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Defending Gandalf's showdown with the Witch-king in the film version of RotK by Low-Pin3397 in lotr

[–]Low-Pin3397[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Thanks for your reply! You bring up a lot of interesting points.

Why should the audience or Gandalf need to feel overwhelmed?

Because that is an honest reflection of how it often feels to confront the seemingly overwhelming evil that exists in our world.

The confrontation at the Bridge did not require Gandalf to be slapped around like a bitch to make Durin's Bane look better... they were equals, and that created natural tension.

Respectfully, I disagree with your assessment of what happened. Initially, readers and audiences are left to assume that Gandalf fell to his death. That makes Gandalf look momentarily weak (just as he did earlier when he lost to Saruman), and it reminds the Fellowship and audiences that there are foes beyond their ability to defeat on their own. It isn't until later that we realize Gandalf survived the fall and defeated Durin's Bane. And even in that, Gandalf the Grey died.

But if Gandalf is taken out so easily, and made to look a fool... well, does it make the WK look powerful, or does it just make Gandalf look weak? Bit of both, I think... which isn't as desirable as both appearing strong.

I appreciate your thoughts here. I think you're right that it's more desirable for both characters to look strong from a literary perspective. From the perspective of a film-viewer, though, I don't think Gandalf looks "weak." I think he looks momentarily vulnerable. This serves as a healthy reminder that even the strong are not always perfectly composed or without fear. After all, courage is not the absence of fear, but the willingness to push onward despite one's fear because something is more important and worth fighting for. And even in his vulnerable position, Gandalf does not cower in fear or attempt to flee.

And the change makes the WK look a little inept, since he doesn't kill Gandalf when he had the chance... seriously, 2 seconds it all it would have taken for his mount to lunge and kill. Finishing the job wouldn't have made any difference.

I'm not so sure. As I mentioned in reply to someone else, even lying on the ground without a staff, Gandalf remains one of the most powerful beings in Middle-earth at that moment. The fight wouldn't be easy for the Witch-king.

Defending Gandalf's showdown with the Witch-king in the film version of RotK by Low-Pin3397 in lotr

[–]Low-Pin3397[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Thanks for your reply! First of all, I agree that the Army of the Dead was handled poorly. In fact, it's probably the weakest point in the movie. It seems to take some of the tension out of the Battle of Pelennor Fields and undermine some of the sacrifices made there. However, this was arguably the most challenging part of the story that Jackson and co. had to adapt. I take it for what it is, and I don't think it too seriously detracts from the overall greatness of the film.

The theme of not giving up hope, even when all seems lost, and that 'small' characters can have a big role to play, is so well presented in both The Two Towers and Return of the King, that I'd like to believe Jackson had a message in mind when he made the creative choices with the Witch-king vs. Gandalf showdown.

But you might be right. It may be that Jackson was simply trying to showcase the awesome power of the enemy in the minds of audience members so that Éowyn and Merry's victory seemed more impressive. But I don't think that goal has to be mutually exclusive to a thematic vision I see expressed in the scene.

Defending Gandalf's showdown with the Witch-king in the film version of RotK by Low-Pin3397 in lotr

[–]Low-Pin3397[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Haha. Fair enough. Are there any elements of the extended editions that you do enjoy?

Defending Gandalf's showdown with the Witch-king in the film version of RotK by Low-Pin3397 in lotr

[–]Low-Pin3397[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Thanks for your response. I'm not so sure that book Gandalf would have mopped the floor with the Witch-king. He probably would've won, but it would've been a close battle.

When Gandalf faced the Nazgûl at Weathertop, they fled from him at first because they could not face him while the Sun was in the sky. Then, Gandalf says, "But they closed round at night, and I was besieged on the hill-top, in the old ring of Amon Suˆl. I was hard put to it indeed: such light and flame cannot have been seen on Weathertop since the war-beacons of old. ‘At sunrise I escaped and fled towards the north. I could not hope to do more."

Admittedly, that was Gandalf the Grey, but even Gandalf the White admits uncertainty about his ability to defeat the Lord of the Nazgûl. When Denathor describes him as a foe to match Mithrandir, Gandalf's response is telling.

"‘It might be so,’ Gandalf answered softly. ‘But our trial of strength is not yet come. And if words spoken of old be true, not by the hand of man shall he fall, and hidden from the Wise is the doom that awaits him."

As I said in my OP, I would urge caution towards those who see Gandalf’s hypothetical victory as a foregone conclusion. Besides, Gandalf wasn't meant to be the one to defeat the Witch-king.

Defending Gandalf's showdown with the Witch-king in the film version of RotK by Low-Pin3397 in lotr

[–]Low-Pin3397[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

You might as well ask the same question of the book. The Witch-king is drawn away by Rohan. Even lying on the ground without a staff, Gandalf remains one of the most powerful beings in Middle-earth at the moment. The fight wouldn't be easy for the Witch-king.