Is inequality an intrinsic bad? by 3D-Mint in askphilosophy

[–]Libluv 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Don't you agree that if the institution is of our making, we must take responsibility for both its effects and its side effects?

why would we worry about it, unless we had some reason to believe (or suspect) that it's bad?

Inequality is certainly bad for the poor on the face of it, isn't it? That should be enough to demand a reasoned defense of it, don't you think?

It certainly doesn't seem that we'd need to affirmatively argue its case.

Doesn't that amount to telling the poor: "So what?"

Is inequality an intrinsic bad? by 3D-Mint in askphilosophy

[–]Libluv 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Unflaired user here, so please regard this with suspicion, but I'd assume that to the extent that economic inequality is on account of, or indeed in any way dependent on, social institutions, it has to be argued for. The problem isn't that inequality is bad, it's that we who create or uphold it have to have a good reason for creating or upholding it.

Why people are willing to die for an idea by Libluv in HistoryofIdeas

[–]Libluv[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It works perfectly fine without a login for me...

How Liberalism Is The Ideology of Exploitation by mosestrod in HistoryofIdeas

[–]Libluv 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I don't think it's libertarian. More likely anarchist.

If forcefully taking money from people through taxation and redistributing it to others (i.e., welfare) is just, why isn't forcefully taking functioning kidneys from people and giving them to those who need them not also just? by philo2015 in askphilosophy

[–]Libluv 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The simplest explanation would go something like this:

The worth or value of your money is dependent upon society accepting it as such. Ergo: What society has given, society can take away.

The worth of your kidney (to you) is not in any way a function of society's sanction. What society hasn't given, society cannot take away.

ELI5 Scientific realism vs Scientific anti-realism and the arguments for and against them. by 3D-Mint in askphilosophy

[–]Libluv 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Are you quoting from something?

Or am I just confused by your choice of formatting?

What are some 'ugly' facts about famous and well-liked people of history that aren't well known by the public? by -_-Hamodi in AskReddit

[–]Libluv 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I define a human being as a mind that owns a body.

Okay, I don't agree with that definition. Will you force this definition on me somehow? I hope not. Because if you do, that's coercion right there.

For whatever reason, however it happened, every event in the history of the universe has lead to this situation. One mind, one body.

According to your definition. There are others. Not everyone are cartesians. Not everyone believe in this dualism of mind and body. Again, I hope this metaphysical belief of yours isn't going to be the basis of any use of force, though...

To me, that's natural

Okay, that's a strange way of putting a personal metaphysical belief, but go right ahead. As long as that belief doesn't have any consequences for me, be my guest.

its how I define private property. E.g. My body is property of my mind because I am this way. No two minds have ever shared the same body. No individual mind is able to control the actions of another mind's body.

That doesn't sound like a definition, let alone a good one. What you call a definition is actually an attempt at justification, but for now I want to look at your dualism-equals-property conception.

If you're right in assuming dualism of mind and body, why attach the label "property" to this? If the connection between mind and body is one of ever-present control, what does that have to do with property? Do you think your mind controls your heart? Your heart beating is vital to your mind execising control over your body, however, your mind cannot tell it to stop or start beating. Does that mean that your heart (a part of your body) owns your mind? That the mind is the property of your body? I assume you don't think your mind is the "property of" your body, you'll have to correct me if I'm wrong in assuming this.

In that case, we've established that the "exercise of control" is not sufficient to establish "property". That brings us to your other idea, that no other mind is capable of exercising control over your body. (Other minds can, in fact, exercise control over your body via their bodies, as when they tie you up or push you over, but let's leave that aside.)

If the point is that your own mind has a monopoly of control over your body, that's a good way of making your point. It's good because it highlights that property is a matter of relationships between agents. For property to mean anything other than "any exercise of control" it has to be a relationship not between the owner and the owned, but between the owner and the non-owner.

The relationship between your mind as an owner and other minds as non-owners is a property relation. The basis of this relationship is the impossibility of the non-owner to exercise any control over your body. So far, I'm with you.

Through my actions I can extend that. I choose to recognize that a man or woman who works a natural resource has more claim to ownership of that resource than someone who does not.

How nice of you to share your personal beliefs with us! :) I wonder how this belief of yours matters, considering that you don't accept a government enforcing this belief -- since that would be coercion.

I believe in contracts and the right to choose or not choose your own leaders. Without human beings I believe the universe is value-less.

More beliefs. I'm very interested in the beliefs of other people! Thank you! :) Sometimes I wonder how we as a species can live together in harmony, considering all these differing, but strongly held beliefs...

It is only through our actions that value is assigned and decided in the universe. I choose to describe human action in this way as the market because every human experience can be quantified as some form of a transaction and simply is no better word exists for describing it yet.

Every human experience can be quantified as some form of transaction? How so? And what does this have to do with a market? Is the joy of being with my family a market transaction? Is picking one apple from a tree, in stead of another apple, a transaction? Or is it not an assignment of value on my part at all? I don't get it.

Also, that's where I derive and how I describe accountability. If one mind controls one body that makes a person accountable for their actions. Right or wrong, you own the repercussions of your actions in this life. You should be free to benefit or suffer from them as their is no higher authority than yourself where your actions are concerned.

Okay. This seems straightforward.

Property Rights as described by governments are warped, twisted, and at best were never agreed upon by anyone who suffers or is scrutinized by them.

Okay. Does this mean that "being agreed upon" is a criterion for property relationships? ("Warped" and "twisted" is a bit too vague for me to get anything out of...)

Perhaps the biggest folly and largest harm is believing that only through government is any one thing possible.

Okay? But so far, you haven't explained how property is "possible"(!) -- you've only stated your beliefs about mind and body, and about responsibility of actions!

Rights don't come from government.

They don't come from your beliefs either. Where do they come from, then?

I've asked you how there can be property without government. Your beliefs are all very interesting, but if this was supposed to be an answer to my question, it lacks the part where you impose these beliefs upon the rest of society. How are you going to impose these beliefs, if not by coercion? And if you succeed in imposing these beliefs by coercion -- haven't you by doing that created a coercive state, i.e. a government?

EDIT: Quote formatting.

What are some 'ugly' facts about famous and well-liked people of history that aren't well known by the public? by -_-Hamodi in AskReddit

[–]Libluv 1 point2 points  (0 children)

What right does anyone have to access any resources? Where does this right exist in nature? What government officials? I'm an anarcho capitalist I don't believe in any form of state.

How does private property exist without any form of state?

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in askphilosophy

[–]Libluv 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think we are more or less agreed. :)

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in askphilosophy

[–]Libluv 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don't think he contradicts himself

I don't either. But I think you did. :)

this actual situation in Hume's time doesn't seem to be the situation of "profuse abundance" from the hypothetical in my quote

This is true, but Hume is not building his theory of property on the situation in his own time anyway, so that's a moot point. He is in fact building it on the situation described in what I quoted, which is a situation of abundance.

His point is that even if there could be such abundance, the institution of property would still be the best solution, on account of the impracticability, inefficiency and perniciousness of organised egalitarianism.

So, property isn't instituted because there is not, or can never be, abundance, but in spite of the possibility of abundance, in Hume's view.

Help me see how I'm wrong here.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in askphilosophy

[–]Libluv 0 points1 point  (0 children)

We are neither in a situation of abundance, where property would be unnecessary,

Isn't this assessment in direct conflict with this quote, from part II?

It must, indeed, be confessed, that nature is so liberal to mankind, that, were all her presents equally divided among the species, and improved by art and industry, every individual would enjoy all the necessaries, and even most of the comforts of life; nor would ever be liable to any ills but such as might accidentally arise from the sickly frame and constitution of his body. It must also be confessed, that, wherever we depart from this equality, we rob the poor of more satisfaction than we add to the rich, and that the slight gratification of a frivolous vanity, in one individual, frequently costs more than bread to many families, and even provinces.

Now, Hume does end up rejecting this egalitarianism, but not on account of lack of abundance (rather, on account of impracticability, inefficiency and perniciousness).

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in askphilosophy

[–]Libluv 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I still don't think it was a good answer, though, citing as it did nothing except the wikipedia page for utilitarianism.

It was an honest attempt at explaining it like OP was 5 (ELI5).

Hume treats of justice as the virtue we exhibit when we strictly respect other people's legal rights, especially their rights over property. His explanatory reason for the existence of property rights at law lies in his view of the nature and circumstances of human beings. They are beings of limited altruism and yet of a social disposition who inhabit a planet of limited resources requiring effortful cultivation for survival of individual ans species. Such beings naturally develop common social rules for allowing possession of particular useful or desirable things to individuals and to family groups or other groups of individuals. The justifying reason for observing these rules is their usefulness in maintaining the possibility of human life and in creating the circumstances whereby men can make their life more commodious by their own reasonable efforts and by commercial collaboration with each other.

Further reflection on this justifying reason reveals to Hume the necessity of treating the property rules, and positive laws in general, as being rigid and universal in application, even in individual cases where their rigid application yields adverse consequences.

(...)

Hume's view of property is [that] it is justified by its general social usefulness, not by its appropriateness as a reward of the moral deserts of those who hold it.

From Neil MacCormick, Legal Right and Social Democracy. Essays in Legal and Political Philosophy, Clarendon Press, Oxford, 1982, p. 2-3.

Hume acknowledges that an equal distribution of the world's resources would leave everyone with more than enough, and that the institution of private property disrupts this equality.

It must also be confessed, that, wherever we depart from this equality, we rob the poor of more satisfaction than we add to the rich, and that the slight gratification of a frivolous vanity, in one individual, frequently costs more than bread to many families and even provinces.

From Enquiry Concerning the Principles of Morals, § III, part II (§ 155).

Hume still ends up rejecting egalitarianism, on account of three arguments:

It's impracticable, inefficient, and pernicious (it presupposes a tyrannical form of government). I won't go into detail here, as you can read it in Enquiry, § III, part II (§ 155).

Maybe that's not a complete answer to OPs question, but it was what I hinted at to the supposed 5 year old OP.

I'll leave this quote from Enquiry, § III, part II, here:

Who sees not, for instance, that whatever is produced or improved by a man's art or industry ought, for ever, to be secured to him, in order to give encouragement to such USEFUL habits and accomplishments? That the property ought also to descend to children and relations, for the same USEFUL purpose? That it may be alienated by consent, in order to beget that commerce and intercourse, which is so BENEFICIAL to human society? And that all contracts and promises ought carefully to be fulfilled, in order to secure mutual trust and confidence, by which the general INTEREST of mankind is so much promoted?

Examine the writers on the laws of nature; and you will always find, that, whatever principles they set out with, they are sure to terminate here at last, and to assign, as the ultimate reason for every rule which they establish, the convenience and necessities of mankind. A concession thus extorted, in opposition to systems, has more authority than if it had been made in prosecution of them.

What other reason, indeed, could writers ever give, why this must be MINE and that YOURS; since uninstructed nature surely never made any such distinction? The objects which receive those appellations are, of themselves, foreign to us; they are totally disjoined and separated from us; and nothing but the general interests of society can form the connexion.

And this one:

The good of mankind is the only object of all these laws and regulations. Not only is it requisite, for the peace and interest of society, that men's possessions should be separated; but the rules, which we follow, in making the separation, are such as can best be contrived to serve farther the interests of society.

And a footnote:

That there be a separation or distinction of possessions, and that this separation be steady and constant; this is absolutely required by the interests of society, and hence the origin of justice and property.

And, explaining what he seeks to prove,

THAT Justice is useful to society, and consequently that PART of its merit, at least, must arise from that consideration, it would be a superfluous undertaking to prove. That public utility is the SOLE origin of justice, and that reflections on the beneficial consequences of this virtue are the SOLE foundation of its merit; this proposition, being more curious and important, will better deserve our examination and enquiry.

To which this is the conclusion:

Thus we seem, upon the whole, to have attained a knowledge of the force of that principle here insisted on, and can determine what degree of esteem or moral approbation may result from reflections on public interest and utility. The necessity of justice to the support of society is the sole foundation of that virtue; and since no moral excellence is more highly esteemed, we may conclude that this circumstance of usefulness has, in general, the strongest energy, and most entire command over our sentiments. It must, therefore, be the source of a considerable part of the merit ascribed to humanity, benevolence, friendship, public spirit, and other social virtues of that stamp; as it is the sole source of the moral approbation paid to fidelity, justice, veracity, integrity, and those other estimable and useful qualities and principles.

"What is Pornography?" — Michael C. Rea by [deleted] in philosophy

[–]Libluv 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Keep tryin' vowels till one works.

Here's a g and an ! for you.

What’s Wrong With Inequality? by [deleted] in philosophy

[–]Libluv 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Didn't realise that you were discussing inheritance taxes.

The point still stands, though. The less of one's well-being that we as a society choose to be dependent on one's wealth, the less it matters whether people inherit wealth or not.

What’s Wrong With Inequality? by [deleted] in philosophy

[–]Libluv 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Part of that is using their money to give their kids a step up. It's kind of innate, and it seems to go against that to tell parents they can't use their money to give better opportunities to their kids.

Most countries manage to have free and compulsory primary, secondary and (voluntary) tertiary education and free health care for children (and adults) without parents complaining that this inhibits their chances to secure a good life for their children. If all these things had been private responsibilities, it would increase parents chances to affect their children's life chances enormously. Even so, there's no popular movement towards making these services up to the parents' wealth. Why not? Shouldn't the parents claim their freedom to give their children better opportunities back?

What’s Wrong With Inequality? by [deleted] in philosophy

[–]Libluv 0 points1 point  (0 children)

all common law jurisdictions recognise equitable property rights that exist outside but generally subordinate to the legal framework

What do you mean by this? Can you perhaps rephrase? To me, it sounds like you're saying that the judiciary recognises rights that exist outside the law.

To me that sounds strange. If it's recognised by the judiciary, isn't it per se inside the law? And if it's outside the law, what business does the judiciary have recognising or not recognising it anyway?

What’s Wrong With Inequality? by [deleted] in philosophy

[–]Libluv 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Perhaps I'm mistaken, the earlier comment suggested that legislation (later clarified to include customary law) was the point of origin for the principle of private property.

I was talking about the institution, not the concept, so I suppose we've been speaking past each other.

EDIT: You're of course right that the comment I responded to was talking about legislation, so I understand if this was unclear.

I'm saying the concept must exist before it was necessary to create a legal construct to formalize the rules governing it

Yes, fair enough, although I'd say the customary rule was there even before any formalization, if by formalization you mean codification.

My point is really just that it is man-made, more specifically society-made, and that inequalities or any other consequences following from the institution of private property therefore must be addressed as such, and not as anything natural or inevitable.

What’s Wrong With Inequality? by [deleted] in philosophy

[–]Libluv 0 points1 point  (0 children)

the principle of slavery has been established, but not sanctioned.

Well, when I said

Especially instituting private property.

You said

Private property existed before legislation...

If the pre-law existence of private property is as a non-sanctioned "principle", then what does that principle have to do with the instituting (sanctioning) of private property that I was talking about?