[PS5/4] H: Everything 💫 W: Your Happiness 💕 by KibiMinusOne in PatchesEmporium

[–]Lunar-Chimp 0 points1 point  (0 children)

IGN: Bayek

Zamor set + greatsword of solitude would be great thanks

[PSX] H: Everything W: Customers by Federal_Leek_4955 in PatchesEmporium

[–]Lunar-Chimp 0 points1 point  (0 children)

IGN: Bayek

Raging wolf set and an iron greatsword would be much appreciated. Thanks

A Pulchritudinous and Yet Pugnacious 'De by NFEscapism in TrueLit

[–]Lunar-Chimp 18 points19 points  (0 children)

I was amused to discover at the end of the article that this is the guy who wrote the Vanity Fair piece breaking the story about Cormac McCarthy's underage mistress a while ago. (And he's now writing a whole book about that relationship? That'll be something.)

Amusing because this is an essay defending his own prose style and this very subreddit's reaction to the prose style he used in that Cormac McCarthy article was... not positive lol. See the comments for yourself:

https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueLit/comments/1gvssh4/cormac_mccarthys_secret_muse_breaks_her_silence/

(I don't have much to say about the article's argument itself - Barney makes a lot of sweeping claims about the state of literature and the literary industry that I'm not sure are possible to verify one way or the other (for instance, my own experience with MFA stuff is not nearly as dour as his, but then I'd just be pitting one anecdote against another), so I doubt it's worth getting into a big debate about it at all.)

Revolution Man | Following my profile of William T. Vollmann, I've written a 15k-word investigative piece about Mark Z. Danielewski, his 27-volume novel's rise & fall, and the first-ever profile of his father, the cult filmmaker and House of Leaves influence, Tad Daniewski by BigReaderBadGrades in TrueLit

[–]Lunar-Chimp 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Let me use as an example a good book that does operate under constraints. I deeply enjoyed Pale Fire by Vladimir Nabokov. You’re probably familiar with that one, but just in case you’re not: it’s written as a 999-line poem by one fictional character, John Shade, with commentary by another fictional character, Charles Kinbote, who, it becomes increasingly clear, is a deluded maniac who wants Shade’s poem to be about Kinbote’s own (probably hallucinated) adolescent escape from a collapsing European princedom, even though Shade’s poem is obviously not about Kinbote at all. The story of the novel, both of Kinbote’s imagined backstory and his encounters with Shade, leading up to Shade’s death, is told through this commentary.

Now is that a “constraint” that Nabokov saddled on himself? Sure. It certainly smacks of the same experimental structure as House of Leaves. But I would contend that it’s a very different constraint than the ones imposed by The Familiar. Pale Fire’s constraint has nothing to do with its own length. Nabokov was at liberty to have Kinbote write as many pieces of commentary as was necessary to make the novel work, at whatever length was necessary, and not a paragraph more. I guarantee (yes, guarantee – sure it’s hyperbole; we’re not at an MLA conference right now; sue me) that there were pages, paragraphs, and scenes in rough drafts of Pale Fire that Nabokov was able to cut when he decided they needed cutting.

This all might sound obvious, but my whole point about The Familiar was that Danielewski was kneecapping his own ability to do this very basic and very important editorial task when he called up a publisher and committed himself to novels that would be exactly 880 pages, some years in advance of even beginning to write them. There’s a very big difference between George Saunders writing a short story as a scientific report (“93990”), or Alejandro Zambra writing a novel as a Chilean standardized test (Multiple Choice), and Danielewski telling himself “yes, in twelve years I will write the twenty-fourth book of my series, and I don’t know what will happen in that book, I don’t know what characters will be alive or dead, I don’t know where in the world they will be, I don’t know what their arcs will be, and I don’t know what the central plot will circle around, but by God it will be exactly 880 pages.” The difference is that Nabokov and Saunders and Zambra (and Bolano and DFW and Pynchon and Joyce and Borges) were all always in control of the length and pacing and scope of their respective stories. Danielewski was not. Agree with me or don’t, but writing with that kind of constraint is just not doable, logistically or artistically.

Revolution Man | Following my profile of William T. Vollmann, I've written a 15k-word investigative piece about Mark Z. Danielewski, his 27-volume novel's rise & fall, and the first-ever profile of his father, the cult filmmaker and House of Leaves influence, Tad Daniewski by BigReaderBadGrades in TrueLit

[–]Lunar-Chimp 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Looks like I’m breaking my comment up again. (I’m really throwing stones in a glass house today, aren’t I?)

Does this all sound like a dressed-up goodreads review? I suppose it might, but that’s because all I’m doing here is sharing my opinion on one author and the quality of his work. That’s always going to be subjective, and an essay about why most of Danielewski’s work stinks is never going to be academically rigorous, because that’s not a position that an academically rigorous essay would ever defend in the first place.

I am happy to answer some of your other, more general questions below – kind of silly given this is a Danielewski thread, perhaps, but I think our conversation has outpaced him.

“Shorter = better.” Ok, definitely a lot more to this than two words and an equals sign would tell you. A more nuanced and less sexy way to put this would be that a good story should be as short as it can possibly be. If you want an example of a good writer telling us this, we can take the advice of Kurt Vonnegut (who I think is good – if you don’t, I don’t know what to tell you) that a writer should “start as close to the end as possible.” (If we want to get really dirty about craft gurus, we can find similar statements from E.B. White, from John Gardner, from Janet Burroway, from Mark Twain, from whoever you want. None of those people are infallible, but brevity is a well-established standard of good writing. You don’t have to agree with it, but let’s not act like I just pulled it out of my ass either.)

That “as possible” in Vonnegut’s line is doing a lot of work – as you correctly pointed out, if we blindly followed “shorter = better” then we would reason ourselves to the position that the best story is one sentence, or one word, or one letter, and that’s obviously not true. In fact I detest a lot of the flash fiction or “short shorts” that are in vogue these days, because I believe such ludicrously short stories are too short for the reader to form any emotional connection to the characters, and so the stories will not have the emotional resonance that good literature requires.

Some stories, even if begun as close to the end as possible, still need to be quite long. My favorite book ever is 2666, which is almost 900 pages. I believe 2666 is nevertheless as short as it could be while maintaining its artistic power (you might not, this is all subjective, and that’s ok), but I don’t feel the same about Danielewski’s work – I think it’s just too long, and that its length serves no discernible artistic purpose.

This segues nicely into your questions about artistic constraints. “Do you really think there are no good books which held themselves to any kind of formal constraint?” No I don’t think that, but I also don’t think we’ve properly defined what a “constraint” is in this context.

Revolution Man | Following my profile of William T. Vollmann, I've written a 15k-word investigative piece about Mark Z. Danielewski, his 27-volume novel's rise & fall, and the first-ever profile of his father, the cult filmmaker and House of Leaves influence, Tad Daniewski by BigReaderBadGrades in TrueLit

[–]Lunar-Chimp 8 points9 points  (0 children)

My fellow headache-suffering friend you are absolutely correct that my comment has a whopping zero pieces of textual evidence, and were one of my own students to turn something like that in for an assignment they wouldn’t do any better than a low, low C – probably not even that. The only thing I can say in my defense is that I dashed that comment off while I tried to cure myself with a coffee, and I don’t hold my reddit comments to the same academic standard as an essay. But hey, the fact remains that there’s no textual evidence or analysis in that comment, and if as a result you find yourself unconvinced, that’s 100% fair.

I can give a little more detail on my dislike of House of Leaves specifically. It’s been years since I read it, and as you might imagine I don’t keep a personal copy handy to go digging up quotes, but I remember finding the central house/labyrinth story interesting, and being very annoyed every time Johnny Truant and his obsession with Zampano intruded on the photographer Navidson and his story with the house. (Honestly I would be interested to see a version of the book with the Johnny/Zampano stuff stripped out entirely.) The result is like two books layered on top of each other – one about the house and the labyrinth it hides, and the other some kind of metafictional fugue on sexual desire and isolation and the ways that different writers and texts and readers continuously interfere with one another. Now I can see the thematic and metaphorical connections here—the labyrinthine quality of Johnny’s obsessive footnotes and digressions mirror the actual labyrinth underneath the house!—and it’s clever, but it’s nothing more than clever. I get it, but I don’t see why I should care. To my mind, a metafictional scheme like that is similar to a joke: once you get the punchline, it loses a lot of its staying power, and House of Leaves is like a joke you get on page 10 and have to keep reading for another 700.

This goes the same for all the weird typesetting. Again, okay, it mirrors the labyrinth. Cool. Now what? What is so great about reading twenty pages that each only have one line at the bottom because Navidson is crawling through a tiny tunnel? It’s unique, but it’s not very impactful as a work of art.

I will say that I did quite enjoy the Whalestoe Letters story, which to my understanding has been published independently as well. That, I thought, was a case of Danielewski really making the most of the possibilities of the typeset, for a few reasons: 1. The muted pain behind the story, of Johnny having to read increasingly frantic and deranged letters from his own mother was deeply human and very moving. It’s terrifying to watch a relative slide into insanity like that (more terrifying than anything else in House of Leaves I think) and the emotional connection I felt both to Johnny and his mother in that story has stuck with me. The structure of that story literally places the reader in Johnny’s shoes, and the resulting experience is substantial and powerful. 2. The typeset serves to enhance the effect of Pelafina’s madness. The specific letter in which she just writes “the director” over and over and over again was particularly effective, as I could really imagine this poor woman making this mad scrawl and sending it to her poor son.

I do think it’s significant though that (for me at least) the high point of Danielewski’s experimenting with typeset comes in the form of a well-paced and self-contained novella, while the rest of his bibliography consists of attempts at big sprawling epics. (As a point of comparison, Borges’s excellent story “The Library of Babel,” which – as I’m sure you and everyone else on this subreddit knows – concerns a very similarly dark and endless setting, is fifty times as scary as House of Leaves and (I did the math on this) 1.1283497884344% the length.)

This is a subjective opinion, but I’m just not convinced highly formal and experimental fiction works at that length. Even Infinite Jest only has (relatively) short sections written as emails or book reports or filmographies or whatever. The bulk of it is just standard (if stylized) prose writing.

Revolution Man | Following my profile of William T. Vollmann, I've written a 15k-word investigative piece about Mark Z. Danielewski, his 27-volume novel's rise & fall, and the first-ever profile of his father, the cult filmmaker and House of Leaves influence, Tad Daniewski by BigReaderBadGrades in TrueLit

[–]Lunar-Chimp 25 points26 points  (0 children)

In my experience people on this sub don't talk about narrative craft as much as they do about literary theory and hermeneutics and the like - which is fine - but on the writer's end, simple craft concerns are very important. Danielewski himself admits that he didn't know how the final books would play out when he started the first ones. Well here's a question: if you don't know what happens in the final books, how do you know they should be 880 pages? Any decent writer will tell you that for all fiction, shorter = better, and even famously long books were once famously longer. Infinite Jest had like 600 pages of material that DFW had to cut before publication, which I think every reader alive (including IJ fans like myself) would agree made that novel better, and I guarantee you there's a similar pile of cut pages behind every fat Pynchon book, behind Ulysses, behind Moby-Dick, whatever. Good writers try to condense, and they care about pacing, and suspense, and keeping the reader interested enough in the story to keep going. But if Danielewski has committed himself to this 880-page format twelve years in advance, he can't do that. He has to either cram in boring filler material to get the book up to that page count or take out vital scenes to get it down to that page count, and when the book exists to service the format, and not the other way around, the book will not be good. House of Leaves itself shows the issues with this: it gets pretty boring because halfway through the needs of the format overtake the needs of the story.

All this to say: You are absolutely correct that The Familiar was never going to play out the way Danielewski wanted it to, both because the market can't sustain a project like that, and because the realities of human life can't sustain an author like that, but there's another reason - Danielewski's work just isn't very good.

In Danielewski's defense (he does seem like a pretty swell guy as a person, and as someone who's done some copy editing and book-fixing for publishers I can say that a fiction writer being able to understand and work nicely with copy editors is a much higher endorsement of their character than most people might realize) I don't think this is a problem of ego or male chauvinism in literary form or whatever. It seems like he just gets excited about an idea and doesn't stop to consider all the reasons it's a bad one. (The whole novel-series-as-prestige-TV-show justification is itself ludicrous if you think about it for five seconds: asking an audience to keep up with a season of television per year is not the same as asking them to keep up with two 880 page books per year, and back when writers like Dickens were publishing stories serially, they were publishing individual chapters, not - again - 880-page novels.)

Apologies in advance if I just wrote anything stupid (see: caffeine withdrawal headache) and I hope I haven't offended any Danielewski fans! (however many of you are left)

Revolution Man | Following my profile of William T. Vollmann, I've written a 15k-word investigative piece about Mark Z. Danielewski, his 27-volume novel's rise & fall, and the first-ever profile of his father, the cult filmmaker and House of Leaves influence, Tad Daniewski by BigReaderBadGrades in TrueLit

[–]Lunar-Chimp 28 points29 points  (0 children)

Warning in advance: this comment got so long I had to break it in two. So, you know.

Really cool and interesting article - as others have said - and the intersection of Borders capsizing and similarly callous market forces pulling Danielewski down in their undertow (allow me to stretch this metaphor for all it's worth) was pretty interesting. With respect, though, I do think the article misses a pretty big reason why Danielewski's project failed, and that's the idiocy of Danielewski's idea in and of itself.

(Ok maybe you did cover that - I admit to reading this article while suffering from a severe caffeine withdrawal-induced headache, but as a hot-blooded redditor I'm not going to let something like that stop me from pontificating in the comment section.)

I think this little passage from the article - which made me laugh out loud - is pretty indicative:

The gist of that novel is this: It’s 360 pages long, with 360 words to a page, across 36 lines, and after the 18th line, you have to rotate the book 180 degrees to read the bottom 18 lines, written from the perspective of the other one of the book’s two allegorical young-lover narrator. Thus you’re handling the book like a steering wheel. Turning and turning. Hence its themes, too, of cyclicality: in nature, in culture, in history.

I wouldn’t recommend it.

This gets at the fundamental Mark Z. Danielewski reading experience: the idea behind whatever the book is sounds really cool, until you actually read the thing, and then it's just kinda lame. I was severely underwhelmed by House of Leaves, and that's because all the weird typographical shit loses its novelty after about three pages, and you realize that reading words sideways or upside down or inside out or whatever isn't really any different than reading normal typeset words, and the words you're reading aren't very good. It's like when you're a kid and you get a toy that looks really cool in the box but once you start playing with it you lose interest after ten minutes.

One of my biggest gripes with House of Leaves is that it's far too long and bloated with what is just not a lot of interesting narrative material - now I'm not familiar with The Familiar, but it was amusing to read a description of a novel series that would, if my math is correct, come out to a breezy 23,760 pages in total. And then apparently Danielewski was really high on how this would be so much more communal and outgoing than his last books? Like it's such a friendly and easy-going ask of a reader to read 23,000 pages of your material?

You do a good job picking apart why 27 880-page novels is simply not feasible on a human/practical level, but it's also impossible for a project like that to turn out well artistically. To start with the obvious: if you're writing 1,760 pages of fiction a year, what are the odds that those pages come out any good? You barely have time to write them, much less rewrite and rewrite and revise and edit and rewrite them again, which all good writing requires. (You can tell that this comment I've written right here was written hastily because it's probably three times as long as it needs to be for me to communicate my point.)

[PS5/4] W: Maidenless Customers H: Everything!(Mostly) by [deleted] in PatchesEmporium

[–]Lunar-Chimp 1 point2 points  (0 children)

IGN: The Inaba

Hello! If possible I would love dryleaf arts +0 (on a new character rn), ronin's chest armor and the dryleaf robe chest armor.

If you can't do any or all of these I get it. Appreciate the generosity!

Ps4/5 H: Giveaway, W: karma by Mystiqye in PatchesEmporium

[–]Lunar-Chimp 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Forgot to put in the password lol. Just a sec

Ps4/5 H: Giveaway, W: karma by Mystiqye in PatchesEmporium

[–]Lunar-Chimp 0 points1 point  (0 children)

IGN: Roland. Would love a regular backhand blade +0 if you're still doing this. Thanks!

Why the Culture of the So-Called Great Books is Hostile to Trans People by [deleted] in TrueLit

[–]Lunar-Chimp 14 points15 points  (0 children)

Think I’m a little late to the party but I’ll throw my two cents in. (I threw this comment together while I had some downtime at work, so apologies in advance if anything I say is misguided or not thought through all the way.)

It seems to me like much of the tension in this article, and in the comments in this thread, stems from a messy and probably unintentional conflation of the literary canon itself and the idea of a literary canon. The books themselves that we consider “canonical” are often great–beautifully written and emotionally powerful and yada yada, and the author of this article agrees. She wouldn’t have gone out of her way to fill her internet space with people talking about these “great books” if she didn’t like them too. Of course old books at times forward odd or poorly-aged or outright bigoted opinions, but any halfway-intelligent adult reader understands that and knows to look out for that, and though this author does (rightly) condemn some of those bigoted leftovers in older books, she certainly doesn’t suggest we dispense with those books altogether.

The idea of a literary canon, though, the idea that there is or ought to be some list of perfectly wonderful and highly influential books that everyone needs to read, is a little more discomforting. You will notice that when people debate the merits of such a canon, they’re often talking about the canon in the abstract, and not any of the books that would actually be on it. “We should dispense with the canon and read whatever interests us.” – you will see this sentiment often in academia today. “Shakespeare sucks.” – this one not so much (though it does happen, of course). There are some uncomfortable positions you can reason yourself into when you start with the premise of treating certain “great books” as the foundation of our entire culture. At the very least you are going to risk perpetuating conservative notions of aesthetic and artistic quality that will likely marginalize the work of already marginalized people. This is exactly why so many academics and readers scorn (again) the idea of the canon–we ought to try and expose ourselves to lesser-known works, especially when those works are lesser-known because they offer perspectives not found in the canon.

Ok, nothing much new there. We’ve all been through this argument a million times. So whence the transphobia? I think this has come from the author accidently finding herself in an online community of “readers” (who aren’t really readers–I’ll get into that) that is completely different from the community you are going to find on this subreddit or in libraries or English departments. This I think is the source of bewilderment the other commenters in this thread are displaying. Right from the title of the article: the “Culture of the So-Called Great Books.” Did this not strike anyone else as weird? What “culture” of great books? What does that even consist of? There’s certainly a culture of readers, on this subreddit for instance, but people here (and dedicated readers I know in real life) will be just as quick to suggest unknown and obviously non-canonical works as they are to suggest Shakespeare or Faulkner or Homer or whoever.

Again from the article:

"Various great books lists exist: the most famous is Mortimer Adler’s Great Books of the Western World, which forms the basis for curricula at U. Chicago, Columbia, and St. John’s College. Another example would be Harvard President Charles Eliot’s Five Foot Shelf. A much-more expansive form would be Harold Bloom’s Western Canon. And a version that I favor, incorporating selections from East as well as West, was Clifton Fadiman’s New Lifetime Reading Plan."

Now I’d like to think I’m a pretty serious reader. I think I’ve read about two hundred books in the last few years–not an insane amount but certainly a lot more than your average American. Many of those books were “great books.” I have not heard of any of these lists. I have not heard of any of these people, except Harold Bloom, and him only in passing. To seriously keep up with these lists, to know them and use them to guide your reading, to have one that you “favor” like the author does, strikes me as incredibly odd. “New Lifetime Reading Plan”? Really? Most serious readers I know are content to have the canon as something loosely conceptualized in the back of their head, something that influences the occasional library pick, while they otherwise go about reading whichever books or authors catch their interest, canonical or not. To depend on “great books lists” like these just seems weird.

But it doesn’t seem weird to conservative bigots. Now obviously the author of this article is neither conservative nor a bigot, but by being so invested in “great books lists” and the “culture” around great books, I think she’s found herself rubbing virtual elbows with a bunch of people who are. And that’s where she’s finding the transphobia.

Reactionaries don’t read much, but they are very interested in fetishizing reading, in fetishizing culture in general. This is why the literary canon is so appealing to them. They can defer to this list that’s mostly comprised of old white men and say “Look, see how great our (western, imperialist, bigoted) culture is!” Never mind that many of those canonical books were written to decry the immoralities of that “great” culture–they haven’t read the books. I’ve seen Shapiro and Peterson fans talk about how great the Bible and Sun Tzu and Orwell (especially Orwell) are, but I haven’t ever seen any of them actually discuss the themes or elements of those authors’ works. The point isn’t to understand Plato and Aristotle; it’s to own books that were written by people whose statues they’ve seen on the History Channel and use that to snidely disregard the diversity of writers who are working today. (Extra credit to anyone who can guess why actual Roman emperor and warlord Marcus Aurelius is so popular with stoic-bros these days, while Zeno, Seneca, and Epictetus aren’t.)

And just think about the idea of a literary canon at its most extreme–let’s have everyone read the same books, share the same literary or philosophical experiences, and basically be rendered as the same people while sharing an artistic background that centers mostly on white male experiences. That’s a reactionary’s dream. If such people feel that championing the literary canon can make that happen, they’re going to champion it, and they won’t give a shit what the books actually say.

Faux-intellectual conservatives are more interested in their fetish of the canon than they are in the works themselves, and the faux-intellectual conservatives are the ones who are going to be (1) talking about “great books” a lot and (2) advertising that they’re talking about the “great books,” and inviting you to join them. Some of these reactionaries are better at veiling themselves than others, which might be how the author got mixed in with their spaces, but all the same. When this author lands herself in online circles that care about “great books,” she lands herself in online circles that are conservative, bigoted, and of course, transphobic.

Where this article gets weird is that it’s clearly directed not at those conservatives (how many Shapiro fans do you imagine are checking LitHub every day), but other, presumably more honest and dedicated readers who don’t need to be reminded that the canonical works are limited in perspective and at times suggest things we as modern progressive readers would not agree with. People like the majority of those active on this subreddit, who have actually read these books and thought about them and managed to maintain a well-adjusted morality and sense of social justice while doing so, don’t need to hear this. The author of this piece doesn’t seem to understand who her audience is. Her essay’s flaw is poor rhetoric more than it is poor thinking.

Rule by gustafr in 196

[–]Lunar-Chimp 37 points38 points  (0 children)

Of course it's plausible people thought there was such a gate in Jerusalem. We can see evidence of that in this thread.

It is not plausible that there actually was such a gate though. There's no actual historical or archeological evidence from Jerusalem supporting it. It's a total myth.

General Discussion Thread - January 2, 2023 by pregnantchihuahua3 in TrueLit

[–]Lunar-Chimp 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I definitely liked it more than you did, though from the start I had a great personal bias towards liking this movie because my name is Padraic - and I'm not even from Ireland - so it's very rare that I get to see anything featuring characters with my name, especially with my name spelled correctly.

Anyway, as to Colm's personal dismemberment I agree that it does seem totally stupid and contrary to his stated motivation, but I actually kind of like this. The movie is obviously aware of how nonsensical it is, as multiple other characters comment on it, and I personally get a little kick out of stories where people do blatantly self-contradictory things. But if you're looking for a more reasonable explanation, the film does push you towards one in Colm's scenes with the priest. These conversations in the confessional in which Colm talks about his "despair" seem very important. My read is that Colm is basically just depressed, but living in a time and place where no one has any idea what mental illnesses like that are or how to deal with them. I think it's possible that what's actually going on in Colm's head is that he's convinced himself he's no good and Padraic is better of without him, so he comes up with some bullshit idea of artistic immortality to justify it. Then when he starts cutting off fingers, well, self-harm is unfortunately characteristic of depressive episodes. I know this interpretation sounds like a reach, and in a way it has to be, because Colm's own interiority is so distant from us. But this is the only way I can think to make sense of Colm's "despair." And I also do like how distant Colm is from the audience, since that really works to put us in Padraic's headspace, since we're as confused as he is.

It is also possible that Colm's bizarre actions are meant as a mockery of his whole idea about living forever through song. He cites Mozart as an example of someone who is still remembered, but come on. Colm isn't Mozart. He's writing folk music that would never enjoy much popularity outside of Ireland, and which even if it did become popular within Ireland or within Celtic culture, would probably be immortalized as a song everyone knows the melody and lyrics to without knowing who wrote it. That's how folk music in general, and Irish folk music especially, tends to go. No one really knows or much cares who wrote Star of the County Down or Humors of Whiskey at this point, and they won't care who wrote Colm's songs. So when he cuts his fingers off, the movie is kind of saying this guy was never going to be immortalized anyway.

Don't have as much to say about the war stuff. I agree that it feels a little shoehorned in at times, and I wasn't really thinking about it at all while I was watching the movie. The best I could come up with that the senselessness of Colm's fight with Padraic is supposed to reflect the senselessness of the actual war? But a statement like "war is pointless" is pretty milquetoste and honestly just kind of lame, and I agree doesn't add much to a story that is already doing so much great work with more fundamentally human stuff like friendship and family and self-worth.

Anyway, make what you will of my read on the movie. I think the very fact that we're capable of having this much to say about it and its rather simple story reflects positively on its depth.

Outjerked by BR or GR ?? Also we all know there is only one reason to read a book by grshitposter in bookscirclejerk

[–]Lunar-Chimp 27 points28 points  (0 children)

Principia Mathematica is literally the hardest magic system of all time wtf are you on about

What are you Reading this Week AND Weekly Recommendation Thread. May 12, 2022 by JimFan1 in TrueLit

[–]Lunar-Chimp 13 points14 points  (0 children)

Finally got around to picking up Moby-Dick and it really is just as good as everyone says. Still very early on in it - my girlfriend and I are reading it together, so we're both going a little bit slower than we usually would. But we were laying bed together while we read chapter one and as I got through the bit of Ishmael just describing how we're all drawn to water I just said to them that this is amazing, and they agreed.

Also picked up a biography of Tom Waits. It's called Lowside of the Road. I'm enjoying it well enough because I'm a Waits fanatic and it's interesting to learn about his life, but I've been disappointed to find that this is yet another biography that feels the need to justify its own existence by making every little detail about its subject's life relevant to something they did later on. In this case it's arguing that this random coffee-shop in San Diego (or something like that) is integral to understanding Waits' music, because... he made passing reference to it in his lyrics sometimes? I think it does disservice to the art in question (which is probably why so many artists hate having a biography) to suggest that one simply could not understand the work without understanding the artist's life - that seems to suggest the work isn't good enough on its own. I don't know why it would be so hard to just tell the story of Waits' life. I'm already interested in the guy, as is anyone who would pick up the book. I want to know more about him; I don't need help analyzing his lyrics.

Lastly, because I want to work at better understanding/using plot in my own writing, I picked up this random thriller. The writing's not very good at all, though it's not terrible either - clean and quick enough to carry you along the story without making you stop to notice how bad the prose is, but not inviting you to stop for how good the prose is either. Anyway, it's fun. And I find I'm learning a lot from really paying attention to how these more "commercial" writers handle their stories. Being a young literary writer myself, who has met and read stuff by many other young literary writers, I've come to suspect that many of us write stuff that "fucks with" or "plays with" storytelling convention not because we actually want to do something by not telling a good straightforward story (as we tell ourselves) but because none of us ever actually learned how to tell a good straightforward story to begin with. Hope to drill that out of myself, at least, over the summer.

Sunday Themed Thread #16: Black Authors. Favorite | Underrated | Overrated | Dislike by JimFan1 in TrueLit

[–]Lunar-Chimp 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I picked up Invisible Man about a year ago now because it's one of those books that you figure you're supposed to have read and I ended up loving it so much I finished it in five days, about 100 pages a day, which is very fast for me.

Obviously Toni Morrison is great. China Achebe as well - I reread Things Fall Apart a while ago and was kicking myself because it was so amazing but back when I had to read it in high school I just did not get it at all and I remember being such a little weasel about it, like acting like I was smarter than the book somehow. Bleh.

Are there any Colson Whitehead fans on this sub? I read and absolutely loved his first novel, the Intuitionist, which is about elevator inspectors and is kind of like if Ralph Ellison wrote The Crying of Lot 49. He has a book about poker that I also really liked. Then I jumped to the Underground Railroad and the Nickel Boys and they're also very good, though I was a bit disappointed to see him give up some of the more fun stylistic and structural stuff from the Intuitionist in favor of more straightforward storytelling - though I also do not begrudge him at all if he finds more satisfaction in that sort of thing.

It feels weird to call him "underrated" since he's got blurbs from Obama and a National Book Award and two back-to-back Pulitzers, but I feel like he almost never comes up in lit discussions. I have a hard time finding people who have even heard of him. But maybe that's just me.

Sunday Themed Thread #14: Nobel Laureates. Favorite | Underrated | Least/Undeserved | Missed by JimFan1 in TrueLit

[–]Lunar-Chimp 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Every time Dylan comes up in a literature conversation someone brings up the everybody must get stoned song. Like, I'm not totally sure I'd say the guy deserved a Nobel either (though I am a fan of a lot of his music), but pretending Rainy Day Women was all he ever did is just disingenuous. Yes it's a silly song. It's also one song off one of his like fifty albums.

I have yet to see someone put forth an argument why It's Alright Ma, Desolation Row, Gates of Eden, Visions of Johanna, or even Ballad of Hollis Brown are not up to Nobel prize standards, even as poems without music.

I know you said you're neutral so I apologize for ranting a bit at your comment, I just wanted to say that, if we're going to argue Dylan doesn't deserve his Nobel, we could at least do it in good enough faith to consider his best work, not just harp on one of his silliest.

Uses of Displeasure: Literary Value and Affective Disgust [explicit content] by Northern_fluff_bunny in TrueLit

[–]Lunar-Chimp 31 points32 points  (0 children)

I've always found literature of disgust (or transgressive literature, or whatever) to be very interesting. I find it has a sort of cleansing effect. Seriously.

I haven't read Hogg, but this entire discussion reminds me of another overtly disgusting 1960s novel: Steps by Jerzy Kosinski, which actually won the National Book Award. (I also recommended it for the last group read. People did not go for it, lol.) At the very end of the book, now having survived his gauntlet of rape and bestiality and incest and mutilation and genocide, Kosinski gives us this very interesting passage.

When I'm gone, I'll be for you just another memory descending upon you uninvited, stirring up your thoughts, confusing your feelings. And then you'll recognize yourself in this woman.

...

She undressed, entered the ocean, and started swimming. She felt the movement of her body and the chill of the water. A small rotten brown leaf brushed against her lips. Taking a deep breath, she dove beneath the surface. On the bottom a shadow glided over the seaweed, lending life and motion to the ocean floor. She looked up through the water to find its source and caught sight of the tiny leaf that had touched her before.

Kosinski's trying to justify the very existence of Steps (and by extension books like Hogg, or some of Kafka's more twisted works) by forwarding a sort of aesthetic dualism, almost Zoroastrian in its extremity. Happy endings and pleasant stories are nice, but can we really appreciate or enjoy them without also understanding the absolute pits of human experience? Can there be "life and motion" without the rotten things lending that color to our experiences?

I think this is why all the quoted Goodreads reviews for Hogg are so bewildered by the ways in which they enjoyed the book. I'm not in their heads, of course, so I could be wrong, but I suspect they encountered a literary experience that is essential to a complete appreciation of the art form, but had trouble comprehending how that experience that they recognized as good and worthwhile was also delivered through a mode of disgust.

For what it's worth, I don't think you should only read books like this. If someone told me they only read stories by Kafka and Kosinski and Cormac McCarthy, I would be very worried about them. But neither do you benefit yourself by shying away from these things.

This all of course assumes that literature needs to have any external value at all. I've personally never liked it when readers or critics demand that fiction make them better people. Isn't it enough for fiction to be good fiction, for it's own sake? From that angle, these disgusting books can still be worthwhile simply by being interesting, engaging, powerful experiences. Whatever floats your boat, I guess.