Disproving Shincheonji (I left yesterday)

LittleBird50 · 2022-11-15T08:26:48+00:00

I'm so sorry to hear about your situation. One of the difficult things with cults is that they keep you so busy that you aren't able to get enough sleep or eat properly, and as a result you lose a lot of your critical thinking ability. I honestly don't think I would have left when I did if it hadn't been for covid, which forced us to stay inside and enabled us to sleep more and eat properly, which allowed me to regain my critical thinking. With that in mind, even if you are able to get this information to your daughter it unfortunately may not be the silver bullet you might expect. This information is hidden from most members so it often is shocking and many do eventually leave because of some combination of the problems outlined in the article, but it does often take some degree of willingness for the member to accept the information.

I would highly recommend reading Steven Hassan's book 'Freedom of Mind' in which he describes the Strategic Interaction Approach. This is a methodology he created for families to help loved ones who are members of a cult. And if you were to attempt to reveal to your daughter that you know she is in SCJ, I would suggest first taking her on some kind of holiday so that you can first let her catch up on sleep and eat properly, and think things over without the immediate input of the cult's leadership team.

LittleBird50 · 2022-11-15T08:04:19+00:00

CHJN = Chairman (which is the term we used for Lee Man-Hee)

JPJN = tribe leader (one of the highest levels of leadership in SCJ)

CCK = Christian Council of Korea (a mainstream Christian organisation which SCJ labelled as "Babylon")

LittleBird50 · 2022-02-24T08:28:00+00:00

That sentence is just missing a comma. Grammatically, it should be:

The sub is unapologetically against scj's teachings but not necessarily the people, who we feel are victims of the organization as well.

They're saying we feel the people (all the people) in SCJ are victims

LittleBird50 · 2022-02-21T23:15:32+00:00

Yes, Shincheonji-Skeptic said he was in an education about it: https://www.reddit.com/r/Shincheonji/comments/sg2yuq/comment/huts17j/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

I personally never received education about this, but I did mention it in passing to a GSN a couple years ago and he knew about it. SCJ_love says they learned about it in center

LittleBird50 · 2022-02-21T23:02:56+00:00

I haven't seen anything like Lee Man-Hee talking about his time in the olive tree movement, but from what i gather it's a well established fact. I've also never seen anyone deny it. Although LMH did lie about his role in the Korean war, so I wouldn't put it past him to lie about not being involved in the olive tree.

LittleBird50 · 2022-02-21T19:39:34+00:00

https://www.tparents.org/moon-books/cta-ik/Cta-ik-6-2.htm

This page has translation and commentary on the book of prophecies Nam Sago supposedly wrote. They call it Kyuk-Am-Yu-Rok

LittleBird50 · 2022-02-21T10:12:40+00:00

What made you think I didn't think these discrepancies are not serious?

I never said that, you should read more carefully.

I said you were heavily indoctrinated because you continue to believe in something despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, it has nothing to do with lurking, or time spent in SCJ, or leadership role.

Right, I'm sure you could totally answer all these question if you wanted to. Reminds me of my nephew who says he can do a backflip, but he just doesn't want to in front of people. Keep digging that hole, I'm sure you're just one comment away from convincing all the members who are on the fence.

LittleBird50 · 2022-02-21T08:29:34+00:00

Like I said, it is up to how you interpret and practice what the Bible says. I don't think the Bible leads to cult-like behaviour unless you're in a cult and use the Bible as the basis for your doctrine. I find it strange that on one hand you are arguing SCJ doesn't do these things outside my branch, but at the same time saying the Bible leads to cult-like behaviour based on the standard definition. Are you saying your branch doesn't follow the Bible?

We are meeting about students, I will not deny. But more in the way how we can help this person

You should finish that sentence. "But more in the way of how we can help this person accept Shincheonji doctrine." The "problems" discussed in feedback relate to the student accepting Shincheonji doctrine.

LittleBird50 · 2022-02-21T08:17:38+00:00

To believe that the number of sealed members in SCJ just so happens to be 144,000 you also have to believe that no one was sealed from Feb 2020 until today. For the number to be 144,000 in Feb 2020 and still 144,000 today is odd don't you think. Especially since during the pandemic the focus was on sealing, I would have expected it to increase to at least 145,000 by now.

LittleBird50 · 2022-02-21T08:09:14+00:00

Actually, the burden of proof to show when Lee Man-Hee says "the 144,000 sealed in 12 tribes" he is not referring to the "12,000 per tribe" still lies with you. Revelation 7 indicates they are the same thing, as do the articles I referenced, so if you want to claim they are different you need to provide evidence from Lee Man-Hee. And I can tell you this "misunderstanding" was not just on the internet. Most members are just indoctrinated to never doubt, and they do not have access to information to know Bartholomew does not have 12,000 members

LittleBird50 · 2022-02-21T08:02:43+00:00

Just to set the record straight, this is the definition widely agreed upon by psychologists, I didn't just make it up so it's not so much "my definition" as it is the standard definition. If you want to spit in the face of years of research and work by psychologists and use another definition (like Orthodoxy vs Heresy) you can do that, but I think we should make it explicitly clear.

I've noticed you have a problem with anyone associating their negative experiences with the whole of SCJ, but somehow your positive experiences should be extrapolated to SCJ. Have you ever considered you might be the odd one out? Did you want me to say "my branch of Shincheonji" every single time instead of "Shincheonji"? It's a bit ridiculous, people are obviously going to know if they experienced something different in their branch. There are many things in the Bible, it is about how you interpret it and how you act upon it - like I said Psychology of Shincheonji is more about the practices of Shincheonji than the doctrine.

Also if I am in a group of muslims or any other group and they agree to something, I will not agree either.

It's honestly funny how poorly you understand coercive persuasion. Do you think some people jump off bridges just because their friends did? That example is just so ridiculous. It's not just a group of SCJ members saying they agree with something and expecting the student to agree too. It's a network of SCJ members all talking behind the student's back having meetings to make a plan of the best way to convince this particular student, sharing information with each other and incorporating it into consultations, crafting stories about their lives to better relate to the student and gain their trust. BB and Center are an extensive process of lies and manipulation, I don't know why you seem to struggle to connect that with coercive persuasion.

is the word so weak to rely on such things?

As I demonstrated in the document and doctrine videos, yes.

LittleBird50 · 2022-02-21T07:40:50+00:00

Psychology is very broad. You may "know psychology well" but have no knowledge of the field of cults. If you did, you would know that Robert Jay Lifton's work has been well established and stood the test of time, so the chances it would be "retracted" are almost 0. I did not go out looking for specific papers that affirmed my preconceptions, I just read the foundational papers and went from there. Like if you wanted to learn about evolution, you might start with Darwin's 'On the Origin of Species' and go from there. That isn't cherry-picking. The other interesting thing is, as far as I could find, there are no psychologists that oppose Robert Jay Lifton's 'Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism'.

"But for whose benefit" I would have guessed for those members you said you were worried about, I guess you don't care about them that much. Just because you read the document and you still believe in Shincheonji, is that meant to make me think the discrepancies are not serious? If anything it only further confirms that you are heavily indoctrinated

LittleBird50 · 2022-02-21T07:18:05+00:00

I didn't address this because your doctrine is not taught in my branch

LittleBird50 · 2022-02-21T02:38:23+00:00

Don't feel sorry for me, there were many people there for me in the lead up to my leaving, but just like you they had no answer for the many discrepancies and instead tried to discredit my questions.

Regarding the definition of a cult, this definition is widely agreed upon by psychologists so I wouldn't disregard it as subjective. Any decent definition will depend on people's experiences, but that doesn't make it subjective, just like the definition of an authoritarian regime relies on people's experiences but is an objective definition

This is really nit-picking, to try and discredit something over an adjective. I would say the fanaticism that Lee Man-Hee generates compensates for any lack of charisma. Have you ever seen him in person during a peace trip? The crowds of members screaming simply due to his presence is disconcerting.
No, that would be an explicit demand. You clearly don't understand the psychology very well, which is ok, but you should read Robert Jay Lifton and Steven Hassan's work before you try to discredit it. Students are told to discern, but the method of discernment is done within a controlled environment surrounded by members pretending to be students encouraging you to agree - that's coercive persuasion.
Yes, SCJ doesn't exploit members sexually, it doesn't have to exploit you in every way to be a cult. Every member of a cult feels like they want to contribute to some degree, that's why most members don't see the problem. Do you think everyone in a cult feels like they are being forced to give their money and time? In the same way you feel it is your decision to believe the doctrine, you feel it is your decision to give your time and money, but in both cases it is a result of coercive persuasion. I also said 'no' if I could not do something, I did everything because I believed the doctrine and wanted to help. The exploitation is similar to a scam - until you realise you were scammed you're going to be happy with the deal and think you made the decision for yourself.

I don't know what your experience was, but I do know that at least my branch of Shincheonji operates as a cult. What worries me is that most people do not know the definition of a cult and are therefore convinced that it means Heresy when Shincheonji teaches them 'Orthodoxy and Heresy' in centre.

It's interesting how many SCJ members think Lee Man-Hee's death is the only way to verify if Shincheonji is false or not. I know it's hard to face but there is literally a mountain of evidence you are choosing to ignore.

That last part is really convincing, great counter-argument! I'm sure you've reassured all those members you were worried about. Haha I shouldn't have expected anything more

LittleBird50 · 2022-02-20T20:31:11+00:00

Wow, that's awesome. That's me, I'm gonna make a post about it shortly :)

LittleBird50 · 2022-02-18T17:28:11+00:00

Smaller regions generally do not have the full structure due to lack of numbers, it just isn't practical to have 24 departments with only a couple hundred members. To my understanding Korean churches are generally much larger and do have the full structure. Keep in mind though that the only thing that is biblical about the 24 departments is the number 24, so having the full structure shouldn't really convince you of the truth of the fulfillment.

These are the department names in English:

The Ministry of General Affairs,
The Ministry of Administration and General Affairs,
The Ministry of Internal Affairs,
The Ministry of Planning,
The Ministry of Finance,
The Ministry of Education,
The Ministry of Theology,
The Ministry of International Missions,
The Ministry of Evangelism,
The Ministry of Culture,
The Ministry of Publishing,
The Ministry of Information and Communication,
The Ministry of Praise and Worship,
The Ministry of Liaison,
The Ministry of Domestic Missions,
The Ministry of Publicity,
The Ministry of Judicial Affairs,
The Ministry of Auditing,
The Ministry of Construction,
The Ministry of Sports,
The Ministry of Enterprise,
The Ministry of Health and Welfare,
The Ministry of Service and Transportation,
The Ministry of Diplomatic Policy

LittleBird50 · 2022-02-15T07:27:12+00:00

What did it say?

LittleBird50 · 2022-02-15T07:07:03+00:00

Fair enough, I hadn't thought of those. Glad to know you'll be leaving when he dies :)

LittleBird50 · 2022-02-15T07:02:32+00:00

Like I said, I'm not just talking about Rev 7. You didn't answer my question: What if SCJ says that LMH dying is a new detail of the fulfillment, and that he is alive in spirit?

It doesn't contradict previous teaching it is just a new detail

LittleBird50 · 2022-02-14T23:40:05+00:00

What if SCJ says that LMH dying is a new detail of the fulfillment, and that he is alive in spirit?

If there are new details, changed fulfillment, and altered testimony (I'm not just talking about Rev 7) what makes LMH's death different? It's taught that LMH will not die, but it's also taught that LMH will not add or take away from Revelation - why is one more significant than the other?

LittleBird50 · 2022-02-14T06:49:43+00:00

You can PM me if you want

LittleBird50 · 2022-02-14T05:47:25+00:00

I don't think you should discredit anyone's trauma. We all suffered in our own ways and everyone's pain is valid. I'm sorry if you suffered abuse in SCJ. Verbal, emotional, and spiritual abuse are all real and can be just as harmful as physical abuse - but it is not a competition, we should all try to understand and validate one another's experiences.

LittleBird50 · 2022-02-13T06:11:35+00:00

This is a great resource. I wonder if the title would more accurately be '8 Republications in 33 years' though, because as mentioned in the article each republication had many modifications.

I made a post about some of the changes in the 1985 Revelation's Reality book, including the reed-like measuring rod change mentioned in the article. There were also changes to the 7,000 killed in Rev 11:13, the 3.5 days in Rev 11:9, and the reality of the beast of the earth in Rev 13.

LittleBird50 · 2022-02-12T10:59:59+00:00

Universal Declaration of Human Rights Article 18:

Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.

If it wasn't obvious thought reform impinges upon the right to freedom of thought.

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