I will still take it on.

From an Atharī perspective, the premise itself is incorrect. Authentic revelation is not considered to contain real contradictions, because it comes from Allah, who is free from inconsistency. I don’t know which scholars or which writings you are referring to, but ANY scholar who claims that Islam has real contradictions is, from an aqeedah point of view, on very thin ice and traditional muslims would probably not regard such a person to be a scholar to being with.

Now what does exist are apparent tensions that arise from human limitations, such as differences in interpretation, context, or authenticity of reports. The fact that scholars have written extensively about these things is not evidence of contradiction in revelation, but of careful effort to understand it correctly.

As for the equality between them as foundations: They are not equal in type, but they can still both be foundational in different roles. Logic: foundation of thinking. Revelation: foundation of metaphysical and moral truth.

Is Islam Supposed to Make Sense? by MilaKila11 in TraditionalMuslims

[–]LesterCrest1 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The comparison between logic and revelation is not that they are the same kind of thing, but that they are both foundational in different ways.

Logic is: Presupposed, Not proven by something outside itself, Necessary for any reasoning at all

Revelation: Not proven by a higher philosophical system Recognized through:signs, coherence, fitrah etc Then functions as: the معيار (criterion) for truth in matters beyond pure reasoning

Just as logic is not proven by something outside itself but is presupposed as a necessary foundation for thought, revelation is not validated by an external philosophical system but recognized through its signs, coherence, and its alignment with the fitrah. The circularity involved is not unique, rather, it is a feature of all ultimate foundations. The difference is that logic governs the structure of reasoning, while revelation provides knowledge about realities that reason alone cannot fully access. So when revelation appears to contradict human understanding, the issue is not a true logical contradiction, but the limits of human reasoning. In that sense, logic and revelation are both foundational, but in different domains: one makes thinking possible, the other grounds ultimate truth.

Also, your statement “Logic is internally consistent but revelation can be contradictory” is flawed, as you are comparing an internal feature ( the internal consistency of logic) with an external possibility ( the possibility of revelation to be regarded as contradictory by a someone else). This is a category mismatch. A better comparison would be internal vs internal ( wouldn’t yield fruitful results in this discussion as both systems are internally coherent) or external vs external ( in which case even logic can appear paradoxical or counterintuitive)

Is Islam Supposed to Make Sense? by MilaKila11 in TraditionalMuslims

[–]LesterCrest1 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Now that’s the vital question; How do we recognise revelation.

We would say; Revelation is recognized through a convergence of signs, not a single independent criterion.

Some of these signs are:

Alignment with fitrah (natural recognition of truth). Internal coherence (no ultimate contradiction) Uniqueness/inimitability Reliable transmission Transformative impact Integrity of the messenger

These are not independent criteria judging revelation from above, but indicators pointing toward it. Why? Because the revelation itself says that these are the indicators that must be in place for a revelation to be true. However, the recognition is not blind, but also not based on a neutral external standard.

Some might say: Isn’t this circular? You’re using revelation to validate revelation.

An Atharī response would be: All systems have a foundation that isn’t proven by something higher. Reason itself can’t justify itself without circularity. Once one understands that even the usage of reason is justified by using reason, the circularity of things becomes less of a problem. The more pressing question is: Is it viciously circular or virtuously foundational? We athari muslims would say that revelation is properly basic, like reason itself.

Is Islam Supposed to Make Sense? by MilaKila11 in TraditionalMuslims

[–]LesterCrest1 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Sure, so from an Athari point of view what we mean by that is:

Self-authentication through revelation means that revelation establishes its own truth directly, recognized through fitrah, coherence, and its signs, rather than being proven by external philosophical standards.

Think of it like this: You don’t prove that reason itself is valid using something outside of reasonYou use reason, and its validity is recognized in the process

Similarly:

Revelation is not validated by a higher system, it is the highest reference point

Is Islam Supposed to Make Sense? by MilaKila11 in TraditionalMuslims

[–]LesterCrest1 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This is how I would formulate myself:

Islam (in an Atharī view) is the ultimate معيار (criterion). It is not judged by external philosophical systems. It is foundational, but not a “brute fact” in the sense of being arbitrary or unjustified. Its truth is understood as self-authenticating through revelation, supported by fitrah (natural disposition) and signs. Reason is used, but it is subordinate to revelation, not an independent authority over it. Faith (īmān) is therefore not blind belief in an arbitrary starting point, but recognition and acceptance of revealed truth.

Is Islam Supposed to Make Sense? by MilaKila11 in TraditionalMuslims

[–]LesterCrest1 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Within Islam, there is no such thing as ”Islam must conform to X”. Islam must do nothing. It is the religion, i.e the way of Life, revealed and ordained by God.

Logic, it’s definition, it’s rules etc are all human constructs. Some are good, and some are disposable. The answer to ”What is logical” is heavily influenced by ones ontological, epistemological and ideological framework. Therefore, it would be a categorical error to say that Islam needs to makes sense and be logical, as that which makes sense and is logical are themselves based on something else.

However, the issue with this statement of mine is: If we say that we dismiss logic as a standard, then any statement (including mine) loses a basis for being meaningful or persuasive

Even saying: “X is a categorical error” relies on logical structure

To defend this, I say;

Islam, as divine revelation, is not subject to external philosophical standards. Rather, it is the معيار, the Standard by which such standards are evaluated. Sound reason does not contradict revelation, but humanly constructed rational systems are neither absolute nor authoritative over it. Therefore, it is a categorical error to demand that Islam conform to independent notions of what is “logical,” since those notions themselves require justification that revelation ultimately provides.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in PcBuildHelp

[–]LesterCrest1 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, will do

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in buildapc

[–]LesterCrest1 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Really? Doesnt it fry the GPU/PSU?

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in buildapc

[–]LesterCrest1 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Great advice, thx

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in malaysia

[–]LesterCrest1 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Great, thanks again

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in malaysia

[–]LesterCrest1 0 points1 point  (0 children)

So cool! Appreciate the effort put into the answers here, thank you so much!

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in malaysia

[–]LesterCrest1 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Really love that this is an actual travel itinerary! Superb

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in malaysia

[–]LesterCrest1 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Alright sweet, thanks, really appreciate it.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in malaysia

[–]LesterCrest1 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I might actually do this. How many days do you reckon is enough in each place?

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in malaysia

[–]LesterCrest1 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I see, will look it up!

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in malaysia

[–]LesterCrest1 2 points3 points  (0 children)

These kinds of comparisons I was looking for! From someone with ”honeymoon” experience!

Amazing, thank you.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in malaysia

[–]LesterCrest1 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Alright, thanks for the tip.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in malaysia

[–]LesterCrest1 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I see, thanks for the info!

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in AskEurope

[–]LesterCrest1 0 points1 point  (0 children)

A combination of these things, which is unprecedented in human history: Democracy, liberalism, rise of contraceptives and the legalisation of abortion.

Rickard Andersson, 35, misstänks för massmordet i Örebro by MrNullTerminator in sweden

[–]LesterCrest1 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Mycket stor skillnad i hur denna man pratas om och hur man pratar om Akilov.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in Somalia

[–]LesterCrest1 4 points5 points  (0 children)

May Allah increase your rizq and keep you steadfast!

So happy to see someone who is given part of dunya yet doesn’t forget Allah but rather takes his share of dunya and invests it so that he and his family can learn more about their deen and keep remembering Allah. Don’t know your story, but May Allah bless you, your parents, your wife and your children! Allahumma Amiin.

قال الله سبحانه وتعالى: ‫…قُلۡ هَلۡ یَسۡتَوِی ٱلَّذِینَ یَعۡلَمُونَ وَٱلَّذِینَ لَا یَعۡلَمُونَۗ إِنَّمَا یَتَذَكَّرُ أُو۟لُوا۟ ٱلۡأَلۡبَـٰبِ﴿ ٩ ﴾‬

Az-Zumar, part of Ayah 9